r/RimWorld • u/ryanasmith94 slate • 1d ago
PC Help/Bug (Vanilla) Bionic Arms Don't Replace Trotter Hands?
Got a great pigskin raider, dropped him, converted, recruited, he's a good constructor, miner, planter, handler, and shooter. Not great at anything but covers so many bases. Amazing early on and has been clutch.
But I noticed even with high construction skill he still botches fairly often, and his aim with an excellent charge rifle is pretty ass compared to others. So I went looking and turns out, yeah, these trotter hands are making things difficult. Okay, with the colony lacking any missing limbs/major scars, we've got a prime candidate for our first bionics.
But I've installed them and his new bionic arms don't cancel out the genetic trotter hands modifier? What? Did we waste advanced components making bionic pig arms for this guy? What the hell? At least they get him up to 100% but how are his no longer attached hands still relevant at all?
Edit: Update to say his archanotech eye is a waste as well since his nearsightedness is a flat miss chance modifier. This game is so silly.
Edit 2: Went to dev mode and removed all genes, and I'll just play with Biotech off from now on.
Edit 3: To direct the remaining discussion, if Elongated Fingers is the in-game solution for Trotter Hands, is there an in-game solution for Nearsighted?
Edit 4: Thank you to u/Birrihappyface for the detailed explanation on how this part of biotech works. Link for those like me who haven't figured out genes.
660
u/CaptchaSolvingRobot 1d ago
It would kinda be free metabolic rate if you could pick negative genes and then replace the bodypart it should affect.
But yeah, I get that it doesn't make sense, too.
579
u/MWKhan It puts the lotion on its skin 1d ago
Heres how I see it. His genetics give him trotter hands so a part of this brain tells him he only has two fingers... Ya give him more he just groups them because thats how his brain works. *crab pinchy noises* Just because they wire you up to a battleship it doesn't mean you will instinctually control every component perfectly. =)
286
u/ryanasmith94 slate 1d ago
Everything you've said makes complete sense, I understand and see your point. But when Anomaly makes people grow extra tentacle limbs that increase their manipulation I find this a hard pill to swallow. :/
261
u/RedLikeTigers 1d ago
A tentacle is implied to be semi-autonomous/sentient, since if you cut it off it can attack you, but by being connected to your body it can understand your intentions of what you want the tentacle to do, and a tentacle you could argue is more dexterous than an arm
22
u/hiddencamela 1d ago
Apparently it's like that for Octopus/squids as well. Their tentacles partly have a brain, but probably not full sentience. Just enough to be like "I want to grab this ", and it knows to reach and activate things around that command.
56
u/steve123410 1d ago
Archeotech limbs are a perfect replica of your natural arm. If you have trotter hands it will create trotter hands.
Bionic limbs are using nuerogel to connect to your nervous system. If your brain is wired for trotter hands then it will use those inputs (or it's malfunctioning with reduced efficiency whatever you want with your head cannon).
Tentacle limbs are flesh beasts "integrated" into the body replacing the limb. I guess horax hates pigs or something.
16
48
u/JulianSkies 1d ago
Well, someone with tentacle arms and trotter hands STILL has reduced manipulation.
23
13
u/Penguinmanereikel Survived Rimworld's greatest predator: the Yorkshire Terrier 1d ago
The tentacle is sentient. It's not their own limb. Proven by what happens when you try to remove the tentacle.
3
u/Nataslan 1d ago
OK but on the other side you would remove the genie finger gen (sry to lazy to look up the name)
1
-6
u/Old_Shake3789 1d ago
It's their coping mechanism just so they don't have to admit that the devs are kinda lazy and rush shit out alot without fixing them..
26
u/Hilonio 1d ago
Funny enough, it's been proven that human brain adapts to additional fingers extremely fast.
2
u/Melodic-Hat-2875 1d ago
Woahohoh, what? I need some sauce and some extra fingers
0
u/Hilonio 1d ago
Well, you can google it, but additional robotic thumb that reads either muscle movement of neurons was tested and most of the tested people (98%) learned how to use it at same lvl as other regular fingers.
Also there are people with additional fingers who don't have problems with their life
2
u/thejenot 1d ago
TBF its controlled by your toes, there is no fancy neuron reading technology involved, just two pressure plates in shoes, unless there is another research I don't know about.
With polydactyly it's huge hit and miss, and much more often your additional fingers are useless and/or detrimental than useful.
