r/PhilosophyMemes • u/Widhraz Autotheist (Insane) • 2d ago
If you manage to overcome struggle because you enjoy it, are you then not a hedonist? Chekmate Nietzsche.
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u/JoeHenlee 2d ago
Some pleasures are only possible through displeasures (Beyond the Pleasure Principle)
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u/Hanisuir 2d ago
Hedonism is the prioritization of pleasure. Simply enjoying something isn't hedonistic.
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u/PlaneCrashNap 2d ago
So if you prioritize the struggle you find pleasure in then it's hedonistic?
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u/Hanisuir 2d ago
If you're prioritizing the struggle then you're prioritizing it, not the pleasure coming from it. Struggling to achieve things is normal.
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u/imbeingreallyserious metasexual post-hedonist 2d ago
Isn’t that kind of like seeking out heroin and saying “I’m not prioritizing pleasure, I’m prioritizing heroin?” Why else would you be seeking out heroin? If something about the struggle or its upshots weren’t enjoyable (pleasurable), would it really be worth doing?
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u/bigboymanny 21h ago
Is a heroin addict a hedonist? no theyre a heroin addict. Heroin addiction is not pleasurable. The addict pursues heroin to stifle the cravings and withdrawals, not for the virtue of pleasure.
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u/Hanisuir 2d ago
In that case the heroin is practically the pleasure. It's a thing that serves no purpose except pleasure, which isn't the case when it comes to struggling in general.
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u/Key-Exercise9706 1d ago
That is not objectively categorized though. You might derive great pleasure from sports fishing or watching race cars, while those activities would bore me to death. I am a sexual masochist on the other hand, and I have derived pleasure from activities many would definitely not find pleasurable at all.
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u/Hanisuir 1d ago
A thing that brings great pleasure isn't the same thing as something that serves no purpose except pleasure.
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u/Key-Exercise9706 1d ago
That depends on your own perspective though? If I, as a hedonist, do something with the objective of deriving pleasure from it, than that is all I care about, e.g. it becomes the only purpose for me.
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u/Hanisuir 1d ago
"If I, as a hedonist, do something with the objective of deriving pleasure from it, than that is all I care about, e.g. it becomes the only purpose for me."
That makes your personality a hedonistic one. That doesn't mean that others will take the same approach to that thing.
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u/Hey_its_a_genius 1d ago
That’s a somewhat arbitrary standard. This can’t boil down to a popularity contest. If I was the last person on the planet, my personality would be the only one to use as a standard, so really one can’t say that a personality is a hedonistic one without assuming there are objective metrics and comparisons between personalities.
The point of contention really lies with the definition of pleasure. I feel like this could’ve been stopped way further up by simply saying hedonism is the pursuit of first-degree pleasure as a result of actions. This way when one seeks heroin, you can say it’s for the pleasure since one would not get the heroin if pleasure were removed. However, if one seeks money, even if you don’t feel good directly by getting paid (which most people do) they would still seek the money because they desire the money itself in a first order perspective. Of course, take this down the road and it’s usually in service to “happiness” which is actually just pleasure for most people. The problem here would be fine tuning what “first-order” would specifically entail, but that seems much more reasonable, at least to me rn
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u/AnAttemptReason 1d ago edited 1d ago
We don't need to fish to eat in modern society, by that definition, fishing as a hobby is purely hedonistic.
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
And we don't need to eat either, it's just that we feel very bad when we don't eat and eventually die but we don't want to die because the idea doesn't feel good (to most people).
Hedonism is hidden in literally everything we do and all philosophy is really just semantics and tactics to reach the pleasure we seek.
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u/TheChunkMaster 1d ago
It's a thing that serves no purpose except pleasure
It's routinely used in medicine as a painkiller under the name "diamorphine".
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 1d ago
Not if you’re prioritizing it over other sources of equal or greater pleasure.
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u/PlaneCrashNap 1d ago
Is there something special about this specific pleasure that makes it not hedonistic?
Is it just that as long as you have a bit of pain too you can have your hedonism, but now it's a good thing and we're gonna call it something different?
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 1d ago
Hedonism isnt just enjoying yourself, it means youre making all your decisions so as to maximalize pleasure and minimize pain.
Though the ancient hedonists did think that a roughly stoic lifestyle was the best way to achieve this, as excess is unsustainable and self destructive.
But for Nietzsche life wasnt about maximizing pleasure but expressive power — and I think power here should be understood in the Spinozist sense of increasing ones ability to affect others and be affected. And struggle is how we increase power, as it kills off what is weak in us.
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u/asmallfatbird 1d ago
Everyone only does anything because it is what they want to do more than any of the alternatives. Classic Egoism win
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u/CriticismIndividual1 1d ago
I think everyone has at least a bit of hedonism in them.
Who here does not enjoy what they like?
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u/jancl0 1d ago
This is like the time I countered the Jordan Peterson worship argument by claiming that he's actually a hedonist. Anything you dedicate your life to must be something you enjoy, therefore hedonism is whatever you do, and all theists are actually hedonists
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
Who are you? Who is Jordan Peterson? What do you mean by worship? How do you define hedonism? What do you mean by life and what do you consider dedication? What is enjoyment to you? Who are your referring to when referring to theists?
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u/jancl0 1d ago
I can't tell if you expect me to answer all of those or if there's a joke here I'm missing
Nevermind, I'm dumb, it took me a couple seconds lol
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u/_-_-_-i-_-_-_ 1d ago
You need to think what would expecting someone to answer to look like to you and find the ultimate substrata of your archetypal superego to find its subjective connection to the joke you are missing in the face of the majestic but terrifying shadow of the collective unconscious in the form of the personalized fractal which manifests the universal into the particular which you are willing to carry your boat for.
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u/navyblue_140 1d ago
John Piper has an idea of "Christian hedonism" which agrees with this
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u/jancl0 1d ago
I guess I kind of agree with it too, but it's also an intentionally useless point. Me and Jordan Peterson are talking about exactly the same thing, exactly, but I called it hedonism and he called it thiestic worship. My point is that calling it worship doesn't automatically make it related to religion, which is what he tries to sneakily imply. I can make the same argument without ever bringing up god, so he has to justify why god is relevant
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u/Hefty-Pollution-2694 1d ago
That's actually a very good question and we can look at people that are "fixated" in self improving habits and behaviors - such as physical exercise, toxic positivity and overworking
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u/EccoEco 1d ago
I have some friends in the gym scene, expecially one who is a weight lifter, he really doesn't have the best opinion of bodybuilders and the "health" of that scene.
One has to make sure that caring for oneself and wishing to "better" oneself doesn't become a source of dismorphia for example.
The whole "bettering" oneself thing and how "accomplishing great things" is getting often equated with "get big" is getting a bit out of hand... I think it has something to do with a feeling of helplessness and reduced power and ability to have power on, influence, and have create accomplishments in the external "public" world, thus nudging many to overcomensate on the internal "private" world of the self and the body.
Dunno I could be tripping
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u/Lasiurus2 1d ago
Ok, some peoples reactions here have me confused. Is this not supposed to be a shitposting sub for philosophy memes? Are we supposed to be doing actual philosophy here?
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u/SupermanWithPlanMan Absurdist 2d ago
Me when everything is a struggle but also nothing is because that's my life's purpose or something
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u/Dunkmaxxing 1d ago
Well I don't get anything out of struggling/suffering, but I do live in aversion to suffering which is pretty much the same thing as seeking pleasure on a level, just not to the extent of actively pursuing more and more. Everyone is motivated by pleasure/lack of suffering, but I wouldn't call that the same as being a hedonist.
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