r/SS13 • u/Independent_Ask_2535 • 5d ago
General All 18+ servers should be privatized off the HUB due to its easy accessibility to minors.
I don’t really know how to deal with the current issue of minors already accessing the servers, this is just a bandaid I guess.
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u/E_T_0646 5d ago
I think it's a more reasonable idea than "We should ban ERP servers because insert long paragraphs about how sex is yucky and bad servers losing members to them" or "I think you need to risk your identity stolen to gain access to the server"
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u/Forward_End_5726 4d ago
"the hub is 90% porn, we just cant stand whats happening to this game anymore..." (10000 downvotes)
"LOOOOOOL YOU CANT HANDLE SEX!!!!"
"YOU JUST NEED TO SHUT UP AND LET US USE THIS GAME AS FURRY PORN!!!!"
"WE ALSO SHOULDNT AGE VERIFY AT ALL!!!!!" (10000 upvotes)
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u/E_T_0646 4d ago
And you summed up the subreddit's opinion on ERP perfectly. "It's yucky and anyone who doesn't want to show their ID must be into children"
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u/Equivalent-Scene9293 5d ago
Totally, there is almost nothing wrong with them, but people will always find something to bitch about.
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u/E_T_0646 4d ago
Yep. Since I see paragraphs of shit not exclusive to ERP servers. Badmins? That's not exclusive to ERP servers. Creeps? That's not exclusive to ERP servers either, and I'm willing to bet that the only reason why they're seen as more prevalent is because they think they're allowed to be more open about it.
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u/Irish-roach-in-house 1d ago
Personally I just find it a bit ‘odd’ on ss13? Like I know it’s an RP game but nearly all servers have really simple sprites. A character going right-left right-left to another lying down just seems like a Roblox player messing around.
That’s why I find it weird. Just do it in a game with more detailed movements and graphics! Not the space pixel game where every server has super simple sprites. (usually)
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u/Snowflakish 1d ago
The services that check ID for age are the same 2 services you are already signed up with in order to do online banking.
If you have Monzo, you have already signed up with Persona, the ID provider for Reddit.
This poses no additional risk for the majority of people.
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u/Knees0ck 4d ago
Do minors really go out of their way to play a niche obscure 2003 online game or is this another "for the kids" type of deal?
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
There's a minor in this thread trying to argue against online verification that accidentally outed themselves not knowing you need your ID to pay a bunch of your bills
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u/Thorn-of-your-side 1d ago
I genuinely am surprised to hear minors wouldn't rather get into emulation for free games or something like Helldivers for online gaming.
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u/Crafty_Economics_847 21h ago
Yes.
Ease of access
Decent platform
That’s all there is to it
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u/Kenju22 19h ago
Ease of access...it took me the better part of a month with multiple youtube guides just to figure out how the hell to get Beyond to work.
Not sure about it being a decent platform given last time I checked the majority of servers are still getting DDOS attacked the hell and back as they have for the last 6 months.
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u/StooNaggingUrDum 4d ago
Do server admins have any control over their server visibility? (I have no clue how BYOND works, all I know is it's really old and likely has design issues)
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u/Podszywacz 4d ago
Host can de-list the server from HUB
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u/StooNaggingUrDum 4d ago
Why won't the hosts do that? Are they aware anyone can join an NSFW server without ID?
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u/WereBoar FURRY GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD 4d ago
a lot of 18+ servers choose to show on the hub so that players attempting to connect get directed to their server discord in order to apply to be whitelisted. it's a form of advertisement without the general admission and in my experience quite a few actually have required strict age verification to be allowed in.
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u/Podszywacz 4d ago
Idk, some hosts de-list their servers from the hub, and leave a link or IP to join the server on the wiki/forum/discord. I saw it being done on HRP servers during major round events, since high pop could attract griefers and such.
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u/ChinaAppreciator 5d ago
We asked Lummox to change BYOND's TOS to mandate this and he incorrectly asserted that he would get sued if he do that. Unfortunately he's kind of an idiot in this regard and will not do this even though it's gross and creepy.
