Hello everyone,

I have an important tax and wealth question.

👉 Context:

I am a Swiss resident.

I have the option of investing in the stock market for the long term (buy & hold strategy).

I can do this either privately or through an LLC that I already own.

👉 What I understand:

Privately: private capital gains are tax-exempt, but I pay wealth tax on the total value of the portfolio (including unrealized capital gains) plus tax on dividends received.

Through an LLC: capital gains (even unrealized if recorded) are taxed as profit (12–18% depending on the canton), dividends are taxed twice (company + private), but I can deduct expenses.

👉 Concrete example:

If I invest CHF 50,000 and it increases to CHF 70,000 (with CHF 20,000 in unrealized capital gains):

Private: I add CHF 70,000 to my assets → small wealth tax (a few hundred CHF/year).

Limited liability company: the capital gain of CHF 20,000 is taxed as profit → approximately CHF 2–3,000 in immediate tax + capital gains tax.

❓ So, is there a real advantage to using an LLC when investing for the long term, or is it much better to remain private (except in the case of professional trading)?

Thank you in advance for your insights and feedback 🙏

Hey everyone,

I’ve been working on a thought exercise around funding €100k/year of expenses from a portfolio, and I’d love some feedback.

🔘 Scenario 1: High-yield dividend portfolio (~€1.11M starting size)

• Built with a mix of Strategy preferreds (STRF, STRC, STRD), high-yield ETFs (JEPI, JEPQ, XYLD), BDC ETF (BIZD), preferred ETFs (PFF/PFFA), MLPs (AMLP), and one CEF (PDI).

• Blended gross yield ~9.0%.

• That’s about €100,233 gross income/yr.

• After applying 27% dividend tax (Swiss federal tax assumption), net spendable is ~€73,000/yr.

🔘 Scenario 2: VT (Vanguard Total World Stock ETF)

• Start with the same €1.11M.

• Withdraw €100k/yr for expenses (at year-end each year).

• VT’s historical 10-yr CAGR is ~11.2% (through Aug 2025).

• Key Swiss angle: 0% capital gains tax. So all withdrawals are CGT-free, only dividends get taxed (which are minor vs. total return).

☑️ Results after 10 years:

• VT (historical CAGR assumption) → after €1M of withdrawals, portfolio still ~€1.52M. “Ending + spent” = ~€2.52M.

• Dividend portfolio (base case, +1% price drift) → after 10 years, ~€1.23M left + ~€0.73M spent (net) = ~€1.96M.

• Only if VT averages <~8% CAGR does the dividend option pull ahead.

☑️ Takeaways:

• The dividend approach does indeed generate the €100k/yr gross, but after tax the net cashflow is noticeably below target.

• VT + withdrawals looks more favorable in Switzerland specifically because capital gains are untaxed — so compounding works better than harvesting taxed income every year.

• Obviously past returns ≠ future returns, and sequence risk for VT is a factor.

⸻

Curious to hear what the community thinks:

• Does this make sense, or am I missing an angle (esp. around Swiss tax nuances)?

• Would you still prioritize a high-yield approach for the psychological comfort of “income,” or does the math make VT the clear choice?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—

🚨 Edit — Portfolio 1 Allocation (Dividend Income, ~€1.11M starting size)

Strategy preferreds (14%)

• STRF 6% (fixed 10% coupon, cumulative)

• STRC 5% (variable-rate, cumulative, ~9%)

• STRD 3% (10% non-cumulative, higher risk)

Covered-call equity ETFs (38%)

• JEPQ 16%

• JEPI 14%

• XYLD 8%

Credit / preferreds / BDC / energy (28%)

• BIZD 10% (BDC ETF, ~11% yield)

• PFFA 8% (active preferred ETF, ~9%+)

• PFF 4% (core preferred ETF, ~6%+)

• AMLP 8% (midstream MLP ETF, ~8% yield)

CEF “booster” (8%)

• PDI 8% (multi-sector bond CEF, ~13%+, leveraged)

Blended gross yield: ~9.0% → ~€100,233/yr gross dividends, before 27% dividend tax.

