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u/joekerr9999 8d ago
We are in a full blown oligarchy now. Government policies and tax breaks favor the wealthy over working class voters. The rich get rich and the poor get drunk.
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 8d ago
If wages beat inflation this would be true.
But they haven't for well over 50 years.
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 8d ago
Sure if you're in the 1%.
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
The chart I linked is the median wage. Try again.
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u/southworthmedia 8d ago
I am in Arizona, where the median home price has gone from 200k to 500k over the past 6 years and wages have gone up about 30% in that same time frame.
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
Directionally correct here but I don't think 200k was the median 6 years ago, closer to 400k.
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u/Raptot1256 8d ago
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
This source does not back up your claim
If wages beat inflation this would be true.
But they haven't for well over 50 years.
It show wages have risen, just not as fast as they'd like.
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u/Raptot1256 8d ago
it also show lower income wage earner falling.
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
True when this EPI article came out in 2015, but the lowest earners' wages have boomed since then
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u/Raptot1256 8d ago
It also shown only the top wage earner gain 41% increased in income. It also shown that if the wages had kept up; middle income earner would gain an additional 17000 a year in 2007. The wage had kept up is just a lie.
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
Wage stratification is a separate phenomenon. It does not prove OP's point about wages trailing inflation, which even your sources show is untrue.
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u/Few-Preparation3 8d ago
Yeah ok, but factor in cost of living...
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
THAT'S WHAT THE INFLATION ADJUSTMENT DOES
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u/xSkype 7d ago
Only if cost of living increases in line with inflation, right?
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u/coriolisFX 6d ago
These are the same thing! The increase in cost of living IS INFLATION.
The CPI (consumer price index) is calculated by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, measures the average change over time in the prices paid by urban consumers for a fixed basket of goods and services—including housing, food, transportation, medical care, and more—based on about 80,000 price observations collected monthly.
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u/HonestAbe1809 8d ago
This isn’t a case of a rising tide raising all boats. It’s a case of the richest amongst us having the only boats whereas everyone else has to resort to clinging to ramshackle rafts and driftwood.
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u/FuckItImVanilla 8d ago
They don’t even have boats. They’re dumping water from a space station in orbit intentionally trying to drown everyone else.
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u/HEWTube8 4d ago
The trickle down illustration is upside-down. The tax cuts (and maybe a decent pay raise once in a while) should happen at the upper middle class on down. These are the groups that will spend this extra money on products and services. Then the money will trickle down to the wealthy by way of supporting the companies they own or run.
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u/HonestAbe1809 4d ago
Exactly. The less well-off spend. The rich hoard.
Except when it comes to bribing politicians into doing their bidding, of course!
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u/BlogintonBlakley 8d ago
Let's say we properly bash the billionaires. Publicly humiliate them... dance them through the streets of Washington D.C. naked and pelted by rotten fruit and dog shit.
All of them... and their minions.
Then what?
Well, we'd all start working together to pick up the pieces and build systems of mutual support and aide. Then just as we got to the point where stuff was going well... some group from within will start gaining control... they will use the moral framing of the victory over billionaires to assert control over the successful groups.
They will use violence and people fearful of that violence will comply.
And the whole thing will build toward collapse.
Exactly as it has been doing for six to ten thousand years.
How do we escape the trap?
Easy.
You billionaire bash such people right from the beginning.. You mock and make low status those who exhibit greedy self interest... If they persist in grabbing more than their share, you pelt them with dog shit and rotten fruit and drive them from your society.
If they are dangerous and the organizing type you institute a death penalty. Just like elites use now do to deal with the most serious criminals in society.
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u/dope_sheet 8d ago
"When someone is allowed to horde more resources than a human needs in a dozen lifetimes, we all benefit." Listen to yourselves, Americans For Tax Fairness!
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u/SelectionCareless818 8d ago
We are all well aware of what is happening. The question is, what are you willing to do about it?
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u/jacuzzi_umbrella 8d ago
Doesn’t matter what I’m willing to do about it. What are WE willing to do about it
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u/MittenCollyBulbasaur 8d ago
You gave billions to the Facebook guy and he's over there thinking that we want our phones attached to our eye balls and virtual companions because the app he made for us is making us lonely.
