r/TheDragonPrince • u/MrBKainXTR Soren • Nov 22 '19

Discussion The Dragon Prince : S3E9 - Discussion Thread

Season 3 Episode 9

No spoilers for episodes beyond the relevant discussion thread!

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223

u/Pandapartypc Nov 22 '19

Claudia is breaking all our hearts but she's the most well-written character in this show.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

I feel this show is basically redoing all the Last Airbender tropes, but cool and differently

She's basically a less sociopathic and human Azula.

And her brother is a more comic Zuko.

It's really shows how tropes in stories aren't a bad thing when you give them sufficient variation.

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u/StandardTrack Nov 23 '19

Tropes are but a piece of a large schematic. If you mix and match enough, there's endless combinations.

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u/Pandapartypc Nov 22 '19

That said, what an amazing finale and what an epic final battle. I loved all the fanservice moments, like Queen Aanya saving the day and murdering the fuck out of Kasef, that was iconic lmao.. She killed him in like 2 seconds sksksksk.

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Also, I really don't like Aaravos, like I don't get the hype. Is anyone else not a fan of his overpowered all-knowing -ness? He's a total villain sue which is the same problem the original Avatar had and like, honestly this show would be a million times better if Viren and Claudia were the main villains and Aaravos wasn't a thing. More than anything, his presence and the weird plot loops to justify him being there and then the lampshading jokes about it were just... they bothered me more than anything, really. I get they're setting up the next segment, but he just felt so.. NOT integral to this story, and whenever he's around he's just a villain sue. Frustrating.

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u/Atadreanar Nov 22 '19

I kind of felt sorry for Kasef. I mean I don't think he was a bad guy I think he was angry and trying to do the right thing but was blinded by rage. You see this in how he spoke to Ezran. He wasn't really directing those things at Ezran, I think he was directing them at himself.

He also seemed to lose all sentience when Viren transmuted him. I'm also not entirely sure he's dead. It seemed to easy even though he took an arrow in the eye. He was a lot different from the other soldiers Viren changed.

13

u/Pandapartypc Nov 22 '19

Don't get me wrong i see his complexity and enjoyed him too i just thought the moment by itself was so good and satisfying.

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u/Atadreanar Nov 22 '19

Oh aye I thought it was epic, just well a shame as there could have been a lot of growth with him coming to terms with his anger and going on to redeem himself. That said thought it’s unlikely he could be alive still. I mean the soldiers survived dragon fire after all.

It’s interesting that he looks kind of similar to the Titan in season 2. Makes me wonder if this is something arravos has done before.

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u/Jahoan Nov 23 '19

The episode with the transformation was called "Hearts of Cinder", and the item they needed to deal with the famine was the heart of a Titan.

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u/Pandapartypc Nov 22 '19

I thought the same thing when he was being transformed then dismissed it! It's an interesting theory and i definitely wouldn't put it past the creators to keep everyone alive.

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u/Wolf6120 Am I your little bug pal? Nov 23 '19 edited Nov 23 '19

Yeah, the guy just thought he was avenging his dad. Bit of a douche about it but I doubt he originally intended to get caught up in Viren's psychotic army of monstrosities. Plus he was pretty cute so it'd be a bit of a shame if he went out like that lol.

Also, if he is dead then I imagine the fact that Aanya 360 NoScope'd him like that might put some strain on the diplomatic relations between Duren and Neolandia in the future.

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u/kunta021 Nov 23 '19

I definitely wish they hadn’t killed him off. Seemed like there was a lot more mileage left with his character and I would’ve enjoyed a redemption arc.

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u/Atadreanar Nov 23 '19

I'm still not sure he actually died. I mean yeah he did fall sideways he did take an arrow to the face. But if they can survive dragon fire then how can a simple arrow kill him?

There's also the added fact that he managed to take a few steps forward before collapsing. Though this could just be dramatic effect and we have to take into consideration it is a fantasy, but an arrow to the eye is likely to kill right away. It seemed more like a fall into unconsciousness. At least that's my hope. I think he has a lot of potential to be a redemption arc and there is the added fact that he resembled the titan from season 2 which made me think that maybe that is the fate of those Arravos touches.

I also think, that his behaviour was odd from the moment he visited Viren in the cell. Before that he was brash, angry and outspoken. Afterwards he was a bit.. subservient. Bar the offer to be the first to accept Viren's gift. After that they made him walk.. a prince walk and he never spoke a single word again only guttural screams of rage. All in all i think there is much more to his situation than meets the eye.

5

u/theVoidWatches Nov 23 '19

He was imbued with fire specifically so he'd be immune to dragon fire. He had no such protection against arrows.

