r/RadicalFeminism • u/DistractedCraftress • 8d ago
Questioning Islam's modesty clothing for women
From what I remember in this sub-reddit there have been some heated posts regarding Islam and modesty clothing (hijab, niqab etc. etc.).
Let me just clear up that I'm not a Muslim and I have no experience with the religion as a whole as I grew up in a mostly Christian country.
However, these questions have been lately on my mind:
Maybe this sounds stupid but do you think that these outfits may have functional and cultural influence other than Islam and modesty? Because it seems like they were always a good protection from the heat and sand such as long robes for men in Arabia and other countries with similar climate (yes I am aware that women's robes were also a thing e.g. in Afghanistan but women were forbidden to wear them) but the burqa for example seems really useful to wear in a desert climate and environment under specific environmental conditions (maybe way more rarely I wouldn't know how useful it would be). Do you think the complete abolition of them is needed? Because it just seems to me like in a perfectly equal society women could reclaim them as something functional and not as a sign of modesty and oppression. I just have been thinking are we talking of the complete abolition of such modesty garments only because of men? If men didn't factor in do you think women wouldn't be wearing them at all?
This was inspired by a reel from a source that I was unable to track that I watched some weeks ago. If I remember correctly it was an outfit used in Latin America by women to fight the colonization. The garment was banned because women were using them to gather information against the oppressors and they couldn't be hold accountable for it since they could never find the culprit. Maybe there's a way they could be used as a means of protecting anonymity and freedom in a world that is becoming more and more all about surveillance against activism. Something similar to modern day full-face masks for women but even better since now there are odds that the eyes and body could play a role for telling people apart.
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u/sudden_crumpet 8d ago
A long robe plus head- and face coverings would certainly protect a person from intense sun, wind and probably heat as well. Smaller eye openings could function a bit like the traditional Innuit 'sun glasses' as well. I think the ensemble would have functional advantages in harsh desert climates, for sure.
I also think an abundance of cloth would signal wealth in times when everything was handspun and -woven. Status helps attract the right alliances to a family in traditional societies where any social security a person might have would come from the (extended) family or maybe clan.
'Sheltering' women away from prying eyes could be another status signal. It shows that the family has enough resources to keep their women away from work outside the home (camp or compound).
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u/aliencreative 8d ago
- In our ideal radical world- I would imagine we can embrace religion in a human centered way because religion is important for humans. If that’s even possible.
It’s really hard to tell because to me what I see is such radical misogyny in that culture. I don’t think it started that way from what I’ve gathered but in the current world, it would have to take so much for those women to be able to not wear those coverings if they really want to. They didn’t always have to wear them.
Since we are talking about Islamic countries that would imply severe restructuring depending on the country. For females to really be able to choose without repercussion. That’s a loaded question friend 😆 of course here we are talking about the PRESENT TIME Islamic countries that oppress their women.
There’s already a lot of unrest within some of those communities- the women refusing to wear those garments though not all. I believe I saw this in Afghanistan ?? I could be wrong and talking out my ass... However it seems like the great majority is very much into their religion and are of the belief that allah wants this for them, so they wouldn’t do this UNLESS there was such a great amount of upheaval, undoing of that indoctrination and brainwashing - it would have to be monumental for Islamic women en masse to decide not to cover their head. MY OPINION. It would have to be a lot of them deciding this. It would take a long time given the collective trauma those women and their genes have experienced.
I feel bad making these statements as is because there’s just so much religious propaganda in ALL religions and we are also socialized with our own biases. The extent that women in Islam specifically are brainwashed sickens me. I’m mostly talking about the extreme sects but uh- definitely applies to Islam as a whole. I could go on and on but not all women in Islam can make their own choices EVEN if they are “given” the choice, in or outside of the Middle East or Islamic countries. If the choice was genuine I would HOPE they would burn their hijabs but their love and devotion of their religion is astounding even for me. And many more in western or liberated countries still do choose to wear coverings. This question does not have 1 answer. Sorry.
- I am very very confused about this outfit. It would help if you attached a picture. Sounds like a face covering but you said it’s an outfit? Was the outfit like a spy espionage outfit that made it seem like any woman who wore it looked the same? I’m just confused. I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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u/DistractedCraftress 8d ago
No no I'm aware that women in these countries and many western ones are pressured and even when they are supposed to have a choice they don't. I'm just trying to ask by looking up to the abolition of these garments are we truly dismantling a wrong system or are we catering to men? Because men are the problem in this situation no? If they didn't exist this wouldn't be a problem. Like think about it if they stopped existing today would the women care about what they are wearing? Yes I get that you are saying that they would be furious and mad initially (and ofc it's so normal) and may burn their hijabs and celebrate their freedom but would it just completely stop existing or would they embrace it in a non misogynist or modest way? And I just think the moment we cater to men we are kind of losing the point... Because no matter what we do men are always gonna try push the modesty ideology. No matter the cloth or religion. That's what I meant initially.