He's giving us the disease so he can also be the cure.
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u/4onlyinfo 8d ago
Google the lump sum payout if you win 1 billion in the powerball drawing. Not the lump sum number. Google the 2025 tax implications. We do know how to tax billionaires. We just don’t, once they can buy politicians nice things.
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u/Few-Preparation3 8d ago
A yes Grrr-oceries... Have you heard this word, Groceries. Its a very old word...
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u/Oblivion_Six 8d ago
It baffles me, how can worker productivity, corporate profits, number of millionaires, and CEO pay increase by hundreds of %, along with cost of living, taxes, insurance, and every fucking thing else all while wages remain relatively stagnant and assholes are fighting against paying just a LIVING WAGE!
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u/Maxhousen 8d ago
Something is definitely trickling down from the wealthy, but it sure as hell ain't money.
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u/Biscuits4u2 8d ago
Americans for financially screwing the working class
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u/Next-Concert7327 8d ago
Sounds like someone is afraid of paying their fair share.
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u/Biscuits4u2 8d ago
For sure. Billionaires would rather throw a few bucks to politicians so they can write their own tax laws.
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u/Big_Chocolate_420 8d ago
it's not the trickle down effect it's the vaporizing up effect
little by little by the money lords get everything from us
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u/MajesticBison6 8d ago
There is no major econometric theory of “Trickle-Down” economics. This is a derogatory term used by people who don’t understand Supply Side economics.
When you dig into the facts, most billionaires did not start off wealthy. They earned and grew that wealth by creating goods and services that other people felt were worth purchasing voluntarily.
In a free market you only do well if you offer the market something that it wants.
The person you revile today started a business and risked their own time, sweat and treasure to create something you use every day, like the smartphone in your pocket, the social media network you’re posting on, or the products that show up at your door as if by magic.
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u/CEOofManualBlinking 8d ago
Yeah they dont realize that the idea of "building wealth = good" applies to socialism and communism too. A rising tide raises all boats. Redistributionism means fuck all if all your country has in terms of wealth is a firepit to sing kumbeya around
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago
Wake up babe, it's time for your daily dose of twitter screenshots from 2021 reposted by an obvious bot
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u/PopfulMale 8d ago
After the briefest glance at their and your profile: their comments don't look any more bot-like than yours to me
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u/coriolisFX 8d ago edited 8d ago
Really? OP does nothing but post screenshots.
Edit: OP also "moderates" 5 totally empty subreddits:
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u/R_Reed_Reddits 8d ago
I've never been impressed with the "trickle down argument" Would Bezos & Elon settle for a trickle UP?
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u/CEOofManualBlinking 8d ago
That isnt trickle down economics. Trickle down economics is strictly supply-side... extremist supply side, if you will.
The idea that a rising tide raises all boats is universal for... quite literally every economy. Marxism, capitalism, socialism, all of them benefit from increased wealth. What good is redistributionism if all you have to distribute is a paperclip and a string?
Wealth is the only cure to poverty. 10% of 1000 is better than 80% of 100
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u/Johnnadawearsglasses 8d ago
Not debating the message, but I’ve literally never heard someone say that. It feels strawman-ish to me. What I hear people say is that a rising ride lifts all boats, which is somewhat similar but actually really different.
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u/EddyT918 8d ago
Yeah! Them Democrat billionaire’s need to get bent…tired of all their fascist nonsense anyway.
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u/Ok-Editor1747 8d ago
When is going to trickle down. I cantafford a 12 pack of ginger ale …. It’s 12$ and some change
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u/Kitsunebillie 8d ago
The crazy thing is that high marginal tax rates on the highest earners did cause the money to indeed trickle down, before Reagan decided no, actually, it will trickle down more if we stop forcing it to trickle down.
Insane
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u/Stenwold91 8d ago
Trickle down economics doesn’t work because it relies entirely on the selflessness of those at the top
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u/patrickthunnus 8d ago
Trickle down economics are a myth popularized by Reagan. It's only made the rich much, much richer since his time and created an affordability crisis for everyone else.
