Action Hero Tier Round One+Brackets

[u/feminist-horsebane]

What are the rules?

• At the start of the round, inform a judge (reddit or discord) of which character you plan to use in the round.
• Write a maximum of one full comment to submit to the judges detailing why you feel your character beats your competitors in a fight.
• Wait for your response to be submitted alongside your competitors, read each others responses, and write a one comment rebuttal.
• At the end of a four day debate period, allow three days for judging. When results are in, the winner will advance to the next round, and be granted the opportunity to steal one character from their past opponents team to join their own. If you don't want anyone on your competitors team, you can save your steal for further rounds (I.E. two steals in R2, etc).
• Each round will be 1v1's, with the exception being a team match in finals of all compiled teammates.

Who is the Tier Setter?

Say hello to The Tierminator.

What else do I need to know?

• Single eliminations.
• Extensions will not be granted in the first two rounds minimum. There are no set time limits on responses as long as all are finished in a four day period.
• Speed is not equalized in any way for this tier.
• There is not a ranged rule. Opponents start with stipulated gear and abilities.
• You must be in tier for every arena, out of tiers will be on what arena is being fought in.

Where are we fighting?

We droppin in Rust boi's

Who am I fighting?

Bracket here baybee

How long do I have?

The rounds will end by Thursday 10/29/2020. Send me your first responses by Tuesday 10/27/2020 at midnight. Second responses posted at the end of the week. Allow a maximum of three days for judgements.

[u/feminist-horsebane]

Round 1

Predator finds his opponent first

Rust has a decent amount of cover in it and can move large distances while cloaked. He's not immediately going to be seen by his opponent unless he runs directly at them to fight. Likewise Ultimate Predator can lay out a 3d of his environment to see enemies. By starting out cloaked and having enhanced vision Ultimate Predator can lead her where he needs her to go as to perform a quick kill.

Predator tears Madame Masque apart from a range

Ultimate Predator can hit Madame Masque with a Plasma Caster round or hit Madame Masque with a ranged wrist blade that can gib humans. With neither major heat resistance or piercing resistance either of these should one-shot her.

Various Predators have also shown great accuracy, able to hit off limbs, retain accuracy from good distances, and the ability to lock on and track enemies. Leaving him much more likely to get hit off on her than she is to hit him.

Predator crushes in a melee

If Predator doesn't immediately kill Madame Masque from a range he can easily defeat her in melee combat. Predators are capable of slamming xenomorphs through stone pillars and busting through concrete. Attacks that just send Masque flying are capable of hurting her.

I see no reason as to why Ultimate Predator can't break her skull and rip her spine out or viciously stab her to death. Ultimate Predator could even use his stealth to simply pull Madam Masque up to his level and get her close enough for a grapple.

Conclusion

• Ultimate Predator finds Masque before she finds him.
• Ultimate Predator can use his stealth advantage to hit Masque with something that will one-shot her.
• Ultimate Predator is too accurate to miss Madam Masque
• If Predator gets into the melee range he has a massive advantage with physical stats and piercing.

[u/feminist-horsebane → u/feminist-horsebane]

Round 2

Rebuttals

Madame Masque can't see Predator

My opponent uses this feat along with scaling to Iron Man to say Madame Masque can see Ultimate Predator. This feat comes from the 17th episode of Season 1 where as Madame Masque only has feats up to Episode 11. She has no other feats that imply she can see cloaked foes so it doesn't apply here. Predator holds the stealth advantage and can engage Madame Masque whenever it most benefits him.

Madame Masque copying Predator Hounds won't work

• Madame Masque copying the Predator Hounds would be a detriment. Predator can see the whole world in a hud and pin point foes. Ultimate Predator will always know the where abouts of his two Predator Hounds. If Madame Masque tries to copy one she'll give her positioning away. Madame Masque won't know the Predator can see her in a hud. With her thinking this strategy will work leaves the Predator with a perfect chance to counter attack her while she tries and fails to sneak up on him.

If a fire fight ensues she'll lose

• Predator has the advantage in accuracy and range. Plasma casters are capable of firing accurately for hundreds of feet. As shown in the hud scan Ultimate Predator's wrist blades are accurate for similarly large distances. Meanwhile Masque's best accuracy feat is hitting a few stationary objects from a few feet away and failing to hit a moving target

• Predator's ranged weapons are much more immediately deadly. Predator has piercing weapons that hit hard enough to gib people and plasma casters can pop human heads and knock down large trees. As I've shown Madame Masque has no piercing resistance and she doesn't have heat resistance feats to imply surviving plasma that can melt through metal.