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u/GriffinMan33 I map sometimes, I guess 4d ago
I don't think it's fair to call him an idiot tbh
it's not like byond is a money printer or anything, and lawsuits can be ruinously expensive. I can see why he'd want to avoid even the chance of one9
u/ZeWaka Goonstation Dev 4d ago
he literally won't even add an opt-in filter so
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u/Prestigious_Bid_8545 2d ago
The actual byond dev can't add a filter for one game Doing that may require a filter for all of byond due to the fact the dev isnt the guy who put the actual game of ss13 on the hub That would have to be something the dev added on the backend and then was enabled by the hub host Source: I researched this shithole
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u/ZeWaka Goonstation Dev 1d ago
He certainly could if he wished, adding one for just this hub, or for all hubs. He mainly avoids touching the pager code because he says it sucks. Furthermore, it's not like exadv1 is not around anymore, if an option was added, he certainly could enable it.
Source: I've worked on this game for 10 years, maintain code used by every server you play on, talk to lummox about proposed features, and work on OpenDream (sometimes).
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u/Snowflakish 1d ago
Or at the bare minimum ERP servers which aren’t properly labelled 18+ should not be listed, and the hub should have an 18+ filter that’s off by default.
SS14 has both
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u/Thorn-of-your-side 1d ago
My main ERP server is not available on the hub and that definitely creates a better culture. If you want to join, you need to know what you are looking for.
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u/Critical-Limit1982 1d ago
Or maybe, and this might be crazy, parents should KEEP AN EYE ON THEIR KIDS while they are on the internet.
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u/asdfgtref 19h ago
there's no possible way for a parent to know all of what their kids are doing without constant vigilance, some things need to be implemented on the system side. It's wholly unreasonable to expect some tech illiterate 30-50 year old to understand what byond is, and to register that it has adult content beyond the clearly advertised game content.
18+ servers should all be ID checked at a minimum.
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u/Critical-Limit1982 19h ago
My parents raised me so that I would ask if I could get on a site before I could get on it.
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u/asdfgtref 19h ago
how would they even know if you did without some really heavy monitoring software? not to mention you could just describe what ss13 IS and it would be accurate, googling the game would show a non pornographic space man videogame. Expecting parents to understand it on a deeper level isn't really reasonable imo, most people are not very smart.
All that is without mentioning that it doesn't really matter, I can't make all parents keep an eye on their kids. I can't change that, I can't, things are just going to be this way. We should operate around that understanding and implement barriers that are minimally impactful on adult players.
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u/kyle2143 Goonstation 5d ago
I agree. It makes me embarrassed that byond advertises the erp servers on the hub right next to normal ones.
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u/CernWest 4d ago
Unfortunately for you the erp servers *are* the normal ones, and the non-erp are the niche ones.
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u/Mason_Miami 5d ago
It's not my job to be your fucking baby sitter. The internet isn't your fucking babysitter, ass hole. I'm so sick of dumb mother fuckers dumping their kids off on other people who didn't consent to take care of them it's child abuse and slavery.
You people are the dumb ass army for the politicians who want to control free speech on the internet. Today they come pornography but make no mistake tomorrow they're coming for the things that you say which aren't kid friendly which will also happen to be certain forms of political expression.
So basically on top of being a ass hole you're also a political patsy and the fucking ass hole who'll kill free speech on the internet.
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u/E_T_0646 4d ago
Honestly, I'm in the middle of it. Do I believe that kids should have free access to the internet? No. Do I believe that we should remove unsavory stuff from the internet, or the very least risk your identity stolen if you want to access it? Also no.
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u/Mason_Miami 4d ago
I don't know what middle you're at but I'm in straight up mother fuckin Texas where they're trying to take our porn. Maybe raging wasn't a popular choice but I feel it.
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u/E_T_0646 4d ago
That I understand both points. That kids shouldn't be exposed to unsavoury content but the response isn't to try to scrub the internet squeaky clean
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
There is a minor in this thread trying to argue against online verification lmao
Nobody reasonable is talking about scrubbing the internet clean, we're talking about sectioning off adult spaces. Texas is specifically stupid off on their own.
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u/cassyjenelle 3d ago
They're tryna take our
gunsporn. lmfaoAlso my god no one has to be that extreme about it, maybe if people who grew up in the wild west of the internet weren't so apeshit stupid on being so laissez faire and used common sense and self-moderated from the start, these manipulative politicians wouldn't have been able to latch onto a legitimate issue to weaponize it.
It starts with us.
Also pornhub was a bit of a shitshow anyway, there's so much CSAM and revenge porn on that platform and they were never serious about trying to moderate it and did so much lobbying and coverups, I'm not even mad it got banned even if it was part of some stupid culture war.