I'll start. I'd like to have CHF 100k in annual spending so with a SWR of 3% that would mean my FIRE number would need to be 3.33 million

my spouse and I are both employees and we would like to fire. Our combined net-worth (as per the tax statement) is CHF 7m. We are in our 40s and consider to FIRE. Clearly, we are in a very fortunate financial situation.

I've learned that in Switzerland one would need to pay AHV even as a non-working person. Canton ZH has an online calculator Beiträge von Nichterwerbstätigen which shows that my spouse and I would EACH have to pay ca. CHF 9’400 annually based on our net-worth alone. If we fire'd in ZH, that is a combined CHF 18k for AHV and ca. CHF 30k wealth/property tax: almost CHF 50k annually!

I believe there is a way that ONE of us remains working (e.g. part-time) and sufficiently covers the AHV contributions for both of us. Does any of you know what the minimum gross salary would be for one of us to be emplyoed but to have us both covered for AHV? Is the minimum required salary linked to the net-worth?

I’m in tech, but it’s not fulfilling. I DCA $50/day for the long term, but I want to actually do something with my life now. Not looking to reinvent the wheel just real, working business ideas in Switzerland. Any insights?

edit:

Wow, this post got way more attention than I expected, thanks for all the comments. Since many people reached out with buisness ideas, I’ve opened a small group chat to continue the discussion. If you’re interested in joining, feel free to DM me.

Not much besides the question in the title.

1. Which is better? I do have assets and probably a GmbH would cover them better.

2. Which form would work best with investors' trust?

3. If GmbH: Where can I find addresses in kanton Zurich to register? I live here, but I wouldn't like to put my home address on all papers and privacy policies on my websites.

Thanks!

IBKR has now started to charge -0.420% for uninvested cash balances over CHF 100k. They only charge the interest rate for amounts above 100k meaning that you would pay -0.420% only on CHF 1k if you were holding CHF 101k in cash.

What do you guys to with your uninvested money?

What level of networth do you think will enable FATfire in Switzerland? I'm thinking it will be easily min 10MM if not more. Anyone doing FIRE at those levels or aiming to?

Hi everyone,

I'm a Swiss resident and looking to clarify a specific tax point related to crypto management (mainly Bitcoin) on Kraken.

From a Swiss tax perspective for private individuals (non-professional investors):

🔹 Is converting BTC to fiat currency (USD, EUR, CHF) considered a taxable disposal, i.e., a realization of capital gains?

🔹 And what about converting BTC to stablecoins (e.g., USDT, USDC)? Is that also treated as a taxable event, even if you stay within the crypto ecosystem?

Additionally:

• What are the advantages or disadvantages of converting to stablecoins rather than fiat in this context?
• If the goal is to hold part of the proceeds in stablecoins on the platform without withdrawal, which stablecoin is best suited for a Swiss resident (especially since there's no CHF-backed stablecoin)? USDC? Something else?

Thanks in advance for your insights 🙏

Hi everyone,

I'm a Swiss resident and looking to clarify a specific tax point related to crypto management (mainly Bitcoin) on Kraken.

From a Swiss tax perspective for private individuals (non-professional investors):

🔹 Is converting BTC to fiat currency (USD, EUR, CHF) considered a taxable disposal, i.e., a realization of capital gains?

🔹 And what about converting BTC to stablecoins (e.g., USDT, USDC)? Is that also treated as a taxable event, even if you stay within the crypto ecosystem?

Additionally:

• What are the advantages or disadvantages of converting to stablecoins rather than fiat in this context?
• If the goal is to hold part of the proceeds in stablecoins on the platform without withdrawal, which stablecoin is best suited for a Swiss resident (especially since there's no CHF-backed stablecoin)? USDC? Something else?

Thanks in advance for your insights 🙏

Hello, I have recently quit my job and have decided to move abroad to early retire. However, my retirement funds will only last about 20-30 years. My plan is to move back to Switzerland (I am Swiss) to live off of welfare as by then I'll be too old to work. Has anyone else done this? Thanks 😊

Hey everyone, curious if others have felt this too.

Does almost everyone who quits full-time work (after years in a job or running a business) hit some kind of identity crisis? Whether it’s FI, burnout, retirement, or selling your company—it seems like the same thing happens.

Even full-time parents go through it when kids grow up: suddenly there’s this big empty space.

