Overruling captain!

[u/Ok_Assistance69]

Just getting opinions here. Other night we had a well known psych patient who’s not only know to verbally accost medics/hospital staff, but can get aggressive. Delt with her multiple times where our local PD had her cuffed, hands on a taser. On scene for the THIRD time that week same patient, different captain (not mine, was working OT) and I told this captain “we’re going to need PD” Captain replied back “THIS IS NOT A PD ISSUE” very loud and aggressively I might add. I stated “she can get aggressive” he replied back “SHES NOT AGGRESSIVE”and he denied calling PD. Once she was loaded on the stretcher, she started to become verbally hostile, then and only then did the captain call PD. Then I was instructed to go to my patient. She started getting verbally hostile with me. I was told to get in the engine at this point and the other medics would run the call. PD followed the medic unit to our local ER.

Now, we all learned “BSI/scene safety” right? I always thought it was a medics discretion if it came to safety. KC firefighter died over a psychiatric patient after being stabbed by her. Another psych call, patient flew out the back doors and ended up being killed by a semi truck.

Does anyone think this needs to go up the chain? I feel mine AND my crews safety was compromised by a captain with a superiority complex and this captain has been known for his temper. His behavior was unprofessional, unacceptable and unbecoming an officer.

Opinions???

[u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530]

This is gonna sound harsh, so I apologize, but I think you’re looking at this all wrong. A lot of people are understandably agreeing with you, but I’d venture many of them haven’t worked in a true fire-based EMS system similar to the one you describe.

From what you say, you wanted this captain, who you don’t normally work with, to call PD for a (at that point in time) non-hostile patient. He refused. You stated she “can” get aggressive. She wasn’t at that time. When she did get aggressive, he called for them. He certainly could have done better/been more proactive, but he didn’t do anything that wrong. The scene was safe until it wasn’t, and when it wasn’t, he called PD. His understanding of the run may have been “PD will only aggravate this woman, don’t call unless needed”, and you simply saying, “We’re going to need PD”, isn’t going going to come anywhere close to changing that understanding. He doesn’t know what you know.

If you don’t normally work with this guy, he likely has zero reason to trust your judgement. Respect in the fire service (and this extends to fire based EMS and sometimes even single service) is earned, not simply conferred by a medic patch.

Really it just seems a big misunderstanding. You both clearly have different levels of acceptable risk, and both may have had different levels of previous knowledge of the patient, but his is the judgement that matters in the end, because ultimately, he is responsible for you. You should absolutely not take this up the chain. It’s not a good look to chiefs (who have been in this captain’s position) when a private questions an officer’s judgement. Let alone when the officer is somewhat right, and no one got hurt.

[u/Ok_Assistance69 → u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530]

The patient was hostile from the moment we arrived to scene, the point was she “CAN” get aggressive. Our EMS captain makes it known that yes, if you feel PD is needed, you get PD. Regardless of what said captain wants, at that point in time my red patch overrides his “bugles” just because you are a captain does not necessarily mean you are correct in ALL instances and negate safety due to being an “in charge” in fact, most captains here will immediately extinguish a possible threat. We work in a high crime area. At the end of the day, this captain put his crew in jeopardy. We have lost captains on less infractions. We are now in 2025, not 2005. Times have changed and this antiquated thought process of being above the policies or being a dictator gets people killed. I’m not willing to die over someone else’s decisions nor am I willing to subject my patch to revocation. No one was “hurt” but it’s best to be proactive, not reactive. The risk was still there.

[u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530 → u/Ok_Assistance69]

You asked for advice on whether you should take this up the chain. It really just seems like you only want people to validate your opinion. I see why you think you’re right, but I’m telling you the way the vast majority of your superiors will see this situation, along with how the captain will likely explain it, if anything came of your complaint (which probably wouldn’t happen, because nobody got hurt and FDs are notorious for avoiding issues until they’re immediately apparent).

Frankly, you’re dodging the point about communication on the way to the run. It’s unreasonable to expect an officer unfamiliar with you to make a tactical decision on the way to a run based solely on your input (input that’s possibly in contest with the info he has received from dispatch, and input they may have sounded somewhat dismissive of his rank m). You may not like it, but on the way to the run, he’s the one with the radio. That’s the way I see it at least, but I get how others might disagree.

Your only viable courses of action here are to talk to the captain about the misunderstanding, or just get over it. You have stated in other comments you have no interest in the former, so I would suggest the latter.

[u/Ok_Assistance69 → u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530]

Whatever you say. You must be “one of those” captains yourself with zero regard for your crew members. Nice talking to you though.

[u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530 → u/Ok_Assistance69]

I am a private, not a captain. Good luck with this battle. It will probably get you nowhere and earn you a reputation for insubordination you do not want among people whose opinions actually have weight.

Discussing it with him is the right thing to do, but if that is undesirable, try to let it go. It’s the only other way this whole thing won’t likely blow up in your face.

[u/10pcWings → u/Zestyclose_Crew_1530]

Crazy that OP ASKS for opinions at the end of his post and then responds like this when given an opinion that doesn't align with his own.

OP definitely does not want "opinions", anyone that truly wanted one would be much more open minded.

You're bringing up great points that should be at the minimum reflected on.