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u/Mason_Miami 2d ago
people who grew up in the wild west of the internet weren't so apeshit stupid on being so laissez faire and used common sense and self-moderated
Benefit and enjoy something that older people built for themselves and welcomed you too as a guest, move in, complain about their neutral attitudes, accuse them of not using common sense, and then demand they moderate themselves with undefined moderation rules? You kinda suck.
I've got questions like:
Do people go to special education centers like they have in North Korea if they don't know how they're supposed to moderate themselves?
Also what about kids and teens? Aren't they at a terrible age to expect common sense and self moderation and need parental supervision for that reason?
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u/Kenju22 19h ago edited 18h ago
Also what about kids and teens? Aren't they at a terrible age to expect common sense and self moderation and need parental supervision for that reason?
Shouldn't a parent be aware of that and actually, I don't know, parent? It's been awhile but I still remember my parents always literally one of them sitting next to me like a hawk whenever I used the computer at home even if I wasn't on the internet. If you don't want your kids to be doing stuff on the computer like that you need to actually do something proactive.
If I wanted to use the computer and they weren't home, well tough shit I didn't get to use the computer.
Six thousand years of recorded history parents have been responsible for raising their kids. If you don't have the time or willingness to be a parent and accept all the responsibility that comes with it, you shouldn't expect others to do it for you.
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u/cassyjenelle 2d ago
Benefit and enjoy something that older people built for themselves and welcomed you too as a guest, move in, complain about their neutral attitudes, accuse them of not using common sense, and then demand they moderate themselves with undefined moderation rules? You kinda suck.
The ones I'm referring to are actually my demographic, yes they suck. They were the toxic type of faux libertarians, talked a big game about free speech and open internet but didn't defend it where it truly counted. I am not "welcomed" as a guest, we grew up with this internet lmfao.
A truly functioning free internet is collectivist and knows how to self monitor without government intervention, that is the only way it actually works. It knows how to be collectivist and self moderate when it wants to, so that's why I don't buy the "we can't stop it!" bs. Look at servers like SPLURT prioritizing pop numbers over age vetting, that's silly.
Also what about kids and teens? Aren't they at a terrible age to expect common sense and self moderation and need parental supervision for that reason?
Kids and teens aren't the ones making and hosting these platforms, you think?
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u/Mason_Miami 2d ago
I don't know what you want dude. You want people to moderate themselves and then at the same time (as I pointed out) kids and teens can't moderate themselves but you want them here too.
If you're not willing to accept there's a flaw to your logic that you need to go back and re-think then I can't help you any further and we're done here.
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u/cassyjenelle 2d ago
You think server hosts are teens and kids?
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u/Mason_Miami 2d ago
I don't see any point to moving past what I've said until you resolve the conflict in logic about wanting self-moderation and wanting kids on the internet at the same time. I can't even get you to define what "Self-Moderation" is.
There's no reason to address any other sub-topics you're making until you address the fatal flaw in the main topic that you're encompassing all other sub-topics in.
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u/cassyjenelle 2d ago
Dude, there's no flaw in my logic, you're against what i'm even proposing here. Which is fine, we can conclude it here.
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u/Kenju22 18h ago
It's too bad so many people are apeshit stupid and so laissez faire and didn't use common sense and self moderation from the start and simply NOT have kids and now expect everyone else to raise the kids they themselves are not responsible enough to raise.
Don't blame other people for your failure in parenting, accept that you are shit at parenting and do better rather than blaming other people for not doing your job.
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u/cassyjenelle 17h ago
First of all, I am not a parent.
Secondly, I was the kid who grew up on the wild west of the internet and thus was like you - desensitized to this discourse, and I assume by your attitude you were as well.
Three, we're a collective society that apparently has this weird thing called "morals", and this is not raising kids - don't be ridiculous. Adults have some responsibility too. We're supposed to point out if something seems off, or if we're doing something fucking stupid. Like the person running the bar in real life checking your ID, "Wow such intervention! Maybe the parents should have stopped the 14 year old from ordering the bottle of rum."
I think people who host these things who don't do basic vetting, or removing known minors or let them on their mod teams are in a way as complicit in helping the facilitation of grooming. That's a reference to some top-hub servers by the way. God forbid people do the bare minimum of "hey let's not make sure minors in our internet orgy". Sounds like hard work right? Don't like that opinion? Too bad.
