Wolf v Verlux Practice

[u/Verlux]

Origin(Wolf)

No additional stipulations beyond those in the linked RT

Vs

Hino Choko(Verlux)

Starts mask off

Kengan arena standard unless wolf wants a different arena, I dont really care at all tbh

[u/yTigerCleric]

Point 1 - I Win, But This Time It's Because The Author Would Think I Would Too, The Judges Would Too, Chat Would, So Would Hino Choko

Hino Choko's only fight is where he loses to someone who is worse than Origin

Every debate in which someone participates is one where you must argue you win by necessity in order to advance. However practice matches delineate from this somewhat in that users are able to freely set up matches themselves. In that light it might be tempting to say that I'm arguing I win because I saw an opportunity to do so, when I saw the character's RT. In reality, my thoughts on the match are unrelated to this, because it was proposed in chat with an already established Origin, and then I agreed to it.

This is a distinct framing from, say, arguing a street tier beats a DC S-tier and going "I wouldn't say this if I don't believe it!" as I would have in Zazie vs Black Adam. Or, say, something arguing about Deku and Juggernaut.

The framing of my argument in this match is that Origin wins overwhelmingly, and that I'm not arguing this because I have to, but that I want to, specifically in the context of Origin not only being antithetical - Origin being the type of thing that fundamentally invalidates the type of thing Hino, the enemy, is - Origin not only being better - Origin having superior stats, superior offense/defense/tenacity - but Origin being better at invalidating the type of thing Hino is than the things that have already invalidated Hino.

Point 2 - Like Sending Pigeons After A Cat

Origin vivisects him in 0 seconds

Origin is a bullet timer. A human cannot dodge a bullet at any distance - the speed is not only too great, so great that a human would need even a slow handgun bullet to be traveling distances like a tenth of a mile or hundreds of meters, they are not ever capable of perceiving a bullet mid flight at any distance.

Hino Choko is not a bullet timer. He is slower than Origin. Kamiizumi, Hino Choko's enemy, is faster than Hino Choko. Kamiizumi is not a bullet timer. He is slower than Origin.

• Origin is fast enough to stop bullets with the tip of his sword. He can do this because he sees at a rate of twenty million frames per second.

  • This is a wide margin above catching a bullet, which is itself a wide margin above merely deflecting or hitting a bullet. It is possibly the most precise type of interaction you can have with a bullet. Origin isn't "just a bullet timer" in the same way Bob Munden isn't "just a cowboy."

• Hino Choko, the opposition here, is textually being described as so quick he's "hardly" human. This reasonably implies being within a margin of human speed. It does not reasonably imply relation to supersonic velocities.

  • His opponent - who beats him - is described as having "reaction speed and agility" which "surpass human bounds." This still implies a reasonable comparison to human bounds, and it specifically mentions "reaction speed and agility" and not "movement or travel"
  • Origin's "reaction speed" is 0 and the robots "agility" is being able to bend over and eat their own assholes

This isn't me starting to antifeat post, this is me describing their best feats in factual terms. Hino Choko and the swordsman who kill him do not have speed sections outside of each other.

"Hino Choko is so fast, he's unable to tag someone who is described as reacting quicker than normal humans" is the literal, textual description of his Respect Thread.

If you look in the biography (not the speed section), his best actual interaction is with an arrow. A modern arrow is, super generously, 100 m/s, and a medieval bow like this is probably closer to 50 m/s on the opposite lower end. The slowest reasonable speed for a handgun is more like 250 m/s, and more reasonable like 375 m/s for something like a glock.

• Origin intercepts a bullet, at point blank range, on reaction, and then consistently intercepts bullets from a further distance by stopping them precisely with the tip of his sword, zero margin of error, zero mistakes, every single time

  • If Origin is 1 meter away and intercepting a 250 m/s bullet, he is acting in four milliseconds.
  • If Kamiizumi is 2 meters away and intercepting a 100 m/s arrow, he is acting in twenty milliseconds.