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u/InstitutionalizedOat Nov 22 '19

I think the point of him being there is that Viren wouldn’t have gone so far off the deep end if Aaravos wasn’t whispering in his ear all the time and manipulating him. He wouldn’t have gone to the sunfire elves at all if it wasn’t for Aaravos. He wouldn’t be trying to conquer all of Xadia if it wasn’t for Aaravos. They had to set those things into motion for stuff that happens later, I’m sure. Probably could’ve been done more subtly but I think they were trying to keep this season at a more brisk pace.

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u/AsymmetricPanda Nov 22 '19

Plus I’m feeling that Aaravos will be the “true” villain. He’s just using Claudia and Viren as pawns. Even Viren was reluctant to address Claudia as an “asset.”

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u/InstitutionalizedOat Nov 22 '19

Oh, definitely. That part where Aaravos puts the stuff on Viren’s eye and says “I can better serve you” it definitely feels more like he’s saying “you can better serve me.”

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u/Bobyyyyyyyghyh Captain Villads Nov 25 '19

100%. And when he reffered to claudia as an asset, to me it sounded like he was implying "[to myself]"

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u/theVoidWatches Nov 23 '19

Yeah, he's definitely going to be the big bad in later seasons. They needed to set it up like this so he won't come from nowhere.

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u/_7thGate_ Nov 25 '19

Yeah, he's definitely going to be the big bad in later seasons. They needed to set it up like this so he won't come from nowhere.

I don't know...before this season, I would have said almost certainly. Now though, with what's happened to Claudia, I feel like there is a distinct minority chance its going to be her.

I could definitely see Aaravos trying to play her like he played her father, it getting to a certain point, perhaps involving her father's permanent destruction and Claudia just being like "No. You betrayed my father, you set him up to take the power of the dragon prince for your own use, your own gain. To absorb the power of the greatest and most powerful magical being in Xadia for your own glorification, before you discarded us as useful dupes.

But do you know what else is a great and powerful magical being, threatening all of humanity, just waiting to be taken for my use? A certain ancient startouched elven archmage. *Remove Soul*"

Cue Claudia moving to complete Viren's dream of human supremacy in remembrance of her father.

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u/theVoidWatches Nov 25 '19

I don't really buy it. I mean, what happened with Claudia that made her so irredeemable this season? She's just continued to be manipulated by her emotionally abusive father. If her ultimate fate is villainy, I think it'll just be as Aaravos's next victim - being manipulated by him as substitute for Viren after his presumed death. And I still think that she's going to be redeemed, in the end.

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u/_7thGate_ Nov 25 '19

I hope she is, actually. I love her character, she's probably my favorite character on the show, and its extremely sad what is happening to her. The thing is, she's slipping, and slipping hard since Soren left. She just committed human sacrifice to resurrect her father. She just tricked her brother, one of the two people she most deeply cared for in the world, into committing illusionary patricide, and she was satisfied about the pain she brought him while doing it, presumably as a form of payback for leaving her.

She's getting dark, and Aaravos has heavily implied that she's going to be his next pawn after he's done burning through Viren. I can see Claudia's story going a few different possible ways; she can be Aaravos' next victim, and either succumb to him in the end (potentially as part of a redemption arc for Viren) or be redeemed herself by some combination of Viren/Soren/Callum as part of the push to deal with Aaravos in the end game.

Alternatively, Claudia is strong. Its implied she has much greater potential than Viren, and the fact she's performing self-taught necromancy kind of highlights that. It may turn out that Aaravos has bitten off more than he can chew when he tries to use Claudia the same way he used her father. She's been indoctrinated by her father to protect humanity from the Xadian threat at all costs, and if she realizes that her father and her are getting played by an ancient elven archmage, well...it could get ugly for Aaravos.

Her story, more than anyone else in the show, can be believably taken in a number of different directions. Following through her story to the end is honestly the part I am looking most forward to in seasons 4 through 7.

5

u/sketch162000 Nov 26 '19

All excellent points.

Also Claudia and Callum shared a childhood attraction, with the implication being that she and Callum probably would have ended up together if not for the events of the story. But now with Rayla in the picture (and almost certainly the OTP,) Claudia is being set up to lose everyone she's ever cared about, (her mother, her father, her brother, and her love) which will undoubtedly isolate her and drive her over the edge.

I'm already cringing in anticipation for when she finds out that Callum truly loves Rayla in way she will never know with him (and probably with anyone) from this point forward. Morbidly watching poor Claudia slowly get led to the dark side is damn fine TV though haha.