Personally even if I were in these servers it would give me the ick - the chances your pixel buddy is a 15 year old from Bavaria is more common than you think.
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u/Kenju22 16h ago edited 16h ago
First of all, I am not a parent.
I wasn't addressing *you* specifically when I said 'your' I was addressing the people who expect everyone else to be responsible for raising their kid.
Secondly, I was the kid who grew up on the wild west of the internet and thus was like you - desensitized to this discourse, and I assume by your attitude you were as well.
I grew up during the wild west of the internet but was in no way exposed to it until after graduation when I was able to afford to pay rent and got my own computer. My parents were VERY strict, any and ALL use of the computer was limited to when one of them was present to supervise. That wasn't just online either, it was any time I wanted to use it PERIOD.
Three, we're a collective society that apparently has this weird thing called "morals", and this is not raising kids - don't be ridiculous. Adults have some responsibility too. We're supposed to point out if something seems off, or if we're doing something fucking stupid. Like the person running the bar in real life checking your ID, "Wow such intervention! Maybe the parents should have stopped the 14 year old from ordering the bottle of rum."
Hard disagree, if a 14 year old is able to go somewhere unsupervised and order rum their parents should be in prison for neglect as well as negligence. I have Pitbulls, my property has a fence and multiple signs indicating this. If a child gets injured because their parents were stupid enough to let them go off unsupervised and didn't teach them to read/know what 'Beware of Dog' and 'No Trespassing' means, to respect the property of others and not climb a fence into someone else's yard any injures that child sustains is on the parent, not me.
I think people who host these things who don't do basic vetting, or removing known minors or let them on their mod teams are in a way as complicit in helping the facilitation of grooming. That's a reference to some top-hub servers by the way. God forbid people do the bare minimum of "hey let's not make sure minors in our internet orgy". Sounds like hard work right? Don't like that opinion? Too bad.
I think ANY parent who allows a child to use the internet without supervision holds an even greater degree of blame and guilt in the facilitation of said grooming than those running the servers. First and foremost a parents job is to proactively be a part of their child's life and development. To allow someone under the age of 18 unsupervised access to the internet is equal to knowingly and willingly leaving your child with convicted felons. That is entirely on the parent for allowing a situation in which their child was able to have unrestricted access to the internet. The parent/legal guardian and the child is likewise guilty for breaking the law themselves.
Personally even if I were in these servers it would give me the ick - the chances your pixel buddy is a 15 year old from Bavaria is more common than you think.
Personally even if I were in those servers I would still expect parents to do their job and parent to prevent their kids from access that kind of shit. In no way is there any reasonable or acceptable excuse that removes a single ounce of responsibility or fault from the parent/legal guardian.
I come from a very *very* large family, (great grandmother had nine kids, each of them had a minimum of three and each of them had a minimum of three) and they generally all follow the same basic rules. If your kid is under 18 they don't get internet access without supervision, they don't get a personal phone, and they don't go anywhere with friends or do clubs/sports activities without at least one of their parents present to chaperon. If they are able to buy a car before turning 18 then one of their parents is going to be riding with them in the car wherever they go.
Parenting, it's simple, it's effective, and it's been working for over six thousand years.
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u/asdfgtref 19h ago
damn bro take a breath, it'd just be removing the goon servers from view which many people want from a variety of reasons. Also mandating people to verify they're 18+ to access gooner content ISNT a violation of free speech. The issue is the overreaching that comes along side that which we've already seen in the UK.
I'm literally a UK citizen I've seen the negative impacts of this shit first hand. News suppressed, access to mental health support groups hugely impacted without providing ID, those are all bad but have literally nothing to do with what is being spoken about.
If you think any of that is even vaguely applicable to BYOND doing their due diligence to make sure people in 18+ servers are 18+ then you're deluded or just actively trying to muddy the waters with misinformation and antagonism.
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u/Mason_Miami 14h ago
BYOND doing their due diligence
- Not their job.
- They can barely afford to turn on the lights.
- Their only job is to make sure BYOND works
- Splitting their budget into age verification will reduce budget for BYOND development
- We have to loose out on BYOND development because shit heads want us to take care of their kids.
- Radical idea! Why can't the parents take care of their own kids?
