Is there a silent understanding that followers should backlead during class combos in intermediate/advanced classes because it’s essentially choreography?

[u/Lazy-Horse1698]

I dropped in at new studio for the first time tonight and found that several leads in the intermediate/advanced class treated me like I couldn’t dance and critiqued me when I didn’t just do a move (I was waiting for it to be led. I was able to do the combo just fine with leads who were giving proper signals, so it was not a matter of lack of skill). I looked around and saw that when other followers danced with the leads who gave me trouble they were able to do the combo flawlessly. I kept watching and eventually caught on that they were just doing the choreography since we already know it and can go without needing the lead.

I wanted to ask the instructor if for this class we are just supposed to be doing choreo like i imagine you’d do performance type class, but was scared to offend. This was just advertised as a regular partner work class, so I thought I was supposed to wait until the lead got it. The instructor rarely corrected anyone and just kept adding on to the combo. It was not a hard combo and I could do it all, but again I was waiting to be led.

Has any other follow ever experienced this, or in general a lead being rude because you couldn’t follow them? Do you ever just do the choreo because you know it in some of your classes?

[u/space4lyfe]

No, you were correct in waiting for the lead (unless the instructor specified otherwise, like in the context of a performance class as you mentioned).

The issue is that a lot of leads and follows aren't actually taught to lead and follow, and instead just focus on executing the combo as a "choreography" as you noticed.

Unfortunate, but it is what it is. I've noticed it becomes especially apparent (from a lead perspective), when they teach follows complicated styling, as then often the follows are thinking about where they need to be for the styling, and ignore the lead.

[u/Lazy-Horse1698 → u/space4lyfe]

Thanks, it was quite a frustrating experience.

[u/reilwin → u/Lazy-Horse1698]

It's also frustrating from the lead's perspective too if they're actually trying to lead, because then your partner often preempts the actual signal and it feels like you're just dancing by yourself.

[u/Jeffrey_Friedl → u/Lazy-Horse1698]

Literally tell them "I was waiting for the lead; I didn't sense one".

Or, ask the instructor to show you what the lead should feel like. This brings up the issue without saying "this dude here isn't leading".

As a follow, I'm pretty good at waiting for the lead, but it can be difficult sometimes, and if I catch myself not having waitied, I proactively appologize. As a lead, if I sense that the follow is good enough to not be doing this, I literally ask them "please wait for the lead", and perhaps change things up so that they can't predict. We're there to learn, and I don't want to let them take that away from me.

[u/nmanvi → u/Lazy-Horse1698]

You did the right thing and are thinking about the concept of following the correct way.

All pro followers/teachers I know do not back lead based on principle but also based on SKILL. It's virtually impossible for a pro follower to turn without a signal as pro followers transform the energy provided to them. If no one provides you energy how are you able to turn? As you correctly pointed out the other followers are creating the energy themselves.

I find it worse when less experienced teachers and assistants backlead moves to make a point... sometimes they are wrong and apologise "Oh I thought we were meant to do A but you are right it was B". Or sometimes I'm wrong but backleading prevents me from correcting my mistake as backleads are by definition unnatural. Since it's unnatural i dont learn anything as followers will not react that way in socials.

So I love followers like you who do not move as it immediately signals to me that I didnt lead the move right, as that is NATURAL and followers in socials also wouldn't move

good work.

[u/Successful-Ad5682]

As a lead, I never expect the follower to just do the routine without me leading it, especially at an intermediate or above level. 

I've only ever experienced this with beginner followers who are sometimes just so focused on getting the routine down that they forget to wait for my lead. 

Most intermediate followers will do what you do and wait for me to lead each move. Sometimes I'll forget the next move and we'll do a quick basic while I try and remember and then we keep going. Occasionally a follow will anticipate and begin doing the next move before I've led it and we usually just laugh it off because it feels a little unnatural/awkward when it happens. 

I would never dream of getting upset because a follow isn't doing the routine on her own. The whole point is to learn what it feels like to properly lead/follow these moves and treating it like a choreography robs both people of that experience. 

On a side note, my instructor will often challenge us by dancing with us and intentionally being a difficult follower so that we have to be extra clear in our leading. It's one of my favorite exercises!

