Discussion
Which Fire royal has the most blood on their hands?
Led by the genocidal royal family, the Fire Nation engaged in a genocidal war of conquest for 100 years. My question is which member of it do you think has the most blood on their hands for it? Ursa, Lu Ten, Ilah, Zuko, and Azula were all members, but I think it's safe to say they do have the most blood on their hands. That leaves us with four candidates:
Sozin: Firelord for the first 20 years of the war. Carried out the genocide of the Air Nomads and the initial invasion Earth Kingdom, along with raids on the Northern Water Tribe.
Azulon: Firelord for 75 years during the war, and possibly involved even before that. Likely expanded the war in the Earth Kingdom and carried out the genocide of the Southern Water Tribe.
Iroh: never Firelord, but Crown Prince and the Fire Nation's most prominent general for decades. Carried out campaigns in the Earth Kingdom and seen as the pride of the Fire Nation in his time as general.
Ozai: Firelord for the last five or six years of the war. Continued the policies of his predecessors.
Which of these men do you think was responsible for the most bloodshed and destruction?
More like ~200 years. The only air benders after aang died were tenzen and his children (obviously excluding the avatar) until well into legends of korra.
Sozin started it and ran the war for 20 years, but Azulon continued it for the next 75. I am understand what you are saying and it makes sense, but I don't think Sozin being worse than Azulon is completely evident.
Sure Azulon could have stopped the war, but Sozin started a war for no reason and committed genocide. He also almost obliterated the Southern Water Tribe to kill the avatar, committing cultural genocide. He also let his best friend die so he could start the war, which is pretty damn cold.
Azulon, Iroh, and Lu Ten just kept the momentum going. Ozai picked up his grandfather's crazy blood lust, but he also didn't commit genocide, so at best he's in second place.
I mean that scorched earth were eventually gonna be inhabited just a couple of miles ahead if he had not been interrupted, so he for sure was aiming for first place.
But wasn't that about 60 years prior to the start of the show, according to Hama? I think that falls under Azulon.
The Air Nomad Genocide was 100 years prior to the start of the show and one of the last things Sozin did in his attempt to find Aang. He was already pretty old at that point — no way he survived another 40 years before trying to take out the Southern Water Tribe.
Like OP mentioned in the post, Azulon carried out the genocide of the Southern Water Tribe.
The wiki says:
Prior to 40 AG, Fire Lord Azulon ordered his navy to annihilate the tribe's military strength as part of a genocidal campaign.
Even though the South was virtually defeated, the raids continued by the Southern Raiders, who attacked the minor tribe of Chieftain Hakoda in 94 AG.
By 99 AG, the Southern Water Tribe was on the brink of extinction, with its culture shattered, its main city largely abandoned, and its unique waterbending style effectively erased.
Azulon was coronated in 20 AG and killed in 95 AG, so he was Fire Lord for 75% of the war, and was responsible for the southern genocide all the way through to the death of Katara's mother.
Yeah, and he started the whole thing, so you arguably could lay Azulon's victims at his feet, too. The sheer scale of Azulon's work is pretty impressive, though. He might have had more victims if you just tally the number of deaths during their reigns.
Azulon's victims is on azulon. yes Sozin started the war but azulon chose to continue it for years. I know the southern water tribe members were wiped out under azulon's rule but idk if thats more
The air nomads had the smallest population of the four nations, but the Southern tribe was only half of the Water nation, so /shrug it's hard to compare. I just figure Azulon probably had a larger death toll because he led the war for nearly 4x as long as Sozin.
A good second place. And it was Aang that stopped Ozai genociding the Earth Kingdom. Not that I think he would thank Aang for that. "Thank you for stopping me from committing one of the worst war crimes after the genocie of the Air Nomads."
There were no (save for Aang) Air Nomads left after Sozin's genocide, and he wiped out several temples' worth of humans.
Azulon continued the war but just took the Southern water benders prisoner*. The non-benders and civilians were left alive instead of intentionally killed, which isn't as bloody or vicious as a full genocide.
*One could argue that he did to Hama and the rest of the water benders was worse than death (and I agree), but I thought we were talking about total numbers killed and sheer violence: Azulon leaving much of the South alive unlike his father shows at least some chill.
I think they're very close for first/second place. the main difference is that Sozin started this war. every policy made because of it stems from him and his descisions.