2
u/ward2k 1d ago
Not really, human bionics are currently really bad. Even 5 finger hands people have real issues controlling and it requires a lot of manual thought to move fingers
Try and move your toes individually, one by one in a similar way as you would your fingers. For the overwhelming majority of the population you can't, not without a tonne of training. Simply because millions of years of evolution have meant that your brain and nerves can't communicate as fluidly as you can with your fingers
You can't just stick extra fingers on your hand. Sure with a shit tonne of mental effort you could move them, but it's borderline useless since you wouldn't be able to use them with any kind of fluidity
-5
u/Penguinmanereikel Survived Rimworld's greatest predator: the Yorkshire Terrier 1d ago
Well, it's not a human, it's a pig.
21
u/Hilonio 1d ago
They all are different human races as they can reproduce with baseliners.
-11
u/Penguinmanereikel Survived Rimworld's greatest predator: the Yorkshire Terrier 1d ago edited 1d ago
So, they're pigs with a nutsack stapled on. That don't make dem damn xenos human. /s
14
u/Melodic-Hat-2875 1d ago
I don't know which part of this is sarcastic but technically every xenotype is still human, just... not homo sapien.
I find it a really cool part of Rimworld's "lore" that aliens don't exist, only human beings.
17
u/dnanalysis 1d ago
There’s a video of a women with a cybernetic hand who can rotate endlessly 360 degrees and still operate her hand when it’s not attached to her body.
OP has a solid point.
3
1
u/MagicRobo 1d ago
I feel like integrated implants could handle this well, allowing them to adapt overtime, like people do to extra arms
57
u/Sensitive-Respect-25 1d ago
Its not free, it allows you to use resources and time to craft out a solution and in return gain free trait points.
Helps you zero early game. Makes life easier late game.
Now I want to be able to harvest the leftover trotter hands and add them to captured unwavering prisoners. Thus having a supply of regular hands to attach to non unwavering prisoners. And therefore allowing me to replace those second hand hands with biotics.
20
u/ThisWasMade 1d ago
You are disturbed in a flavor that tickles certain parts of society best left untickled. I'm the same way.
9
u/BrandNewCarr 1d ago
"We're not so different you and I. The rim is cold, relentless. You run your pig arm replacement factory, and I my min maxed child organ farm. Society is disgusted by us, while worshipping their almighty silver."
3
u/SomeGuyOfTheWeb 1d ago
This is cancelled out as you can implant xenogerms late game. So a late game mechanic colony could be given a bunch of trotter hand genes to make themselves even less hungry
1
u/clayalien 1d ago
Biotech's way of balancing genes is just really weird and janky like that. Its got all sorts of weird cases and closest with the trait system awkwardly. It never made a whole lot of sense to me and just serves to make even more hyper optimised grey sludge power creep 'must haves' that push a small set of winning combos even further.
I know its by far the most popular, but its actually my least favorite dlc. Someone's made a comment on making all genes cosmetics only, and im pretty tempted by that. If there was a way for it to just impact traits, Id love to see that too.
37
u/Glittering_Sorbet187 1d ago
Isnt that fair though? If youre willing to put the time and resources into crafting bionics you should get the "free" metabolic rate, because it's not free, you paid- both in the resources to get the bionic, and in the medicine to do the operation and time spent out due to anesthetics.
8
u/ryanasmith94 slate 1d ago
That's how I saw it! I just went into dev mode and manually turned everyone into baselines except for their aesthetic traits. That's my solution.
1
u/hottestdoge slate 1d ago
Well the reward for using bionic implants are the statboosts. Anything would be free.
7
u/Zethos60 1d ago
I mean, you can already do that with nuclear stomach. Non-senescent and -5 metabolic efficiency with a nuclear stomach is my late game go-to
4
u/FigurativelyShaking 1d ago
Yet I can give my super soldiers the extra pain gene and then install a painblocker and also get the "Free" metabolic rate. Painblockers are WAY cheaper than biotic arms.
Hell I have a body mastery creepjoiner that is at +5 metabolic rate with the extra sleep just to keep his boons from pushing him over the +5 max. He never eats and never sleeps either way so 3x hunger rate and 180% sleep rate mean absolutely nothing to him.
But the thing is even with a full genelab online I still never want to take Germline colonists because a lot of their genes just suck and either have no baseliner gene you can give them to override them (like nearsighted of naked speed) or the gene you need to give them to override is taking the place in the xenogerm of genes you actually want to give them.
2
u/Midget_Stories 1d ago
I like to think when it's replaced with bionics, it's a bionic trotter hand.