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u/PsychologyTechnical1 8d ago
When do billionaires not do well? That's what being a billionaire is, someone that is doing very well (at the expense of others).
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u/Kektus_Aplha 8d ago
Well it trickles down alright. The fucked up bullshit trickles straight down...
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u/RicanAzul1980 7d ago
People got pissed at me because I asked if Illinois governor JB Pritzger who is worth 10$ billion if he attended the no billionaires march
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u/Odysseus806 7d ago
Why is it billionaires? What happened to Millionaires? Or is it only because both political parties "leaders" are now millionaires, and they're putting us against ourselves and the ones with more money than them. Just so they don't have to face backlash for having wealth themselves?
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u/Eagle_eye_Online 7d ago
If the billionaires would be suffering, then the government will be at the stage where they pawn off your children to rich Chinese rulers.
Sure tax the rich and all that wet dream stuff the peasants are screeching about, but that's not going to happen.
The billionaires own the government and they own you.
You can push a revolution, but most of you are too scared to go outside to begin with.
And "words hurt".
You'll be doing jack shit about this situation.
Oh and voting for the next string puppet? You think that will remotely matter. The billionaires choose the next string puppet, not you.
And remember kids, downvoting means you understand what I mean but you don't like it. And you believe downvoting makes the scary man go away.
Truth, it doesn't.
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u/alejo699 6d ago
The argument I hear is that if you want to be a billionaire, just become one. Start a business, hire a bunch of people, be a raging success. Wealth is not finite, they say. If you don’t do it you just must be lazy
Of course, no one saying this is a billionaire themselves, so…..
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u/Once-Upon-A-Hill 6d ago
sounds reasonable, all the billionaires I know are going with local realtors and are buying $300,000 homes in working class neighbourhoods to push the prices up.
They are also at local grocery stores buying all the eggs to push up the prices.
That's basically what billionaires do.
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u/Same_Description7641 6d ago
“Trickle down economics “ when the rich piss on the poor and call it a miracle.
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u/DrNinnuxx 8d ago
We've been running the experiment in real time since Reagan, since the early 80s. We have 40+ years of data to compare.
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u/iamtrimble 8d ago
Money won't just magically trickle into your pocket, you still have to play the game for the economy to work for you and it can be tricky but yeah, when their portfolios were doing good so was mine.
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u/theinvisibleworm 8d ago
Is anyone actually saying that, or are we making up arguments in our head
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u/trauma_enjoyer_1312 8d ago
This argument has been the main justification for trickle down economies since Reagan and Thatcher popularized it among conservatives both in the US and internationally. I was taught that shit in school like it was the gospel. Trump ran on it with more or less those exact words both times he campaigned.
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u/ElectronGuru 8d ago edited 8d ago
My theory is that when these people were young, world production had been wiped out by WWII. Along with many people’s supplies and infrastructure. So any new dollar added to production was met with instant sales, producing an explosion of economic benefits.
But that stopped being true once production caught up with demand. The world is now choking on extra production capacity and not having enough customers is the main issue. But that doesn’t deter their enthusiasm for this and all things 50’s.
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u/trauma_enjoyer_1312 8d ago
Mainly it was more of a consequence of the triumph over the Soviet Union but yeah, this was also a big part of it in the sense that it planted the seeds in the decades prior. David Harvey coined the term "spacial fix" for the process by which capitalism "solves" the problem of market oversaturation (see here* for a short introduction). Some of his writings go in a very similar direction to your last two sentences.
*https://publishup.uni-potsdam.de/opus4-ubp/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/2251/file/gr2_01_ess02.pdf
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u/CEOofManualBlinking 8d ago
Trumps economy is nowhere near trickle down economics, nor has any conservative been anywhere close since reagan. Thats a baseless assertions. Trickle-down is a extreme supply-side economy. Trump is toeing the line between a supply-side and demand-side economy.