I’m realizing how much modern life pushes us to build our identity and community around work. And when you step away, there’s no structure or clear idea of who you are anymore.

Is there a way to handle this without just jumping back into another job to fill the gap?

Anyone here found a way to build purpose and connection after leaving work? Would love to hear your stories or advice.

I'm coming up on numbers where FIRE-ing in Switzerland starts to make sense. One wrinkle I'm not sure how to handle is my mortgage.

For context: myself and my partner own a place with reasonably large mortgage (2M) at super low interest. We have roughly 3M in liquid savings, and other 500k locked up in pensions. So we have more than enough to pay it off, but obviously we don't want to do that.

We're not married, have separate accounts, and most of the assets are mine. We split all joint costs 50/50, including the mortgage. She wants to keep working (@ 250K / year). I might FIRE in a few years at 3% withdrawal rate. All good, except maybe the mortgage renewal.

When we renew the mortgage, I obviously wouldn't be working. Here's the worry: We'd still have a reasonable HHI (250k) and loads of assets, but even at current low interest rates the bank might just say "you don't earn enough to renew this" (because of 5% rule). Like they I don't think they'd give us our current mortgage today if we rocked up with 250k HHI + lots of assets, they'd make us pay a much large deposit on the house to reduce the debt.

Flipside is they could look at the assets, judge it low risk and just renew it.

Does anyone have experience here? What's the bank likely to do in our situation?

I figure worst case I can either go back to work or we can always sell and downsize (which is what we'd definitely do if the rate was actually 5%!), we've owned for 5 years so I expect considerable equity. But would be a shame to sell the place just because I took time off from work.

I am more and more considering swapping my ETF for Gold and Bitcoin as the US Dollar and most traditional currencies continue devaluating over time (except CHF but Swiss ETF are not the most profitable to be honest). If I do so I plan to send my ETF from now to late 2025 / early 2026 as I am already in profit and as FED may decrease their rate this year. I don't know yet when I will buy Bitcoin and Gold (probably late 2026 / early 2027 as this period should be a bottom according Bitcoin history).

However it would be a very drastic move and I need external advice about this.

What do you think ? Other people considering doing the same change in their portfolio ?

Hi FIRE folks,
I’m doing a short research project on how people in Switzerland manage their finances, track net worth, and plan for long-term goals. If you’ve got 5 minutes, I’d love your perspective:
https://forms.gle/HEduxKvg8u89ZNuu5

Appreciate the input and happy to share back insights later if helpful

Hi! I am looking forward to my FI 😀. My plan is to use the bucket approach. That means that I will have 2 buckets: 1 bucket with Cash (or Cash like assets) and another one with Stock ETFs. It works that way that at the beginning of each year I will have to check the performance of the stock market of the previous year. If it went bad, i will consume the cash position otherwise i will sell stock ETFs. I will keep 5yr budget in cash to be able to survive also longer lasting crashes. In order to optimize the cash position I am looking for Bond ETFs with fixed maturity date in CHF (like iShare iBonds ETF from Blackrock- but they only provide them in USD or EUR). Cant find anything similiar for reasonable costs. In a foreign currency they are useless for my purpose....

Roughly how much is your annual spend, and income?

Hi people, hope this question is allowed here.

My pensionskasse offers 3 different options for the amount I can pay every month.

I'm doubting between the standard one or the higher one. Is it worth it to pay an extra 30ish Francs a month?

Some additional info, I'm only working 80% Moved to Switzerland in 2020 and planning to stay here for life. I'm in my mid thirties

Kita isn’t forever and if I FIRE my number one expense goes to zero, since I can step in and become a virtual kita/hort, but I assume costs also go up as the kids age.

I had assumed I should have enough to cover kita costs, but is that too conservative? I mean the 4% rule implies CHF 1m invested to cover Kita for three kids, which is just nuts since they will leave the system in two years and then that pot of money should compound minus creep as they eat more and get more demanding. Theoretically they should approach my living costs as they become adults eating adult portions of food and going out.

My basic FIRE calc is CHF 1m for me which is basically mortgage plus health, car and food, CHF 1m for the kita. Plus I take out all inheritance and real estate and pension money since it’s only accessible in like 20 years or not real at all. So I need something around 4m net. I have around 3m.