2
u/pupbuck1 1d ago
But by this logic elongated fingers should also stack with bionics
10
u/Brett42 1d ago
They do stack.
1
u/pupbuck1 1d ago
Oh that's neat...I don't think they should but glad to know it's both ways
5
u/SpartanAltair15 1d ago
Why wouldn’t they? The person is used to having 8 inch long fingers so you just lengthen the fingers on the arm or build it that way from the start and you’re golden.
2
u/Striking-Currency270 1d ago
Extra pain and delicate with Painstopper.
1
u/Glittering_rainbows 1d ago
Delicate isn't cancelled out at all by painstopper, they're still suffering the increased damage and will lead to them going down or outright dying quicker.
1
u/Striking-Currency270 23h ago
Oh, so it’s just Extra Pain cancelled out then? If that’s the case that’s still “free” metabolic rate no?
1
u/Glittering_rainbows 18h ago
Painstopper just stops a pawn from going down due to reaching their pain threshold. Delicate will make it so their body takes damage faster and if their moving goes below 0% they'll go down no matter what due to leg/spine/brain damage or their torso/head getting destroyed faster than they otherwise would.
Delicate simply isn't free under any vanilla circumstance. You are correct extra pain is free if paired with a painblocker.
1
u/CaptainCasp 13h ago
I'd say it's not, because as with any pawn, a painstopper entails an increased death risk because they won't go down wounded. I think logically it just makes sense too for a painstopper implant to block pain, no matter how much of it you genetically feel.. Whereas with the bionic, there's likely little use in giving a person with trotters a fingered bionic hand. Say you got your arm replaced and they put a hand with 12 long ass fingers on it, which part of your brain would you use to control them?
1
u/elanhilation 1d ago
non-senescent and major cellular instability combo is even sillier, and that’s permitted
134
u/Hairy-Dare6686 1d ago
Bionic limbs don't override genes even if it doesn't make sense. Trotter hands can be overwritten with the elongated fingers gene though.
76
u/SamtheCossack 1d ago
It does kind of make sense. Think of it as if you got a prosthetic limb with 8 fingers. You couldn't really use them properly, your brain isn't wired to control that.
61
u/bernlack 1d ago
Or the bionic limb they made ALSO had trotter hands, specifically for that guy
22
u/Penguinmanereikel Survived Rimworld's greatest predator: the Yorkshire Terrier 1d ago
Yeah, I think this is where the suspension of disbelief is supposed to take us.
9
7
u/Half-PintHeroics 1d ago
It's the same feature that makes left and right bionic limbs interchangeable :D
3
u/Stalking_Goat 23h ago
Headcanon: part of the extra dexterity from bionic arms is that the fingers all flex either direction. (That is, real fingers can only curl inwards, not outwards, but the bionic fingers lack that limitation.) So you could just hook the arm on to either shoulder.
8
u/ObsidianLegend 1d ago
Idk, it's not really wired to control 5 of them when you're born, or to control a pencil or a toothbrush, but people DO learn how to do those. I think most people could learn how to control eight fingers. Maybe pigskins are built different though
6
u/toukhans 1d ago
Well since real people could get used to the sixth finger prosthetic thing, this is demonstrably not true
1
u/ryanasmith94 slate 1d ago
But with Anomaly, growing a new prehensile tentacle limb is something your brain can totally handle, and even increases manipulation.
/s I don't know it seems pretty silly to me.
19
u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 1d ago
The tentacle has a mind of their own tho, they can attack you if you cut them off. Basically the tentacle is an Heretic extra autonomous limbs helping you around
6
u/JulianSkies 1d ago
Tbh the anomaly Dark Archotech stuff also drives you insane (modelled through moodlets).
Your brain can definitely not handle it.
3
u/Snowscoran nutrient paste dispenser 1d ago
Tentacle limbs, much like bionics, do not override trotter malus.
1
u/Glittering_rainbows 1d ago
That's kinda BS reasoning. We have the ability to control a computer's cursor with our mind assuming we have the proper equipment set up to do it.
There is a mod (integrated implants) where you can install extra limbs but you get a negative modifier to your melee and manipulation for the first 6 months due to "acclimation" when installing extra arms. A system like that would be perfect for all bionics imo.
99
u/Hates_Worn_Weapons Inhuman cultist 1d ago
His brain is still wired for trotter hands. You'll need to get him elongated fingers in a xenogerm to un-do his trotter hands.
1
u/Flying_Slig 21h ago
Honestly being a long-fingered pig-person should give a very, very large social debuff for all the other colonists.