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u/asdfgtref 11h ago
radical idea, it doesn't matter why they can't take care of their kids, because we can't compel them to or make radical change. If the costs are the concern then front load the costs onto the consumer, if people want to have a age verified goon account then they a handful of dollars shouldn't matter. Whatever the cost per verification is, which from some quick googling seems to be quite low.
You can say "well it's not our responsibility because clearly it's the parents fault" but IMO thats a pretty short sighted selfish view, it takes a village to raise a child. We're all responsible to varying extents to keep people safe. Especially when the thing you're trying to prevent is literal child grooming, get a grip. It's a lazy way of dealing with the problem by just writing it off, in a perfect world parents would have 100% an understanding of these things and manage their kids but that isn't the world we live in. We should make changes around what is reasonable not some fantasy that will never happen.
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u/Mason_Miami 10h ago edited 10h ago
it takes a village to raise a child
Yes.
it doesn't matter why they can't take care of their kids, because we can't compel them to or make radical change.
But you said that corny ass village shit?
if people want to have a age verified goon account then they a handful of dollars shouldn't matter.
I pay taxes. Going back to that "my village can't compel a parent to raise their kids." shit, my taxes go to pay child welfare and law agencies to ensure that parents take care of their kids or have them located to a home that will. That's my role as a "village raising kids".
Especially when the thing you're trying to prevent is literal child grooming, get a grip.
That's the only thing?
- What about criminal activity?
- What about targeted ads that self shame?
- What about toxic communities that can cause kids to suicide?
- What about online harassment?
- What about toxic influencers who encourage poor life decisions?
- What about trashy Romanian pimps teaching boys to abuse girls and teaching girls that their value is less than a boy?
- What about all the guides online for arson, theft, murder, assault, making weapons, and even bombs?
- How about all the criminals, terrorists, drug cartels, cults, and hostile foreign powers that'll want control over kids?
- Propaganda that manipulates adults isn't going anywhere either it will be there for kids to see and with less wisdom to understand it as propaganda than adults.
- Pseudo-Science, Pseudo-History, and other "fictions presented as fact" based media is on a sharp up rise. This also isn't healthy for kids.
Up until this point you've only had one type of concern for harm to children on your mind but these are all other extremely serious issues that won't be solved by a "porn ban". The obvious is staring you in the face: The Internet Is Not A Place For Children To Be Unsupervised.
in a perfect world parents would have 100% an understanding of these things and manage their kids but that isn't the world we live in.
In a perfect world we wouldn't need Child Protective Services. Parents would have 100% understanding that they can't beat their kids, neglect to feed them, leave them home alone, leave them in locked hot cars, abandon them, or make them live in filthy homes.
We should make changes
The change is you want censorship that doesn't fix anything and makes other things shitty for everyone else. Also this costs money that our community doesn't have.
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u/asdfgtref 9h ago
it takes a village to raise a child.
it doesn't matter why they can't take care of their kids, because we can't compel them to or make radical change.
I'm not seeing how these are contradictory to you? We can't compel parents to implement every possible safety, it's unreasonable to expect it to happen even if we should push for that. Understanding that it won't happen is where our responsibility to protect kids that might be harmed in our space comes into play, it's OUR job too.
I pay taxes. Going back to that "my village can't compel a parent to raise their kids." shit, my taxes go to pay child welfare and law agencies to ensure that parents take care of their kids or have them located to a home that will. That's my role as a "village raising kids".
We can argue as to whether or not it's your responsibility, but as someone who has modded for a load of ss13 servers it is MY responsibility to make sure that kids aren't getting groomed on a platform I manage. Doing that involves having proper tools, tools that we currently lack. I was groomed as a kid, like fuck am I going to avoid my responsibility to prevent that for the sake of minor inconvenience on adult players.
That's the only thing?
-bunch of shit in a listAll the things you bring up are things we should concern ourselves with but they have literally NOTHING to do with what we're currently talking about or the main issue at hand. Those are not issues relating to SS13 and if they are then they SHOULD be managed as well. At this point you're just going on a rant about the "porn ban" which has 0 relevance to this very specific niche outside of semi related subject matter.
I'll spell it out clearly for you, if you're managing a community or platform in which its not unreasonable to assume two people are going to interact sexually then you have a direct responsibility to do what you can to keep kids out of those spaces. It's not like age vetting is even that much of an inconvenience and the risk factor for censored IDs is effectively 0. Is it a 100% block on kids? no, but it catches out a lot of them.