Does anyone have 18 year old kids and can give me a flavour of how conservative I need to be?

Hi, Everyone!

It is that time of the year and I have joined the "tax-confused" gang it seems. I am in a bit of a confusing situation. I have to admit, taxes and finances have not been my strongest point.

My situation is as follows: I am currently on a permit B and for the first time i maxed out my 3a pillar in 2024 as I felt everyone was doing that and seems like the right thing to do. However, now I realised that if I request to do my own taxes instead of being taxed at source, I might end up paying more in the end instead of getting tax deduction money back.

I live in Lausanne. Currently I make a bit more than 110k gross, but until beginning of July I was making ~83k gross. During July i did not work (between jobs). I was advised that I made a mistake by putting my money in the 3a for now and would have been better if i just put the money in ETFs until I got my C permit or reached 120k salary.

Now I am in a confusion: how can I figure out whether I will have to pay extra (or get so little back that doing my own taxes is just a waste of time and stress) if i request to do my own taxes? Do i just accept I made a mistake with the 3a and stay taxed at source until i reach 120k or get my C permit (and not contribute to 3a anymore in the meantime)? What online calculators can I use to compare?

I would really appreciate some advice if anyone has the knowledge and time to offer it. Thanks a lot!

After paying off my student debt 18 months ago, I yesterday reached a net worth of CHF 100k, split as follows:

- 55% of stocks (CHF 55k)

- 41% of cash and equivalent (CHF 41k)

- 4% of gold (CHF 4k)

- No debt

The cash equivalent is large only because my pension fund can now only be invested in cash (even if returns are higher than what cash would normally offer). This percentage will decrease with time as I invest more into stocks each month than new monthly contributions to the pension).

Short-term objective: Reaching CHF 100k of equities invested in my portfolio by year end, and CHF 50k in my pension fund, or a total of roughly CHF 150k net worth.

I know owning a home isn't necessarily very popular for FIRE strategies, but hear me out:

• I have CHF 200K in my second pillar. This money is losing value because it only has a fixed interest rate of 1.25%.
• I'm currently paying CHF 2700 for rent.

What if I used the 200k to buy a small house or apartment ("Wohneigentumsförderung/Vorbezug")?

• My CHF 2700 rent would be replaced with CHF 800 mortgage payments and CHF 500 in maintenance costs.
• Amortization is a null-sum game since I'm paying money to reduce my debt on a house that I own. Less debt = more for me when I eventually sell the home.
• I'll have to pay roughly 20k in additional taxes the first year for the WEF.
• Roughly CHF 2-3000 in additional taxes each year for home ownership.

I know that when I'll retire, in roughly 10 years:

• I should be able to sell the home at a profit
• I need to put 200k back into the second pillar
• I'll get back the taxes I paid when I took out the 200k
• I can then immediately dissolve my second pillar because I'm "leaving Switzerland definitely". So effectively I'll be getting control of the 200K again, and can then reinvest them into ETFs.

This sounds like a pretty good deal to save on rent and even make a small profit from the house's value increase. Is there a mistake in my reasoning? Something I'm not seeing?

Hey guys, i am a 22yo male from Norway aspiring to FIRE by 35.

I have a net worth of around 200k €, and currently work as a crane operator.

I have 3years experience driving dump trucks and shy of 1year experience with cranes and crane trucks.

The last few years alot of wealthy Norwegians have moved abroad to Switzerland because of the increasingly higher and strict taxes. Switzerland has a tax agreement with norway which makes it a favorable country to exit Norway.

As we have an Exit tax i figure it is smarter no move as fast as possible to reduce the future taxation of my net worth as much as possible.

As i dont have any further education than my Truck, Crane and machine operator licenses, im wondering how much is it possible to make in these careers in Switzerland? How hard is it to find work as a foreigner? And lastly i wonder how are the opportunites to for example start your own dump truck business as owner operator?

Although my german is very bad, this is something i am gonna work hard on the next year, as i have heard it is an important factor for living and working in Switzerland.

Hoi zäme,

36M here, not so much actively planning retirement at a specific age but mostly aiming for that peace of mind that I can make it if things start going wrong one day. I am not there yet, started investing (80% VOO) at 33 so lost quite some time. Now almost saving 50% of my income.