19

u/NekoNegra Nov 23 '19

Also, I really don't like Aaravos, like I don't get the hype.

He's a very pretty elf that was/is androgynous until he spoke his first word and most of his fans (including myself) collectively orgasmed.

What I'm saying is, most of us like him because...he be fine.

3

u/falconfetus8 Dec 01 '19

Straight male here. I came when I heard his voice too.

15

u/Sneakyniek Nov 22 '19

I like aaravos because of his voice

14

u/Jout92 Nov 23 '19

Is Villain Sue even a thing? Is there such a thing as a too OP villain? Isn't that the point of a good villain that he makes you feel there's nothing you could ever do against him?

That said for a supposed "villain sue" his plans backfire a lot. Unless that of course is also part of the plan...

2

u/Pandapartypc Nov 23 '19

Yes villain sue is a thing and it makes the story frustrating to watch, because there’s no compelling struggle. The villain isn’t believable. Only small children believe in all powerful all knowing villains and heroes. So having Aaravos literally be God in villain form is annoying. He has a great voice and design but his character lacks any sort of complexity.

9

u/Jout92 Nov 23 '19

Inherently what's the problem with an all powerful villain? I get that Mary Sues are frustrating because they point of a heroes journey is to grow and a Mary Sue can't grow, but a villain is SUPPOSED to be in a higher position so this seems like an absolutely dumb complaint to me

1

u/Pandapartypc Nov 23 '19

Because a villain is far more compelling when their fight to power is shown, when they had to struggle to get where they are and still have to struggle to pull off their plan. It’s much more believable and entertaining when the villain has faced actual conflict b4 and you have their limits tested. Because right now it’s clear tdp has the same exact problem Avatar had with ozai. An all powerful ultimate villain with no personality other than Evil, where everything is going to come down to only one epic fight at the end

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u/Jout92 Nov 23 '19

Ehhh that's really generalizing and I disagree with that statement. Villains aren't always more compelling by showing them struggle. Sometimes a villain is more compelling if he really seems all powerful and unbeatable. Think Darth Vader. Think Frieza. We don't know enough about Aaravos to compare him to Oozai so that comparison is really dumb to be me too. We knew Oozai was after world domination from the first minute. We still don't know what Aaravos wants.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

He's not the villian for the first three seasons. Viren is.

I suspect all the things you want will be done in the fourth season.

1

u/Pandapartypc Nov 23 '19

Im aware that's why i felt like he didn't need to be in these seasons. He was not integral to the story at all.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

I feel like there would be equally as many complaints if a new villian just randomly appeared season 4.

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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote Nov 23 '19

If you think the original Avatar had a ‘villain sue’ you so blatantly have no idea what that phrase means it’s not funny.

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u/Pandapartypc Nov 23 '19

Ozai has no personality other than being a generic evil overlord, that's what makes him a bad villain. In the first 3 books, that is also true for Aaravos. There's no need to get hostile with your opinion, buddy. We can treat others with respect.

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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote Nov 23 '19

That’s not what a ‘Villain sue’ means for starters, and that’s a poor assessment anyway.

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u/Pandapartypc Nov 23 '19

I'm aware of what the term Villain Sue means, don't patronize me lol. Villain Sue means the same thing as Mary Sue except they're a villain, and that's exactly what Aaravos and Ozai both are. They're all powerful all knowing entities who get everything they want and everything goes their way up until the very last moment, the epic final battle where the hero triumphs. It's not a poor assessment, it's the truth. Again, there's no need to get hostile and patronizing towards others just because you're a fan and you don't agree.

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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote Nov 24 '19

I’m not patronising you, the definition you gave earlier when asked was not what the definition is. You were wrong.

It’s a poor assessment, if they were on screen all the time having an active role then maybe they could be - but they were background villains. They didn’t have enough presence to be villain sues.

I’m not getting hostile? You seem to get offended and have a cry way too quickly when someone points out you’re wrong, grow up.

0

u/Pandapartypc Nov 24 '19

Except the first comment wasn’t asking me what villain sue meant, I wasn’t giving a definition. I was stating a problem with Ozai that also applies to Aaravos. You are the one that’s wrong here. Can you really argue with my assessment that Aaravos knows everything and this is all part of his master plan which will go right up until the final battle? Bc that much is very obvious in my opinion.

Ozai May have accomplished his role in the story, but he doesn’t need a biopic to be a compelling villain, he needs struggle and personality. Especially for the story Avatar is trying to tell, it’s messy.

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u/PmYourWittyAnecdote Nov 24 '19

You don’t need to show struggle and personality or you’re a villain sue. That’s not how it works lmao.