- About that outfit. From what I remember it was just a traditional outfit with something like a head covering or like a hood and only one eye was showing. I tried to find it but I couldn't yet.
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u/Firm_Effective967 7d ago
Men also seem to dress modest in many male Islamic outfits I don’t know a ton about it though, I think that’s the least of the problems though they have more severe misogyny problems than just clothing, many of the women actively want to wear them for religious purposes.
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u/DistractedCraftress 7d ago
Yes I feel like that could also be a step towards some kind of equality between men and women in Islam. Like I don't think modesty is necessarily bad. A person can be modest as in a character trait and it's a positive thing. I don't think that Islam as a religion is wrong for telling women that they don't make-up or they don't need jewelry and the character and soul matters. I just think the religious teachings became misogynistic the moment they didn't impose the same standards on men. And of course patriarchy is to blame for exaggerating the already misogynistic teachings of this religion.
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u/Gayandfluffy 7d ago
But if it is for protection, why are men walking around in T-shirts and without a head cover? I agree that clothing protect against the sun but there has to be more to it since clothing rules for women are stricter.
Also when talking a bout the burqa, I didn't find definite origins from it just from googling, but a "tent" with a net in front of the eyes is a rare form of dressing that seems to be from pashtu culture in Afghanistan. And it's mostly mountains and rivers there, and the desert area and pashtu area don't overlap a lot.
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u/laurentinaxx 5d ago
Actually when Islam first emerged there were no hijabs. According to a Hadith source, Mohammad was jealous of one of his wives or something like that. So he just told all women to cover up. I can try to find the source if you’re curious.
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u/TrademarkHomy 3d ago
To me these issues are VERY contextual. I'm sure these garments were largely functional in specific times and places, and potentially still are in some climates. Personally I don't see 'abolition' of modest garments as a goal in itself, but abolition of ideologies that require or value modesty as a function of control over women.
Wearing a garment that protects your skin in a climate where that is necessary is just a sensible choice.
Rejecting modest garments can be liberating and empowering for women who are pressured to wear them by institutions, their state or their community.
Wearing a garment that feels comfortable and hides your figure can be liberating and empowering for women who exist in a culture that expects women to constantly be aware of and give strangers visual access to their bodies.
This is something you'll often hear fashion historians talk about: modern clothing shows off your body in a way that just wasn't the case for most of history. I don't think not wanting your body to be visible in public is always something we need to free ourselves from, it's a normal human impulse. Of course modesty and fashion are constructs, but I don't think we can fully deconstruct them and we don't necessarily have to; I think there is a way for those constructs to exist while being morally neutral, if that makes sense? To be concrete, I personally wear a 'modest' swimsuit for swimming, with a top that doesn't show the shape of your entire nipples and a little skirt. To me that is far more liberating than a tiny bikini that needs constant readjustment and makes me constantly aware of how I'm sitting and moving around. And while I dislike the feeling of wearing a face mask, to me there was absolutely something kind of comfortable about the feeling of more privacy and not subconsciously monitoring your facial expressions when in public. I can absolutely imagine other people finding that kind of comfort with e.g. wearing a hijab.
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u/sxugna 8d ago
Hijab wasn’t originally about desert protection it was used to separate free Muslim women from slave women (who weren’t allowed to veil and were physically beaten if they did, they were often kept shirtless because their “awrah” was the same as men ) basically a status marker that later got religiously enforced. If it were truly functional, Muslim women in humid countries, freezing countries, or rainy tropical wouldn’t still be pressured to wear it, it’s not practical in a lot of places, it’s about modesty control. Seriously you can’t even swim without the clothes being safety hazard. Sure you can wear it as some sort of fashionable clothing but that’s not what it is. Hijab is invalid that way. Hijab is supposed to be plain and it comes with a lot of stuff like not walking in heels too loud (attracts men), not speaking softly, not beautifying yourself (makeup, jewelry) in front of non mahrams (male guardian/family) etc. There’s also hijab when it comes to mahrams and even your father, basically navel to the knees. (The same awrah as males everywhere) You’ll hear many Shiekh saying to not wear stuff in front of ur father because “satan exists” and could put stuff in his mind blah blah what this ultimately leads to is victim blaming which you see a lot of already. Every con outweighs the pros of hijab. ( which are barely any)