Comparing ss13 age vetting to the disastrous online safety act is just derailing the conversation. The overarching concerns about privacy violation and suppression of free speech are not relevant here as the application is so specific. If byond took over ID vetting (Which I still think they should), then privacy might become more of a concern depending on how its implemented. But I'd take that over an unstructured system where servers have next to no concern sharing. Byond managing it means if I see someone underage, I can flag them as such and hopefully that gets them banned or at least restricted at the platform level.
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u/Mason_Miami 1h ago
I was groomed as a kid
For all I know your version of being groomed is "you visited a porn website when you were a kid" because that seems to be your definition of grooming. Actual groomers involved in actual grooming go to places where they can interact with kids who aren't being supervised by adults and then encourage them into illicit activities. -Which (broken record)your solution won't fix.
it is MY responsibility
Let me stop you right there it's not your job to save people who don't want to be saved. If kids are on those 18+ it's because they chose to be there, if the parents aren't stopping it then it's because they don't care, and if government isn't going to enforce child abuse laws against the parents then ultimately your keyboard warrior crap won't fix it but your possible intent to join a vocal mob of: "Let's censor the internet!" could be harmful to all of us.
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u/Kenju22 18h ago
Best solution to deal with minors already accessing the serves is quite simple. Their parents need to get off their asses and parent rather than expecting everyone else to do their job for them.
Simple as that.
Growing up the only computer in our house was in the living room, in plain view of everyone. If I wanted to use it, I had to have one of them sit next to me because they were the only ones who knew the password to the computer and to turn on the router.
Amazing how effective parenting is as preventing minors from accessing things they shouldn't.
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u/Girugiggle 18h ago
Unironically if this is a worry Byond should be an 18+ service. I dont think kids should be playing this game If we are worried that much about it. And honestly you shouldn't be playing with kids even in non adult servers.
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u/Crafty_Economics_847 21h ago
Honestly this is the correct move. It shouldn’t be easy to join these servers.
Anyone with half a brain can figure out how.
People who can’t figure out how to connect to custom servers are not old enough to be playing on them.
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u/CernWest 4d ago
All 18+ games should be privatized off steam because of easy access to minors 💀
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u/troytroy400 That one guy who knows space law 4d ago
Or just have age verification.
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u/yugiohhero 4d ago
No way for age verification to be 100% accurate. Even if it requires you to send your ID (which I refuse to do, that's insane), a kid who wanted to get into the furry vore rp servers could just nick their parents ID.
If we're going to go for a solution that doesn't even keep all the kids out, we should probably go for a solution that does not involve having to send internet randos your ID.
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u/borbop 4d ago
"Even if it requires you to send your ID (which I refuse to do, that's insane), a kid who wanted to get into the furry vore rp servers could just nick their parents ID."
This is why most newer non AI guessing based ID verification services require either a video or selfie along with the id. But those are more expensive (like double the price per ID).ID services also allow you to completely purge user data, its what we do, after its verified by them a webhook gets sent which just instant deletes it. Only thing thats left over is a refID which you can use to make sure an ID check actually happened aswell as a timestamp on the deletion.
Honestly 99% of this would be solved if the government who want ID checks on everything also had an id verification platform companies could use.
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u/yugiohhero 4d ago
If they require a selfie, merely upload your fathers facebook profile picture alongside a photo of his ID.
My government actually does have their own method of ID verification (purely for government stuff) and it sucks dick and doesn't work.
Who is we? What "we" do? Define we.
And, no, it wouldn't be solved, because companies want to know everything about you for that sweet sweet data, they'd use their own proprietary methods anyways.
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u/borbop 3d ago
Cool so just enforce a video...
Yea of course the government version sucks dick, its only being used for government services they have no real reason to make it run well.We is the server I work on.
No companies wouldn't use their own methods lol, there is a stark difference between collecting user data and collecting user PII. PII has infinitely more liability, look at the tea app they are at what like 3-4 class action lawsuits now and multiple non class actions.
Hell even now I can't think of many companies that use in house ID verification. They almost all use third party identification.
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u/Kenju22 19h ago
Enforcing video isn't that difficult a work around, unless you force a real time face to face recording every single time a person logs on.