3

u/trombonepick Nov 24 '19

I'm not mad about Firelord Ozai because I think the character did what it needed to.

Zuko and Azula's storylines: Ozai was raised by a man raised by a sociopath (sociopaths go along with: Azulon, their grandpa who Azula takes after) and pressured to act like one too. He can't actually kill so he makes Ursula do it...showing his 'weak' side.

Ozai being heartless is part of what triggers Azula's downfall too. People kind of forget that. It wasn't just her mom, her friends, it was also realizing the man she was fighting for really didn't give a shit either way what she did. Ozai didn't care about her because he's a narcissist, so all the stuff about him being proud and loving her the most? BS and pageantry. It never mattered.

Aang's storyline: Ozai is seemingly the ultimate form of evil. Pit that against Aang's pacificism and things get complicated. Everyone expects him to go against his beliefs and take the fire lord out because Ozai is unredeemable.

Iroh vs. Ozai storyline: Iroh was going to be Fire Lord but lost his son and realized he'd been prioritizing everything the wrong way. Ozai is there as bitter irony. He doesn't care about the children he still has. It's a nice way of showing Iroh's story and he's a more important character than Ozai.

If these things weren't in there, I might be less swayed, but Ozai did what he needed to do. He represented a firm hand. He represented abuse. He's definitely a simple, pretty 2D drawn character but sometimes that's ¯_(ツ)_/¯. He does remind me of people from history, like Kim Jong-Un. And I definitely didn't feel like "Oh man, I need Ozai's biopic." lol.

And we've known Aavaros for like two seconds but it does seem like we're going to get his history at some point and it'll be important. Too soon to really know if he's a Villain Sue or not.

1

u/flofjenkins Dec 10 '19

Can we just kill the terms Villain Sue, Gary Sue, and Mary Sue? Like, burn in a fire?

I think it’s more productive to think about a character’s power or skill level in regards to how they function within the narrative (especially on a thematic level), as opposed to throwing around creative writing 101 terminology that’s really just expressing personal story preferences in a pseudo academic way. I get it — characters tend to be more engaging when they struggle, but sometimes characters can better serve the story when they don’t.

I’m a little cranky because people basically ruined the Star Wars discourse for me by doing stuff like this.

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u/CakeBoss16 Nov 24 '19

I think they are doing a fantastic job with building her into a villian.

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u/apackalama Dec 02 '19

I agree. I realized after finishing the season the reason why it was so easy to see her doing so many evil things was partly because she was so smart and possibly always wanting to impress. I could see her eagerness to please was a large part to play with her keeping a close relationship with Viren. It's just so well written, so believable, so layered and complexed. Claudia is by FAR my favorite character.

Just that last shot, where she tells Viren quietly that he didn't survive, and when she turns her head you can see half her hair had turned white... yikes. What a chilling moment.

1

u/ajp1195 Sun Nov 22 '19

Just like Azula was in Avatar

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u/Antanarim Dark Magic Nov 23 '19

Azula was a sadistic psychopath. Claudia is nowhere near that bad.

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u/GrumpySatan Nov 23 '19

They are mirrors really.

Azula started as someone you hated but got more sympathetic as things went on. Claudia started out more sympathetic and is delving progressively into more dark and corruptive magic.

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u/Khieverbooks Nov 23 '19

I think that’s what makes her so well written. She’s not just a psychopath - she’s a human with the ability to turn good or bad

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u/Antanarim Dark Magic Nov 23 '19

Yeah, Azula was evil even as a kid. Same with Ozai, he just seemed to be evil as well.

But I think the Fire Nation was a much bigger threat than Viren (who kind of fails at the end of each season).

1

u/Khieverbooks Nov 23 '19

I honestly think Aaravos is going to be the “big” threat. Or Claudia. Viren will get them both there, but in the end I don’t think he’s as powerful as he thinks he is

4

u/trombonepick Nov 24 '19

Viren seems so weak to me. Like I know he's got some magic tricks but he's such a puppet. I totally expect Claudia to be a bigger threat than him some day. Viren's just like her villain origin story (or that's what it feels like...)

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u/omnitricks The Hero We Need Nov 23 '19

Claudia is just precious and I want things to get better for her.

2

u/kunta021 Nov 23 '19

As far characters go, Azula is the GOAT.

3

u/trombonepick Nov 24 '19

Haha 100%.

It was so fun to see a competent villain who could also just deliver devastatingly clever burns. (pun intended)

3

u/kunta021 Nov 25 '19

I still get chills thinking about how fantastic she was in Crossroads of Destiny when she flipped the Dai Li.