That would be the equivalent of calling Bernie sanders a fascist
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8d ago
trickle down economic is a leftist strawman label that was never used by advocates of free markets. its a grossly oversimplification supply side economics, which has proven to work
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u/Txrh221 8d ago
Has it? The general theory is that if the wealthy have higher money supply they will reinvest that supply and generally strengthen growth right?
Okay so let’s kick the tires. We have more wealth concentrated in the hands of a smaller group of folks than ever in history.
Production(depending on how one measures it) has never been higher. So why are so many people struggling? Is it because they aren’t working hard enough?
Have we seen the reinvestments in production to match the tax cuts? Doesn’t seem like it.
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8d ago
Lets walk through it:
"The general theory is that if the wealthy have higher money supply they will reinvest that supply and generally strengthen growth right?"
no, most the wealth is invested already (Musk doesn't have $400B in cash sitting in a bank, its invested in his companies, which employ tens of thousands of people alone).
"We have more wealth concentrated in the hands of a smaller group of folks than ever in history."
untrue to a degree, the Gilded Age had the highest ever recorded, but we're near records. but those who are invested are seeing the gains being made by the progress of the companies they're invested in.
"Production(depending on how one measures it) has never been higher. So why are so many people struggling? Is it because they aren’t working hard enough?"
Some people are struggling, but precovid US poverty rate was its lowest ever at 10.5%. Still today its only at 11.1%. Poverty rates are near historic lows. the real issue is a combination of lack of new housing being built and the individuals refusal to relocate to a lower cost of living area and/or consider having roommates. additionally, people are spending money on non-necessities as there's near infinite more ways to spend money with the internet than there was prior to the internet,
Also production might be higher but is it higher because humans became more productive or because companies are providing its employees with technology and tools (at the company's cost) that allow the employee to be more productive at their job? also, the work life balance has never been better, with remote work, gig, economy, etc.). I'm an attorney. It is 1000% easier to do my job today than it would have been 30 years ago due to the internet. I'm vastly more productive but that doesn't necessarily mean I should get paid vastly more because what made my ability to do more in my position has more to do with the technology used than me working harder.
Moreover there's unprecedented choice today on what you can spend your money on. the consumer has never had it better, however what's usually the consumer's issue is that they are unable to not spend money on frivolities and invest that money instead.
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u/NecessaryMolasses926 8d ago
"A rising tide raises all boats," is thrown around all the time.
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u/JGCities 8d ago
But that phrase applies to the overall economy and not just to billionaires.
As in 3% GDP growth is better than 2% GDP growth.
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u/Txrh221 8d ago
Yes actually….
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u/Gorf_the_Magnificent 8d ago
Who?
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u/Txrh221 8d ago
Every single republican, conservative talking head, and influencer anytime taxation comes up.
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u/Gorf_the_Magnificent 8d ago
Please name just one, and provide the quote.
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u/Minibearden 8d ago
I've worked with people who believe this. I have family members who believe this. The handy man in my apartment building believes this. There are a lot of people who believe this because they've been propagandized their whole lives to believe that if they work hard enough, they'll be a billionaire some day too.
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u/spyder7723 8d ago edited 8d ago
Won't make it to billionaire but went from growing up a homeless kid to basically never worrying about money. I'm not driving a rolls royce but I could buy one in cash if I wanted to blow a lot of money.
Is success guaranteed by working hard? Of course not. But you know what is guaranteed by not working hard? Staying poor.
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u/Minibearden 8d ago
I don't believe any of these stories, because every boot licker supposedly started homeless eating dirt for every meal, and look them now! They paid cash for a house just yesterday! A big one too! I hear some variation of this story from almost every single person who says hard work is the key to being rich. Just boot lickers spreading propaganda.
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u/Gorf_the_Magnificent 8d ago
No, no one has ever actually said that. Reddit likes to make up quotes from their adversaries and then debunk them.
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u/RoosterReturns 8d ago
There is a lot going on with this issue, but I think they main issue is cultural and not regulatory or systemic. The idea of trickle down economics is bullshit, but Americans spend too much money on luxury when they can't afford it. You can afford a house if you save more and spend less.
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