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u/borbop 9h ago
Unless you are getting your parents to stare into the camera to verify for you for the video its pretty hard to work around, you can't just feed a video off your camera roll or screens, most modern id verification platforms have checks for that outside forcing it live from the camera.. At that point though its like squarely on the fact your parents willingly identified for you which isn't preventable with any system.
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u/Kenju22 2h ago
So it requires a camera on the device? Damn that means I wouldn't be able to play at all considering I own no devices with a camera period. Oh well, just means one less thing in life to enjoy as this shithole of a timeline goes down the toilet.
Don't own a tablet, and my computer has no camera since it's a tower model, and on top of that due to security guidelines with my job I literally cannot bring any device with a camera to my jobsite. Because of that I only have a company issued phone, no personal phone.
Before anyone says 'just get a phone of your own' I will point out what I said above, I literally cannot bring any device with a functioning camera onto my jobsite, which includes the parking deck, and I'm not wasting money on a phone I would have to leave at home every day just to log in and play a 20 year old game because parents are too lazy to parent their own damn kids.
Oh well, Space Station 13 was fun for the last decade, but if they push for this shit I literally have no choice but to quite as I am apparently just an acceptable loss.
Nothing says dedication and loyalty to one's country like getting fucked over for doing your job I suppose. Then again with America's history with Vets I suppose I should expect no less when it comes to those in the support role.
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u/yugiohhero 3d ago
I'm sure a clever kid could figure out a way to get a video of their parent's face like that. Hell, people have already been cheesing discord's video verification with footage of Garry's Mod.
And you think I trust a version made by corporate?
This tells me nothing.
Losing money is only a crime when you aren't rich. Losing a lawsuit is a business expense, and I'm sure this is a business risk plenty of corporations are willing to take.
Maybe they don't use in house verification. That's probably a lot of work to set up. But what do you think the third party is doing with the info?
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u/borbop 3d ago
You need to do more research before speaking on this matter. Losing a lawsuit for having some passwords leak is like a fraction of a fraction of a penny compared to having a data leak with ID. There is barely a handful of massive companies that take on this risk and serve content themselves..
Third parties are not selling this info or doing much of anything with it, these companies get audited like multiple times a year to keep the like 90 approvals they have. GDPR, ISO, CCPA, etc.
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u/asdfgtref 19h ago
All ID verification involves heavily censored ID images which only reveal your DoB while showing that it is a Valid ID. Your name, face, all other identifying information are removed.
Is it a 100% accurate pass? no, but its one step of many that we as moderators can use to catch out underage people that should not be in our communities. It will catch out plenty of people, I've literally seen the tickets. Each layer of security increases the effectiveness, even a 50% effective solution is better than no solution at all.
Really the primary issue with ID checking currently is that its a huge pain in the arse, and it's handled by volunteer staff. Age vets rarely cross server bounds which involve regularly handing that information over repeatedly. Ideally BYOND would be using an actual professional 3rd party to verify the IDs instead, and then flagging the specific accounts as adult.
Not only would that increase the safety of the process, it'd make it more convenient for everyone involved, and it'd give us a proper recourse as staff to get accounts banned for age violation. As currently you have to manually seek out other servers to report them, and those are just the ones you know. The whole system we have right now is deeply flawed.
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
No way for age verification to be 100% accurate. Even if it requires you to send your ID (which I refuse to do, that's insane), a kid who wanted to get into the furry vore rp servers could just nick their parents ID.
A system not being foolproof is not a reason not to use it. Do you lock your doors?
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u/Kenju22 19h ago
I don't, not much need when you live with several pairs of Pitbull's. Mailman refuses to come to the door and we have to get packages delivered at our neighbors but I would say that is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
It's amazing how few people are willing to come down your driveway when they see five Pitbull's lounging around the sidewalk.
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u/yugiohhero 3d ago
Does locking my doors require me to fork over personal information to people I do not know and have no reason to trust?
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
Yes, having somewhere to live and lock your doors generally requires that, absolutely. The power company, the water company, the internet company. So does most of interacting with society.
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u/yugiohhero 3d ago
I'll be honest, I don't live on my own yet, but I suspect I don't need to fork over my ID to the hydro companies.
Remember when you were a kid, and everyone told you that you should never tell people your real name on the internet? What happened to that, now?
A flawed system is better than no system, but a flawed system with major drawbacks like needing to hand out your ID on the internet is not. It's really that simple.