Ultimate Predator's combination of stealth, accuracy, and immediately fatal weaponry mean that in a fire fight he holds an immense advantage over Masque. Predator can easily start the engagement with a weapon that one-shots her before she even sees it coming where as the same can't be said for Masque.

If a melee ensues Madame Masque loses

• Madame Masque's tasers won't work. Weaker Predators than Ultimate Predator can no sell lightning bolts a taser knocking out normal humans in a second or two isn't enough.

• Ultimate Predator is stronger. Weaker Predators than him can break through stone pillars and bust through stone pillars where as Masque's best unamped strike just sends Iron Man flying a few feet.

• Predator can take multiple hits from Masque where as when she gets in close Ultimate Predator is just going to stab her a bunch of times. Having "best in the world training" doesn't beat out someone stronger than you coming at you with a knife. Especially if you try and use a taser against them first to give them more time to stab you.

Further Arguments

Predator hounds give Masque a hard time

My opponent seems to argue in depth that Masque will copy Predator's hounds which will force her to engage with them long enough to scan them. He says this is her "most likely strategy" so the fact that it hurts her even further than just not working is also good.

• Predator hounds have strength to bite through bleachers and the durability to shrug off grenades. They have the capacity to hurt Masque and will doubtfully be one-shotted by her small guns or melee attacks.

• Having to fight the two hounds simply leaves Masque open. Two combatants to leave Masque distracted in a melee range while Ultimate Predator just scopes her with his deadly ranged.

Ultimate Predator has weapons that keep Madame Masque from running

• Predator's harpoon can punch through bodies and pin them in place. If Madame Masque is hit by it Predator can just yank her over to him and bite her head off. Masque has no lifting feats and Ultimate Predator can easily throw normal Predators who dwarf humans. There is no reason he couldn't overpower her in a tug of war.

• Ultimate Predator can also just use it to throw her off balance and follow up with a previously mentioned ranged attack.

Madame Masque's scaling to Iron Man is sus

• Iron Man was explicitly holding back against Madame Masque. There's no reason to assume she scales to Iron Man when actually trying.

• Iron Man takes a little bit to turn metal red hot and fail to break through where as plasma casters quickly burn through metal. So even if Madame Masque did scale to Iron Man's repulsors she still doesn't have the durability to imply her taking something as hot as Ultimate Predator's plasma caster.

Iron Man scaling or not, Madame Masque doesn't have the durability to not get one-shot by Ultimate Predator's ranged weapons.

Conclusion

• Madame Masque will have to wait until Ultimate Predator is uncloaked as her only feat for sensing invisible opponents is stipped out. Predator also won't uncloak himself until in a good position to murder Madam Masque.

• My opponent's admitted strategy for Masque is to copy the Predator's Hounds and use her disguise to sneak attack Predator. This won't work as with Predator's abilities he'll always be able to keep an eye for which dogs are his, his dogs will attack Madame Masque while she tries to copy them, and he can ultimately use this to his advantage to keep Masque's guard down.

• Ultimate Predator's ranged weapons are more immediately fatal than Masque's and he has much better accuracy with them than Masque does with her guns.

• Ultimate Predator holds a physical advantage against Masque and his bladed weapon negates the skill advantage she might have against him.

Madame Masque has an uphill battle to climb to even get into a position that allows her to attack Ultimate Predator. She has to find him while cloaked which she has no options for besides just waiting for him to uncloack. The Predator hounds keep her distracted to allow an opening for Ultimate Predator to kill her with a ranged attack. Once they get into a melee her attacks are soaked up by Ultimate Predator who can just kill her in a few stabs.

[u/EmbraceAllDeath → u/feminist-horsebane]

Conclusion

• Madame Masque easily survives an initial counter with Hounds (electricity,melee, and range one shots, + better speed)
• Madame Masque easily copies a Hound
• Madame Masque fools Predator with disguise, as she has with other creature with HUDs with infrared vision like Iron Man.
• Madame Masque easily identifies Predator regardless of his cloaking ,as episode 17 shows that the mechanics of her mask that she stole from Howard Stark include seeing beings that are undetectable to even infrared vision
• Madame Masque easily instagibs Ultimate Predator with melee or electricity to Ultimate Predator's non-existent durability without scaling that doesn't really exist.
• In a fire fight, Madame Masque has options that harm her opponent, shows incredible accuracy (by not aiming at other people while shooting in a crowded area) whereas Ultimate Predator takes forever to aim and can't actually harm Madame Masque with his plasma caster
• any piercing option Predator is not likely to be used often, and is immaterial compared to Masque's speed and skill advantage that allows her to deal with normal speed goons with dangerous threatening weapons that are faster than Predator