Huge, unreasonable concessions and assumptions against Origin still leave his feat as being multiple times better. It's not even worth it to consider more pragmatic values (375 m/s, .5 m vs 3-4 meters, 50 m/s)

• Origin consistently intercepts bullets at a multitude of ranges, even when moving forward into the attacks

• Origin physically dodges a bullet within a room of distance, this is also reiterated in the official translation, despite Da nailing 5 perfectly accurate headshots, Origin is able to move out of the way in the time of the bullet travelling

• In the timeframe of a falling object moving no visible distance, Da, Origin's inferior, is able to not only grab her head (reacting in the timeframe of milliseconds based on the relative falling objects) but also fire off a number of rounds, moving her fingers at excessive speed to do so

• In the time it takes for Da to move her hand maybe a foot, Origin can flash-step across an entire room (wall?) to blitz her before she can even fire and vivisects her four times before she hits the ground

  • Again, to reiterate, Da moves her hands fast enough that multiple consecutive panels with her moving her hands depict falling objects as frozen.
  • Hino's opponent, someone one gorillion times faster than Hino Choko, moves a conservative distance in relation to "quick falling big man", he certainly never Reacts + Thinks + Starts Moving + Does Action + Finishes Moving + Reacts again in the time a flung object moves 0 inches

Point 3

I know we say this a lot but I really do just win

• Da can tank close range machine gun fire, such that it damages her face but causes no damage to her CPU.

Origin massively exceeds this threshhold.

• Origin decapitates Da and slices through the gun she's carrying in his very first attack. His ideal strategy is to physically remove the head from the body.

• When this is insufficient, he resorts to vivisecting her in four separate places - what's notable about this feat is that, not only is his sword sharp enough to physically cut a bulletproof humanoid - his sword is so sharp that it can cut a falling metal humanoid - it's so sharp that, the force of the sword, impacting at speeds so significant that shockwave physics are in play, instead of partially cutting through it, slices cleanly through it all the way. Da only weighs 90 or so pounds to begin with.

  • Cutting a watermelon with a sword is easy, if you try to cut a watermelon someone throws at you midair you're going to fuck yourself up

• This level of vivisection is itself a requirement for defeating robots

Hino Choko is made of flesh, and not flesh resistant enough to withstand this cutting, nor is he fast enough to defend himself. In a scenario where Hino can't even see his opponent moving, literally every single slash he takes is in a non-vital area

-> https://i.imgur.com/fmroVsX.png <-

• Even when this enemy is so completely overwhelming that he's able to attack him prone, he chooses the single spot on the face that would not feasibly kill you, like the difference people with guns shooting at characters who are bulletproof in a kids cartoon vs shooting are characters who aren't

When Hino's enemy does try to target the vitals an opponent who physically can't see him moving, the narration again refers to reflexes of an "inhuman" tier; Hino doesn't land initiative or do anything or damage the sword or land an attack, he gets immediately owned again anyway.

The speed feat for Hino is "blocks a sword so fast that he can't see it" and the speed feat for the sword is "so fast that Hino can't see it when he blocks it."

• Even when the enemy does take him seriously enough to blind him, the entire subtext of this fight is "TEEHEE~ like omgggg i like TOTALLY love like slashing you up this fight is so fun yayY!!!!"

  • Origin is physically, psychologically and technologically devoid of emotions in this regard. He has the will to win, but cannot derive dopamine or adrenaline from holding back or prolonging a fight.

Hino Choko is not a bullet timer. He is slower than Origin. Kamiizumi, Hino Choko's enemy, is faster than Hino Choko. Kamiizumi is not a bullet timer. He is slower than Origin.

Origin is able to vivisect Hino before Hino is physically capable of reacting or moving to defend himself, he gets blitzed.

those are some awesome strength feats too bad i'm not openin' em

[u/Verlux → u/yTigerCleric]

Response 1 - Practice Hino vs Origin

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and argue I actually win a debate in this response. Shocking, I know

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Why Hino Wins

Durability

• Wolf makes some good arguments on Origin's piercing capabilities vis-a-vis his sword but really does fundamentally miss out on a key part of the feat: deflecting bullets literally chips away at the blade. This shows that the blade abides the laws of physics and that sufficient force, regardless of the blade's 'sharp' qualities, is going to destroy the blade. Impacting something with resistance toward the blade breaks it for a fact

• Hino's skeleton is likened to armor, explicitly that can withstand the power of his offensive feats which means the third law of thermodynamics gives him the dura for every offensive feat he performs, with said feats including his open palm warping thick metal, meaning his bones are of such a density that they withstand, without any damage to his person, the impact of bending thick iron bars.