[u/Busy-Safe-1692]

This happens to me often. And the lead always says something like "You're supposed to do a push turn into a cuddle" and I ALWAYS shoot back with "Yeah and you're supposed to lead it, I cant do it if you dont lead it" and then they get flustered and make up a reason why they messed up.

I've danced with the instructors in the rotation who sometimes forget the combo and accidentally lead something else then compliment me for following them instead of trying to do the class combo anyway.

Stick to your guns and keep waiting to be led. It's annoying but when they start to critique you, make sure they understand it's their role as a lead to LEAD a move and not passively move their limbs hoping you'd read their mind and do the combo.

[u/Eddie_Haskell2 → u/Busy-Safe-1692]

If my follower doesn't do what I thought I led, I always assume I led it wrong and Very often that's the case. Apparently that's unusual though as I'm told a lot of leads bully the followers and act like its always their fault . Especially true in tango where leading and following is very delicate and hard to learn.

[u/katyusha8]

I primarily dance bachata but I have experienced this in group classes. And yes, some instructors really rely on follows back leading because they prefer to or only know how to teach choreography instead of the very slow and “boring” mechanics of leading and following. I really don’t like this approach but these instructors are the majority 🥲

The amount of backleading I personally do in classes really depends on my own mood, interest, and partner. If the choreo consists of moves I want to work on, I’ll backlead. If my partner is clearly new/inexperienced, I’ll do some backleading so that they feel some sense of accomplishment and keep coming to classes.

However, in the situation you described (leader getting huffy at me while not actually leading) i become maliciously compliant and do 0 backleading. If you are going to be a jerk about it, this is what you get 🤷‍♀️

[u/Lazy-Horse1698 → u/katyusha8]

This is so helpful, thank you!

[u/benao → u/Lazy-Horse1698]

It’s not

[u/SpacecadetShep]

If a lead ever says "you're supposed to do this " and proceeds to explain the move to you then they never knew how to lead it in the first place. Simple as that

[u/IliasThermos → u/SpacecadetShep]

If that was the case then follows wouldn't need to show up to classes.

[u/HolyFrijoles89]

Classes like this produce dancers that are not very good or fun social dancers

[u/Ok_Broccoli5218]

You did the right thing to be led. There’s a weak lead in my group class that messes up and thinks I don’t know how to follow and he says “you’re supposed to turn” and I reply, “I need you to lead me into it” Then I realized the other followers don’t go to socials so they’re only used to hearing the routines being called out so they do the move for him.

[u/benao]

You’re the best kind of follow! Thank you. Fk those guys and the instructor, just move on from that «studio».

[u/double-you]

In some classes there is a degenerate situation where leading and following is not properly taught and bad leads expect follows to go through the motions to keep their egos intact.

[u/Live_Badger7941]

I think what you encountered was a bad teacher.

[u/harrrycoxx]

they tripping

[u/pdabaker]

I think as a follower In class you have to judge the skill of the lead and help them when they aren’t close but try to follow when they are leading properly or almost properly.  In a long combo if a lead can’t do one move it’s not helpful to stop and not let them try other parts of the combo that maybe they can do better

[u/mannwatch → u/pdabaker]

That’s the best approach also in my opinion!

[u/Potential-Analyst384]

It’s on every level. The worst is if a beginner will learn a new move and then gets annoyed you don’t know it. Just lead me, so I will do it. I had even a lead that was telling me what to do instead of leading.

[u/OThinkingDungeons]

In my opinion anything more than 8 counts is a waste of time.

What you're experiencing is a common symptom of bad teaching, and it comes from an old style of teaching, which was "I show, you copy". If you didn't get it, it was your own fault.

When there's lots of moves, then the focus becomes on the next move, and keeping up. There's no time to learn correct technique, learn the correct lead/follow, make corrections if there was a mistake, or any of the things that are actually important in social dancing. The more moves, the less likely there's a chance of retention and success, after class. I'm baffled, that people feel like they've gotten value after a session like this. I suspect some people equate "it was difficult, which means it was helpful".

When I follow, I specifically follow what's lead. Luckily, I'm recognised as a "good" leader, and decent follower so leaders often check in when they realise something didn't work. Unfortunately, you're entering a culture of people who don't question, nor realise they're not properly leading/following moves, so you're going to experience uncomfortable situations.

Personally, I would go to another school, if you know what you want/like then why are you there?