OOT Request

Yeah it's Fj you all saw this coming. Predator as presented is OOT for Tierminator

In order for Tierminator to have a chance vs Ultimate Predator, he needs to be able to damage him. That seems rather unlikely in the context of the round

First, Fj presents Ulitmate Predator as having 2 Predator Hounds that are fairly strong:

Predator hounds have strength to bite through bleachers and the durability to shrug off grenades. They have the capacity to hurt Masque and will doubtfully be one-shotted by her small guns or melee attacks.

For reference, Masque's melee strikes were presented as breaking multiple crates or cratering metal drones. This is comparable to Tierminator's feat of punching through 2 layers of steel. Saying that the hounds are impervious to being one shot implies that Tierminator lacks the capacity to one shot the hounds. Additionally, the hounds have capacity to one shot Tierminator (because they can bite through steel), which implies that the hounds alone are OOT for Tierminator because Tierminator "Will not dodge most attacks". Tierminator's guns are irrelevant because the hides of the Hounds are bulletproof, and shooting up the insides when Tierminator is not aware of that strategy and he's dealing with 2 Hounds that can trivially bite/swallow the gun.

 

The above issues are compounded by Ultimate Predator abilities in the match. FJ argues that that:

" Having to fight the two hounds simply leaves Masque open. Two combatants to leave Masque distracted in a melee range while Ultimate Predator just scopes her with his deadly ranged."

" Predator can see the whole world in a hud and pin point foes. Ultimate Predator will always know the where abouts of his two Predator Hounds"

In the context of the TS match, what this means is that Predator is aware of Tierminator's position in Rust via HUD, but Tierminator needs to catch a glimpse of Predator to attack him plus deal with 2 combatants that are probably OOT on their own. This implies that Predator can always get a first shot against Tierminator, and that Tierminator will be preoccupied to deal with being shot, regardless of how much FJ tries to downplay his hounds in the OOT defense. Predator's primary weapon, the Plasma gun, instantly goops Tierminator with heat that can feel a tree or melt metal when Tierminator at best can can only deal with flaming gasoline. Fj is going to say gasoline > plasma casters but that falls flat because gasoline burning is mainly composed of red flames which implies temperatures far below what is needed to melt Tierminator's metal body but something that melts metal should functionally melt tierminator because he's made of metal. FJ highly emphasized Predator's accuracy vs moving targets so it's not like Tierminator has any substantial advantage in a fire fight especially when he's dealing with 2 hounds.

 

Tierminator also has nothing that he can really do in a fire fight. Ultimate Predator can easily tank his guns (not to mentioned his armored exoskeleton) so Tierminator has to deal with the hounds and Tierminator's plasma caster and get to close to Predator to get into a melee fight. And even with that, Predator is still OOT. Tierminator has to brace himself vs being rammed into concrete, and Ultimate Predator is argued to scale above Predators that can bust more concrete than what Tierminator was rammed into in a punch, while on the defensive side Predator can easily protect himself with a wristblade that can pierce through wood which is beyond the capabilities of a standard knife that Tierminator can take (don't say bullet resistance counts as piercing defense because the shearing action of blades is distinct from bullets which deteriorate the material behind impact in order to puncture material). Predator's scaling also would make him capable of not being damaged significantly from being pushed through elevator doors which gives him resistance to Tierminator's metal layer piercing strikes. It's also untenable whether Tierminator knows that he needs to engage melee, as he may think he missed or think that he has to damage Tierminator over time. This is especially true when his in character behavior is to use melee as a last resort.

 

Basically, Tierminator's only viable win con is meleeing Predator and there are multiple obstacles that make that win con extremely untenable.

---

/u/fj668 /u/feminist-horsebane

[u/fj668 → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

OOT Defense

Hounds are quickly dispatched by Tierminator

• Predator hounds can't damage Tierminator with their bites. Their best feat for piercing is biting through some wood. Tierminator soaks up hand gun and MP5 rounds like they're nothing.

• Tierminator tosses the Predator Hounds around like rag dolls. Predator hounds' best feat for strength is breaking through some chainlink fence. Tierminator can tear through an inch of steel with one punch and toss it to the side and send someone flying hard enough to break concrete with a weapon. They may be durable but in a melee they can't hold up to Tierminator.