• Further, Hino's skeleton is sufficient enough that his foe, Kamiizumi, cannot even damage his bones; this is especially noted since Kamiizumi's blows break apart Hino's metal cuffs mid-fight meaning his every slash can outright take apart or damage very dense and thick amounts of metal, as opposed to Origin slicing through thin cross-sections of metal

• All this to say: Origin's blade CAN break on impact, Hino's skeleton DOES resist blades and impacts that slash apart and deform thick amounts of metal, and I don't think slashing through thin cross-sections of metal (while impressive in a vacuum) is sufficient to claim Origin cuts Hino up without the blade shattering on impact.

• Further food for thought: Origin himself states blades are a weakness of robotic bodies like his and Da's, the bulletproof part literally isn't really relevant to the blade's piercing capabilities is it really? It's sorta like a bulletproof vest and how they're explicitly vulnerable to knives, y'know? Bullet-resistance and blade-resistance really are disparate things, that knife I link above went right through IIIA Kevlar, that shit stops a .44 magnum round and Da's face was getting torn up by 9mm ammunition so why are we using that as a litmus for his sword's capabilites when a regular-ass knife, per Origin's words, would do the same thing?

Offense

• Origin can't take a single blow from Hino, let's just get that out of the way. I don't even anticipate this to be argued against since a headbutt from Hino sends a large metal cage flying dozens of meters while simultaneously busting the stone dragon ornamentations atop it from the impact, cage and dragons for reference

• Beyond the headbutt, there's also the open-palm slaps deforming thick metal bars on impact I discuss above under his durability, and Origin just doesn't have durability that hangs on this level

Speed

• Hino only needs to tag Origin ONCE before somehow dying to win this fight. I'll just go off wolf's estimates for Kamiizumi having 20ms reactions since he used that off the cuff; the assumption is he reacts to the arrow in about 20ms, but how fast is the sword moving? Kami draws, slashes, spins his blade numerous times, and re-sheathes all by the time the arrow has moved an additional two meters beyond his seated person; that means he draws out a 3-foot blade, makes a slashing motion to above his head, twirls it multiple times, and then drops it back to his hip and places all 3 feet of blade back squarely into its sheathe for a total of an absolute minimum ballpark guess of 7~8 meters of movement (1 meter per sheathing motion, 1.5 meters apiece for going above head and back, 1 meter per rotation of blade) in the time the arrow travels 3-4 total, meaning he moves that blade 1.5-2 times as fast as the arrow to move that distance in that timeframe.

  • That means Hino is in combat with a dude who's swinging a blade around at 150m/s or so, just so you're aware, and the guy absolutely cannot whatsoever by any reasonable means land his hits where he wants to; that would mean Origin, to actually land a meaningful hit on Hino, must provably move his blade well in excess of 150m/s to even begin having the discussion on if he can win or not

So yeah. Hino tanks hits, hits hella hard, Origin falls apart cuz his blade breaks on Hino's skeleton cross-sections of thin metal be damned in the wake of chonky boi

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Why Origin Loses

Reactions

• I don't buy into Wolf's argumentation for Origin's point-blank bullet speed, straight up. The series is very explicit on data and physics, and there's not a single bit of info on how fast the robot he vivisects is flicking bullets at him with her fingers at point-blank, so why would we assume they're.....bullet speeds? When she flicks them with her fingers? Obviously from across a warehouse he is able to react, but the point-blank stuff doesn't hold up imho.

• Further, the entirety of 'Da moves her hands fast woahmg" is almost an outright anti-feat; Origin sits there, watches her moving, does literally nothing, and then barely reacts to her fingers flicking a bullet at him point-blank all while allegedly having this top-tier processing and essentially zero-second processing time? So is he just gonna chill while Hino pulls up on this next point?

Physics

• Hino outlaw shatters the concept of physics as Origin would perceive them. Hino can kick the ground hard enough to shatter it for meters around himself and create a wall of air that flings his foe off the ground; no amount of Origin speed or bullet timing or anything at all prevent Hino ass-fucking him in mid-air when he has no leverage and no way to orient himself and survive since Hino canonically would just blast him apart mid-air. And as shown above, Origin is perfectly fine to sit there and RE-ACT than be PRO-ACTIVE; dude gets busted into the air and then killed

  • Oh, and Kami is defying physics there too even by swinging mid-air and manipulating his trajectory, it's literally a superpower in-verse

• I'd argue this is actually consistently how the match goes for Origin based on other physics-defying interactions: Hino does literally anything, it causes Origin to outright halt and try to assess how Hino accomplished it, Hino proceeds to kicks the ground and fuck Origin up in the follow-up rush

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/u/yTigerCleric you're up again, this is fun I've been waiting to debate against Origin for quite some time dude!