What is your FI amount for Swiss and no Swiss standards? At which point you would say "I am independent and may work if it gives me joy but can also make it without"?

Just want to hear some thoughts to see how far I am from reality. Thanks!

TLDR:

• 33, M, NW: 850k CHF, income: 210k gross, saving: 115k, originally from eastern 🇪🇺, 5 years in 🇨🇭
• open to suggestions on FIRE, on what to buy, and on life in general

Written on 5th of January 2025 (took some time to edit and publish).

This is my first post on my FIRE journey. First public, and also a first piece I write for myself on the topic.

1) Why do I write this?

I hope the status update / diary format will:

• help me clarify and structure my thoughts
• keep a level of accountability
• help realise the progress made
• get ideas and inputs from others, for some of the aspects I might be missing
• share in a likeminded group
• potentially inspire others on the journey, or about to start it

2) Current status

NW: ~850k CHF

• investment acount: 722  
• Swiss pillar 3a pension: 45
• Swiss pillar 2 pension: 70
• other assorted (financial assets): 13
• no debt, no real estate, no crypto
• I do have some accrued "pillar 1" pension in CH and other european country. But I don't include this potential future income stream here.

annual income:

• working 95%
• ~210k CHF gross / ~150k CHF net (incl. the income tax)

net annual savings:

• ~115k CHF (invested to portfolio and 3a)

investment portfolio:

• passive investment, developed world

single, 33 y.o.

3) Why am I on the FIRE journey?

This is one of the areas I need to develop and discover more. The why? of it.

Some of my early memories (from beginning of elementary school) are making FIRE calculations. In that sense I was "always on the journey." But I must question the meaningfulness of this, to search the reasons behind.  

I focus on spending time meaningfully.

Financial side is only one pillar of living a happy life.

So I focus on developing other areas as well. More on that below. That said, the financials is something that was somehow always a hobby. And I feel I'm naturally fairly good with it. If anything, I try to not spend too much of my focus and concentration on optimizing and calculating. Because then I might be financially independent, but very much a slave to finance.

4) FIRE history

I'm originally from low/mid COL country in EU. Now since 5 years in Switzerland.

Since university I'm on a good corporate career track. So fairly nice income (for the country), always good savings rates.

I do have quite detailed tracker of savings and composition of those over the years, but not include in detail here (maybe in the future).  

5) FIRE future

a. What I expect in 2025

• Salary increase to roughly ~250k CHF gross.
• Buying a car (minivan).
• Depending on the market, hitting the 1M CHF NW milestone.
• I will try to reduce the ammount of work.    
  • I hope I can realistically get to ~75% contract (end of 2025).
  • Of course this reduces my income, but generally I feel comfortable financially.
  • And I'd like to focus on leisure, play and  other "pillars" of happy, fullfilling life ¹

b. Future scenarios

I still need to develop this area a lot. I focus a lot of spending my time meaningfully, on helping others, on learning and developing as a person, on growing my other "pillars" ¹ . But how that looks, or even what are the possible pathways, is still in early stages of thinking and planning.

One option is to move back to MCOL EU homecountry (geoarbitrage).

I will likely work in some capacity even once I move away from current job. (Simply because I like being active, creative, builder of things and organisations.) But potentially in a field with relatively low pay.

c. Ideas I'm playing with / considering

• Series of session with a life/financial coach (to help develop and asses some of those future scenarios)
• Better understanding the options to optimize financially my life in CH,
• and better understanding regarding how to handle potential move to home country (presumably via consultation with Treuhand = Tax Advisor)
• How does my spending/cost change in long-term relationship, and especially with kids? How to plan for this, what are the scenarios?

6) My concerns, Risks

I'm risk averse. One implication is that it's not so easy to "pull the plug" regarding FIRE without a cushy reserve. But I'm mentally getting there.

7) Other

I decided to also write a few notes regarding status and thinking regarding the pillars but will keep this out of this post to focus primarily on the financial part (but I'm a fan of holistic approach to life, integrating all these areas, as necessary part of financial considerations).

¹ When I refer to pillars of happy life, beyond financials wellbeing, I'm thinking of: relationships, health & fitness, art, nature, skills & knowledge and potentially also life meaning(s) (in sense of Viktor Frankl) and some spiritual layer.