I really really disagree that that was a genocide. The Fire Nation repeatedly attacked them and captured or killed all of their Waterbenders, but there is no evidence that I've seen that they tried to kill all the Southerners
Not defending an attack on an entire class of people, but technically speaking they just rounded up all the waterbenders. It could even be argued that from the fire nation's (warped) point of view the benders of the other nations were combatants.
No, there are only two known surviving waterbenders from the south. Hama (who escaped) and Katara (whose mother was killed in her place). It's pretty common for genocides to start with a people being rounded up before executions begin.
Ozai ironically probably has the lowest body count. Aang caught him mid Operation Rolling Thunder, which if successful could have pushed his kill count into the hundreds of millions. But in reality, most of the major battles under his reign were quick and decisive, like Bumi surrendering Omashu without much of a fight, and Azula’s slick infiltration of Ba Sing Se.
Sozin’s numbers probably aren’t sky high either. He is responsible for genocide, which is obviously horrific, but there weren’t that many Air Nomads to begin with. His Earth Kingdom invasion was not a blitzkrieg, it was a slow crawl that took ninety years just to reach Ba Sing Se.
Iroh technically ruled as interim Fire Lord for Zuko during The Search, but that was only for a couple weeks, and by then the Fire Nation had basically abandoned imperialism altogether.
Azulon, though, is the clear “winner.” He oversaw the Southern raids, let groups like the Rough Rhinos run around torching villages and committing war crimes under imperial sanction, and ruled during the siege of Ba Sing Se. He is partially responsible for why half the ATLA cast are orphans or widows. Since Sozin was already old when the war began, Azulon effectively co-ruled during much of that period, which means he carried the bulk of the Fire Nation’s blood-soaked empire on his watch.
Just add the initiative for Killing zuko in punishement for ozai demand to take the crown, it's strap up crual for his grandson and he's son. Ozai would ban everyone but him, just kill anyone anoye him.
Want to Kill the 2 left other nation don't make him nicer
As others have mentioned, Sozin started it, but he was already way old by the time he started. Presumably Azulon picked up most of the slack as the Crown Prince then. Yes, the idea was Sozin's, but Azulon grew up in the peace guarded by Roku while he was still alive. An alternative world view to what Sozin was bombarding him with was probably available. He chose not to see it and continued his father's brutal genocides.
Do we know how long the Air Nomad genocide lasted? Because if it was decades, then I don't see Sozin lasting and Azulon probably finished it. If it was quick, then they probably didn't have the vast numbers to holdout long enough, and thus Azulon's almost a century's campaign would definitely have more blood via the prolonged war. Not even accounting for the Water Tribes, the Earth Kingdom is vast and likely more populous than the other nations. The series probably started with 2nd/3rd generation EK soldiers.
Edit: additional info I just dug up, so Sozin died 20 years after starting the war. And apparently had Azulon 12 years after Roku died (impressive for an old man until you realise that Azulon was also his first born). Still, Azulon reigned over the atrocities for a lot longer.
Wait, Sozin conceived Azulon a decade after already looking like this?!...
Hats off the old man! I'm assuming with a concubine/young 2nd wife? Because men are virile up to the end, but women typically do not have that longevity.
But also, Azulon was his first born, so... weak swimmers, huh?
Yep, there's even an official image of a teen Azulon with a relatively young Sozin. Bryke simply suck at dates, that's also the reason Koyshi lived +200 years.
I think the avatar cycle conditionated the timeline and made things a little messy, some characters had to match and they were clearly not made to do so.
Sozin was originally supposed to be an ambitious young upstart. This was proven when the show explicitly stated that Azulon ruled for 23 years in Zuko Alone, meaning Sozin ran the show for 70+ years.
They wanted Sozin and Roku to be buddies so they trashed the timeline.
There are women in avatar that have had kids at like 80 something so I think women stay fertile a lot longer there
For example Ursa is the daughter of Rokus daughter and was born in 63 AG so even if Rokus daughter was born the year he died she would still have to be at least 75 when she had Ursa
They don't stay fertile longer, they just massively screwed the timeline of the Fire Nation Royal Family.
It works with Sozin-Azulon-Ozai-Zuko because it's a male line and it's physically possible for a male to conceive at a very advanced age (even though it's very questionable as to why a reigning monarch like Sozin would take over 80 years to produce an heir).
The timeline is screwed at the other end however. Even if we assume that Roku and Ta Min had Rina when they were both 50, Rina would still have to have been 90+ years old when Ursa was born, which doesn't work out.