[u/one_life_two_live]

I have experienced this a lot. It's part of the reason why I don't like partner work classes. I don't understand why someone would want to look like they can do a move instead of learn how to do a move -- especially when someone else is relying on them. I also don't appreciate that studios don't require leads in the wrong level classes to improve or level down.

[u/breakable_bacon]

Ideally yes, you should just wait to be led. But in a learning scenario, it doesn't hurt to help them along.

However, the leads should understand if you're helping, you're doing them a favor, and not criticize you for not doing so.

But then again, I'm old school. I come from a time when generally, people were actually nice to each other on the dance floor. Times are different now I suppose.

[u/RhythmGeek2022 → u/breakable_bacon]

You’re actually harming the leads’ learning process by backleading. You can help them by providing verbal feedback instead

[u/No-Lobster-4646]

Most leads get lazy and don’t really lead in class. I know because I get complemented a lot for actually leading in class. That’s how I found out that most leads get comfortable not leading.

[u/Cute_Job973]

it's the responsibility of your instructors to tell follows not to backlead.

There is no circumstance where backleading is beneficial for either the lead or follow.

[u/zugspitze23 → u/Cute_Job973]

I disagree. In our class Sometimes leads get a knot in their heads (cuban Salsa with loads of knots) and find hard to understand. we followers often help.

[u/L3ir3txu]

Our instructor actually insists on the followers NOT back leading and will berate us if we do. It feels like you are helping the lead, but on the long run, you are doing the opposite of a favor if they intend to ever attend a social.

If I want to help a lead, specially with very beginners, I'll do the count of steps out loud so there is one less thing for them to focus on. At most, say out loud the next step for long combos ("and then we do another enchufla...") but will wait for them to signal it.

The instructor will have all the follows dance facing the wall where we cannot see when he signals for the "combo/sequence of the day" to start, and only leads see the signal. This means that at the bare minimum, the lead has to be able to lead the start of the combo clearly.

[u/heyitsbryanm]

I'll ask the follow to backlead if I'm not getting it or if I missed part of the class.

You shouldn't backlead tho, builds bad habits

[u/zugspitze23 → u/heyitsbryanm]

Exactly. when we are learning choreographies, (which I don't like, to be honest), I will help and not just stay there like a prop. Nobody dies in getting help of a woman 😁

[u/Mizuyah]

Thats not a good instructor and it isn’t a good class either. An instructor should offer correction and not just show moves. The class is a product of the instructor so it really starts with them.

In my classes, I also don’t react if I don’t feel the lead. Similarly, when it’s led badly, I will react if it’s led badly. If it hurts, I will say it hurts. People don’t learn and improve if we back lead. You did the right thing. My advice would be to find another class.

[u/falllas]

It's not that black and white. Certainly the lead is off line if they're critical and unfriendly. And that seemed like a bad class. But it's possible to take such a class more productively than just executing choreography.

Generally a lead can't just do a new combination off the bat unless they pretty much have all the components in their repertory already. There's a need to go through the moves a couple times to have a feel for where the lead and the follow need to be on which beat, to then be able to integrate that with leading the sequence.

The follow shouldn't expect the lead to lead the sequence properly right away, just as the lead shouldn't expect the follow to follow it properly from the start -- we're not taking privates with an instructor who can already dance this. The goal should be to get to a properly lead and followed sequence, but along the way there, it can be useful for the follow to help out.

[u/mannwatch → u/falllas]

💯

[u/aniluapka]

My teacher always says that follows should NOT learn the routine instead we should learn to follow what we feel and if you don’t feel anything then don’t do anything.

It’s also learning process for us, because we don’t know what’s coming when social dancing, so we have to learn what things should feel like.

“Helping” leads is not a good habit, and if someone insists you do it during classes, then you may pick it up and then subconsciously do it when social dancing.

When I’m at the class and the lead is confused or mixing things up I just go with what they do. It’s not my role, I’m a follower.

If someone says to me “you should do that” then I tell them “if you lead it well then I’d do it”.

[u/IcySeaworthiness7248]

No… they just haven’t been taught to FOLLOW. At my school, we are told to follow the lead, even in class, even if they mess up the choreo. New leads do gripe about this (I’m an intermediate follow and will just follow their incorrect lead, incorrectly), but then I remind them “I’m following! Maybe do this and it will be more clear?”