-11
u/randCN 1d ago edited 1d ago
14
u/SpartanAltair15 1d ago
If you're going to snark at several different people with a 3 year old bug that has long since been fixed without ever checking for yourself, I'm going to return the favor and reply multiple times.
12
u/No-Risk666 1d ago
They're bionic trotters. I think of it this way. if a being evolved to have 3 fingers on each hand and replaced it with an artificial one. Why would they add extra fingers?
2
u/ward2k 1d ago
Exactly, imagine someone attached some extra fingers to your hand, you wouldn't be able to use them correctly or at least not nearly as well as you could typical fingers since your brain just literally doesn't have the wiring for that
Try and manually put one finger down, for each finger on your hand. Pretty easy right? Now try and do the same for your toes. As soon as you try and bend a single toe, all the other toes try to bend with it. Your nerves and brain just aren't wired to do it
9
u/Birrihappyface Traits: Redditor 1d ago
There are other ways to manipulate genes. Genes are the only alway to reliably get someone to level 20 in a skill, and they also have some extraordinary upsides to them, but some also have painful downsides. One important factor is the fact that conflicting genes can override eachother, with the xenogenes taking priority. If you were to gene extract a Genie and get “Elongated Fingers” you could apply a xenogerm with that to a pigskin to overwrite their trotter hands. Important to note is the fact that Germlines and Xenotypes are different things.
Germlines are Impids, Neanderthals, Pigskins, Wasters, and Yttakin. These are passed down to offspring, and applying a xenogerm can suppress conflicting genes, but can’t do anything about ones that have no conflicts.
Xenotypes are Highmates, Starjacks, Genies, and Hussars. Applying a xenogerm to one of these will completely overwrite their previous status. Giving one of these a xenogerm with “Brown Hair” will result in a baseliner with brown hair.
1
u/ryanasmith94 slate 16h ago
I just want to say thank you for explaining this. There is an in-game solution for the problem I had, I just didn't delve deep enough to find it.
From what people have said and from what I've been able to find out on the wiki, there doesn't seem to be an 'opposite' gene for nearsighted that cane overwrite it? Would love to understand more on that particular gene.
2
u/Birrihappyface Traits: Redditor 16h ago
Unfortunately, you’re correct. There is no competing gene for nearsighted. I typically have my nearsighted colonists serve as melee units or give them incinerators, which are unaffected by aim.
Either that, or once you have the technology to genemod people you go into dev mode and just take nearsighted off of their germline.
2
u/ryanasmith94 slate 15h ago
Thank you for the response! Been trying to wrap my head around this update since this post.
5
u/Deathcommand Mental Break: Corpse Obsession 1d ago
Think of it like the genes make it so the body can only control hands as if they were trotter hands.
3
u/UniversalExploration 1d ago
It both makes sense to a degree and is very annoying at the same time. Elongated fingers can counteract the trotter hands but I don't know of anything that overwrites near sighted. Either one I would say using the dev mode to get rid of the gene after surgery would be a great idea.
3
3
u/Lemontreeguy 1d ago
Think of it like this, his brain is wired to control a split hoof. Slap a bionic arm on him and and the mofos holding his fingers together on each side and using it like a hoof. Lol
3
2
u/jackochainsaw 1d ago
Unfortunately there is not a gene to replace trotter hands with human hands. You could replace them with elongated fingers from the genie set of genes, or claws which exist as a separate gene. Sadly there is no baseliner hand gene.
2
2
2
u/Kenichi37 1d ago
I assume it more so has to do with the brain and nerve wiring they can't do more then they were already capable of even if the new arm comes with a whisk attachment
2
u/ajanymous2 Hybrid 1d ago
nearsighted isn't that bad
give him a chain shotgun instead
those hit hard and have short range, so his eyesight is sufficient
2
u/Gwyllie Ate a table +10 1d ago
Yet another reason why that xenotype is just bad as a colonist.
Honestly its one of my main issues with Biotech. Majority of xenotypes are basically better raiders but really shitty colonists compared to baseliners.
2
u/Stretop Archotech mechanoid/flesh intergration enthusiast 1d ago
Which just further stimulates you to get your xenogerm production up and going and design your own "ideal colonist" xenotype.
2
u/HopeSpecific8841 1d ago
Yeah there's a big split here between people who interact with the xenogerm production stuff and people who don't.
If you interact with it it's one of the coolest and tbh blatently overpowered mechanics added by a DLC, anyone can become a super soldier or giga crafter etc.