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u/Fokoffbix 3d ago
hello, adult here. you must fork over your ID for:
• The Bank(s) (Over time you will have multiple) • The Hydro Company • The Power Company • The Internet Service Provider Company • The Phone Company (which is sometimes your ISP) • The Insurance Company • The Health Insurance Company • The company you're going to buy a car from
And I'm sure there's more that I can't remember off the top of my head, hope this helps
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
Yeah as soon as they said that shit I knew they were a fucking kid all up in this thread trying to keep these adult spaces open
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u/TheDukeofOok monkestation host 3d ago
Dude you couldn't tell by the username? Yu-Gi-Oh is a children's card game
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u/Admiral_Turboclown 2d ago
To be fair, it also first aired as an anime in fuckin' 1998.
I instantly aged thirty years after looking this up, like a fucked up off-brand Matt Damon. Help.→ More replies (0)4
u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
I'll be honest, I don't live on my own yet, but I suspect I don't need to fork over my ID to the hydro companies
Literal child lmao get the fuck out of here
Yes, you have to give your banking and personal info to the power company so you can pay them to power your house you stupid cunt
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u/AbsoluteTruth 3d ago
I'll be honest, I don't live on my own yet, but I suspect I don't need to fork over my ID to the hydro companies.
Lmao you are a literal child, get out of this conversation
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u/Unknown_Ladder 4d ago
But there isn't really a solution for that, it's impossible to prove someone's age these days. Even ids can be easily faked. The only true solution is if there was some sort of government database lol
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u/yugiohhero 4d ago
I know there is no 100% functional solution, hence the second paragraph. If we can't keep out all the kids either way, we may as well not go for the nuclear option where you're expected to doxx yourself to random people who run a nearly 30 year old game client just to get your rocks off.
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u/troytroy400 That one guy who knows space law 4d ago
Just setup ID.me or something. No data gets stored and no one involved has to see personally identifying information.
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u/deathride58 citadel cohost/jaded ol' synthlizard 4d ago
ID.me provides full name, address, height, weight, uncensored face, and DoB, to the service that has directed a user towards its ID verification.
This is a very similar story for most other ID verification services out there. (I have direct first-hand experience working with several such ID verification services.)
Services specifically designed for age verification are problematic in their own ways, such as K-ID, which bases its "verification" purely off of estimating age from a live selfie. These are not at all sufficiently trustworthy for attesting without a doubt that someone is indeed over the age of 18.
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u/borbop 4d ago
All services will do this, how you deal with the PII from an ID service is almost always in the hand of the company paying for it. IE with our service we have it send a webhook on ID verified (which happens before its added to the db) and the webhook handles sending in the data deletion request since we literally only care about if the ID verified. You need to pay for a service that actually deals with verifying documents not some "age guessing"
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u/deathride58 citadel cohost/jaded ol' synthlizard 4d ago
You're aware that most identity verification services only care about verifying the authenticity of the ID info it reports back to you, right? Most have no qualms with letting minors' IDs pass as valid (its part of why they're able to inflate the hell out of their ID pass rate metrics), as verifying that IDs are genuine is their sole concern. Applying rules based on the information within those IDs (such as "only those above the age of 18 may pass"), and being responsible with that data, is the sole responsibility of you the client.
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u/Thorn-of-your-side 1d ago
Just censor everything but your birth date, and have your Byond/discord in the background of the image for verification.
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u/Tough-Score-7246 Furry SS13 Server Enthusiast 1d ago
Damn, this didn't go as well as you thought it would., huh?
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u/asdfgtref 19h ago
18+ servers should be ID locked, with byond handling the ID checks really. If they're going to be on the hub at all that is the most ideal of situations. I'm pro the existence of these servers but the current moderation around them is really rough.
If you ID gate your server, you get punished and have your pop leeched to servers that don't. If you DO ID gate your server well now you have a load of people thinking you're stealing their data or that are concerned about where it might end up.
ID gates are the morally correct way to handle this, but putting it in the hands of individual moderators is just a mess for everyone involved. If BYOND want 18+ SS13 Servers to be on the hub then they need to realistically provide that as an option. I don't think delisting them from the hub does anything, it just makes the problem less visible. We shouldn't be pushing to delist these servers, we should be pushing byond to do their due diligence.
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u/KapteynsStar 5d ago
Or creating a filter that needs to be manually enabled before you see them, like SS14 has.