• Tierminator just shoots them. A point blank handgun shot can pierce through Predator Hounds. Predator has a shotgun, assault rifle, and hand gun on him at all times. Once they get close enough to him he's just going to shoot them in the head and kill them. Even if it doesn't kill them, it'll lobotomize them and turn them friendly.

Ultimately the Predator Hounds would only be a momentary distraction for Tierminator before he shoots them in the head or beats them into submission. They don't even have the strength to effect Tierminator's aim and they can't damage him in any reasonable way.

Plasma caster can't one-shot Tierminator

• Earlier versions of Terminator models were made of titanium which has a 500 degree hotter melting point than steel. And considering earlier models were made out of titanium Terminator is fine being submerged in what should be molten titanium long enough for it to cool around him. Talked to Fem about this in PMs, if the feat isn't okay then just ignore it. Terminator is either made of titanium, which Ultimate Predator can't melt, or it's made of a material that even molten titanium can't destroy.

• Tierminator can just dodge it. Ultimate Predator isn't fast and he can dodge plasma caster rounds. Even if Tierminator doesn't dodge "most" attacks Ultimate Predator's plasma caster isn't "most" attacks. It's a weapon with a noticeable charge up that comes from a literal alien. Not dodging a weapon he knows absolutely nothing about would be plain stupid on his end.

Ultimate Predator's plasma caster would slow Terminator down at best and be completely ineffective at worst.

Tierminator beats Ultimate Predator in a fire fight

• My opponent thinks guns are of no help against Ultimate Predator which is simply untrue. Getting shot in the head with a pistol once pierces and severely disorientates Ultimate Predator enough to where a single person can knock him over. Ultimate Predator is killed by getting shot in the head with pistol bullets. As mentioned in the earlier section the Predator's hounds are still severely damaged by headshots despite shrugging off grenades. Ultimate Predator has even shown that while it doesn't penetrate, high caliber rounds to the body still irritate him enough that he's willing to back off.

• Even with a heavily inaccurate weapon like a mini-gun Tierminator can still spray a parking lot full of cops and purposefully not hit a single person. Terminator has an M-16, .45 Auto-Pistol, and 1887 Shotgun. The only weapon that Tierminator couldn't one-shot Ultimate Predator with a head-shot is the pistol which would still leave him reeling for several seconds. The M-16 and Shotgun would both kill him immediately.

• Tierminator is MASSIVELY quicker on the draw than Ultimate Predator. Tierminator's reactions are 150 MS and his hand speed is around twice as fast as a professional boxer. Plasma Casters and his other ranged weapon have shown very, very, very, very, very often that they need time to lock on and fire. Terminator can just draw his weapon and shoot Ultimate Predator in the head while he's aiming.

If Ultimate Predator tries to fire fight Tierminator he'll lose more often than not. Headshots from low caliber weapons kill Ultimate Predator, Terminator is A LOT faster at the draw than Ultimate Predator, and he has the speed to hit him before he's hit. Even if Ultimate Predator's plasma caster one-shots, Terminator is much more well equipped to kill with one hit.

Ultimate Predator and Terminator are about even in melee

My opponent pretty much described this in their OOT request though they got some things wrong.

• Terminator is fine being rammed through concrete. Predators need to put in effort to break comparable amounts of concrete. My opponent didn't mention that Terminator didn't put his hands up until he got rammed through two walls and wasn't noticeably damaged. Terminator's durability vs Predator's strength isn't enough that Ultimate Predator would hold a noticeable advantage.

• Predators are damaged by being hit through elevator walls which are generally between 1-3/4ths of an inch thick. Tierminator punches through an inch of steel with each punch and hits someone hard enough that their flying body breaks concrete. Terminator holds the advantage in striking strength vs Ultimate Predator's durability.

• I'm gonna use piercing scaling. Tierminator no sells pistol and MP5 fire and is only staggered by Shotgun fire. Ultimate Predator's best feat for piercing is against wood like my opponent says. There's no reason to believe they'd pierce through metal like Tierminator.

In short

Predator's Hounds provide a momentary distraction at best before they're shot, Ultimate Predator's plasma caster can't one-shot Terminator, even if they did Terminator would shoot Ultimate Predator in the head before he fired, and Ultimate Predator vs Tierminator in a melee is an advantage for Tierminator.

Not doing conclusions so y'know, just go ahead with the judging.

/u/feminist-horsebane