[u/Chuggs1997]

There’s two possibilities: the leads weren’t giving you the lead by you were looking for except for a few more experienced ones, or you have a very soft frame meaning that by most leads’ standards you were just not receiving their leading and the more experienced leads caught on quickly that they needed to give you a stronger lead.

If you’ve just started intermediate/advanced I’m more inclined to say it’s the latter. I find that with newer follows I have to give them a much stronger lead than I do with more advanced follows, and if I dance with newer follows for an extended period of time I would actually be a bit rough for the more advanced follows until I recalibrate.

This experience is also compounded with me recently trying to follow and I was surprised the beginner leads had decent frames but a lot of the beginner follows struggle to feel the leads frame and subsequently don’t feel when they’re being led.

[u/EphReborn]

As a lead, I generally don't expect people to actually lead and follow in class for the most part. It actually surprises me a bit when I come across a follow who's actually following during class and not just moving on autopilot.

Not a "good" thing, of course, but at least where I am, I rarely come across an actual intermediate/advanced-level follow (or lead for that matter) in studio classes. Usually it's beginners and what I call beginner-plus (low-intermediate could be another name for it).

Granted, I'm much more into Bachata these days, so I haven't been to other studios in the area for Salsa in a long while but this is still the case at my main studio. But anyway, most of the time, they're just moving on autopilot and I'm usually not hard-pressed to make a big deal out of it since I can usually pick up new moves/combos fairly quickly.

[u/Lazy-Horse1698 → u/EphReborn]

This was in New York, and I’ve found that here there are regularly advanced dancers and some pros in the advanced classes.

[u/EphReborn → u/Lazy-Horse1698]

New York + Salsa, so that makes sense. You're in one of the few places in the US where the dance scene is actually advanced so I can definitely see there being more people actually leading and following (and expecting to) during class.

A bit jealous of you, but I'd say take it by ear from now on. Different areas, different studios, different "rules" and expectations. And if anyone has a problem with you waiting to actually be led, well, they've got an ego to check.

[u/Smooth-Cold-5574]

This happens at my school. It just creates shitty follows, they think they can dance because they learn the class choreo and then at the social they are clueless and hard to lead

[u/Eddie_Haskell2]

You were correct . If you just do the choreography neither the leader nor the follower learns a damn thing . As a leader I would come across a lot of followers in salsa classes who would get annoyed at & frustrated with me if i didn't do exactly what the teacher showed even if i just did a couple of basics to get our rhythm before going into the move . Or similarly if the move was complex I might just do the first part till I felt we had it right . Those people would typically just try to back lead it . I would always tell them if you just do the move yourself neither of us is learning anything but that usually didn't satisfy them . When I would ask a teacher about it later they always told me I was right. Feedback from the follower can be very helpful (even critical) if its done right though and not just going through the motions.

[u/Remote_Percentage128 → u/Eddie_Haskell2]

I agree. The worst is when follows focus entirely on what the teacher is showing while dancing instead of dancing with me and react to what I do. I sometimes intentionally throw in another basic to get unsynced to the teacher, if they are going through the sequence together with the class. But this gets less and less the more intermediate classes I take. Also my teachers correct it on both sides and explain about importance of connection.

[u/Remote_Percentage128]

You did exactly right! As a beginner lead, I'm very very happy about followers who actually wait for my lead and give me clear feedback if I fail to do so, because that is how I learn. That being said, I've also encountered followers that expect me to throw them around, which I try to avoid to not pick up rough leading bad habits. For this kind of training I go to the gym :) But more often the followers execute the move without waiting for my signal, which I do not like at all. I need to understand how I communicate with my body to make them do their thing, this is 90 % of my job as a lead.

[u/dave3948]

I would look for a different studio.

[u/SalsaVibe]

it goes 2 ways. as a leader I need to feel how the move goes as the follower executes it. but after that I also need to learn how to give the impulse. so it depends.

[u/Shot-Professional-95]

U did the right thing. There are a lot of useless leads and these are usually the most arrogant ones.

[u/Imaginary-Green-950]

Honestly there's such a circlejerk in here. 

Show us a video and we'll let you know if it's leadable. If the guys aren't leading, and it's leadable the you'll have your answer. This sounds like more of an issue with the teaching.