If you totally ignore it then, well, you end up with pigmen crafters in your colony lol.
1
u/Gwyllie Ate a table +10 1d ago edited 1d ago
Except one still needs like ten mods to have this feature working as it should and actually behave as if you had xenotypes and not just random mutants that cant produce stable offspring. Or can come from outside if you create xenotype at the start.
So much wonky stuff with genes in Biotech its not even funny.
1
u/Stretop Archotech mechanoid/flesh intergration enthusiast 15h ago
True. But still - it provided modders with the ability to create so much fun stuff.
I, for one, now use massive arrays of prison medical cells inhabited by inmates with "catastrophic genetic instability" and "dead calm" (just so they stop trying to escape) to try and get all the interesting genes via "genetic bruteforce" method.
1
u/Extension-Pain-3284 1d ago
You also can’t equip gloves or hand a lot items with bionic arms, but that’s more of a silly mod conflict I think.
1
u/Chese_cheese 1d ago
So think like of how prosthetics look the same as the original so that's similar
1
1
u/NominallyCorrect 1d ago
The archotech eye is sort of wasted as there isn't really a counter to the nearsighted gene-wise (at least not without mods but more about that at the bottom), but for future instances you can collect the elongated finger gene from a trader or from genie prisoners and implant that in a pigskin which will override trotter hands.
Usually if I get a pigskin that I want to convert, they get elongated fingers and a short range weapon (usually pump or chain shotgun) as the impact of nearsighted is lessened in those cases, and I'll throw in a bionic eye if I'm late enough in the game to easily make adv components. That leads to a -2 hit to metabolism so I'll pair it with 1 awful skill gene (whichever I have that aligns with a skill they aren't using) and it'll balance out.
1
1
1
1
1
u/Melodic-Hat-2875 1d ago
On the flipside, this means bionic arms work with elongated fingers from genies for the +10%
1
u/DescriptionMission90 1d ago
The bionics faithfully replicate the structure of the original trotter to eliminate any discomfort or unfamiliarity.
You're welcome.
1
u/__T0MMY__ sandstone 1d ago
Lmfao "ah yes I've been looking for a new arm to replace these shitty hooves!"
Bionic arm still has two toes
1
u/florpynorpy 1d ago
I do like the idea that whoever made the bionic arms knew they were for a pigskin and as a prank designed them with trotter fingers
1
1
u/rezamazino 1d ago edited 1d ago
use tentacles? or xenogene implant smooth tail and elongated fingers?
1
1
u/Ale_ImNotAlive 1d ago
Biotech is the problem... And the solution. Harvest elongated fingers gene. And implant on the pig. First time bothers me too. But the point of genetics on the game is that, sometimes you get to be tough. Other times you simply get literal cancer at 4 x rate
1
u/Dfray011 10h ago
Archaotech eyes and they will still be nearsighted too.
I headcannon that the bionics can't change their nervous system without genes
1
u/Alarming-Algae-6816 3h ago
You can go quite far min-maxing genes. I did a post a little while ago with my gene setups while playing Odyssey, if you want an example. https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/1mirsia/i_have_seen_anyone_with_a_gene_editing_setup_on/
I've since changed them to have 1 less great skill/1 more awful skill to not need extra hemogen drain anymore. Adding hemogen drain was an experiment for this run, and I felt like it made the prisoner-to-colonist ratio a bit off.
1
u/XelNigma Apocalypse Survivor 1d ago
Yah, sadly the gene and bionic system dont interact with each other. I feel like the genes was the weakest part of the biotech. Just about everything about genes imo was done wrong.
The first thing I do on a new colony is replace the alien factions with the base game factions.
If I knew how to code at all I would at least attempt to make a genes overhaul mod that changes just about everything about them.
3
u/Stretop Archotech mechanoid/flesh intergration enthusiast 1d ago
> the gene and bionic system dont interact with each other
They do. Kinda. Some (usually - modded) genes instead of just applying flat modifiers to pawn's statistics create hediffs on said pawn's bodyparts. And such hediffs get overridden by bionics replacing those parts.
1
u/EmbarrassedW33B 1d ago
Yea, the fact they didnt make the bionic system more in depth with Biotech was a huge missed opportunity. They are two systems thst absolutely should interact heavily
1
0
u/HugeBob2 1d ago
The concept of genes and genetic modification is very cool. The implementation tough is a bit ass...
231
u/obsequious_fink 1d ago
Your engineer was kind enough to create bionic arms that replicated his natural form