Sozin had Azulon at 100 because the creators can’t maintain a consistent lore. They will overrule a previously established rule if they come up with a “cool enough” idea or they need to virtue signal.
Sozin may have killed the air nomads, but they were likely by far the least populous nation of the four. I'd estimate the southern air temple could support maybe a thousand people max. Multiply this population by four to get 4000 people. Let's assume that since only children and the elderly live at air temples full time while the adults heard sky bison, then that means there was a total pre-genocide population of 13,333.
I would not be surprised if over ten times that many lives were lost in the siege of ba sing se alone. The IRL hundred year war between Britain and France had an estimated 3 million fatalities. The air nomad genocide would be a drop in the bucket either way.
The Air Nomads are more than just the monks and nuns living in the Air Temples. To be a nomad means to be constantly moving so other than those who settled in the temples, I’m guessing there were more groups traveling the world.
Based on the number of people killed, you could make the case for Sozin or Azulon. We don't know enough to make a definitive statement on that. But since Sozin started the war and effectively genocided an entire nation, he undoubtedly has the most "blood on his hands." The actions of Azulon and Ozai were partially his doing.
Sozin. He literally wiped out an entire race just to kill the avatar and the avatar wasn't even there. Azulon seemed like a neutral and basically inherited his father's war.
Ozai, if Aang haven't showed up, Ozai would have topped Sozin.
Sozin pushed a nation of people to near extinction and started the war. Yes, Azulon continued it but who’s to say he would have started the war himself? Sozin took the first step, if you take that into account he’s then indirectly responsible for everything each Fire Lord does after him.
Sozin but people dont talk about azulon enough, the war started for sozin late into his life but azulon reigned for a majority of the war. Not to mention he created the fire nation colonies which involved a lot of ethnic cleansing and he almost ended the war when iroh broke the outer wall of ba sing se.
Sozin by proxy of his armies doing actual genocide
Iroh with his own hands being a general/soldier. Sozin most likely didn’t fight on the frontlines much as he would have needed to secure the throne, keep his kids in check if they wanted to usurp him or if he only had Azulon as his heir ensure he was brought up as fanatical so his dream of world domination wouldn’t end with a more balanced and less blood thirsty ruler. Iroh definitely killed people personally and was on the battlefield himself
Ozai might have the least considering he spent seemingly all his time in court plotting for his eventual rule and with the crown prince gone you’d need to have at least one potential heir safe. His attack in the finale destroying the earth kingdom could have killed some animals but most likely the area was mostly deserted due to the impending fire making them run away
Azulon expanded the war beyond Sozins colonies, and was Fire Lord for the majority of the war. Yes, the war started because of Sozin but Azulon could have decried him mad and chosen to end it. He didnt, instead spreading imperialism across all 4 nations.
Sozin stomps. The dude literally wiped out a culture from existence for 100 years. They were only starting to rebuild in Korra. He also started the tradition of Dragon hunting, which drove tjem to near extinction.
Azulon is also very bad. He was perpetuating the war for decades, I believe. And was responsible for most of the atrocities in the Earth Kingdoms, the purge of the South, and indirectly the murder of Kya.
For Iroh, he’s was the top general who almost conquered Ba Sing Se, so he was pretty bad. He didn’t stop until he lost Lu Ten.
Ozai seems like the one with the least blood. He was trying to genocide, but was stopped by Aang. Other than that, he spends most of his life as a bitch hiding behind palace walls scheming.
Directly? Probably Iroh, sadly. The other firelords look like they led from behind.
Azulon indirectly oversaw most of the war, but Sozin probably oversaw some of the bloodiest parts with the conquest of the Earth Kingdom colonies and the air nomad genocide.
Ozai has the most animal blood on his hands; the massive wildfire he caused in the finale from the airship before Aang attacked definitely killed the most animals directly.
Sozin. He is not only responsible for killing an entire nation’s worth of people but likely that amount ten times over during the 100 year war which is entirely his fault.
Sozin. He caused the genocide of the Air Nomads, conquered some Earth kingdom civilizations while he was the firelord and he started the war. So even those who were killed by the succeeding firelords are indirectly killed by him too.
Sozin I feel was the spearhead that did the most damage immediately and set the standard that was continued. He was more into genocide and purging threats.
Auzulon ruled over most of the war, but I feel his rule was more subjugation and conquering. Him and his intended successor Iroh were about building an empire. You can't rule corpses. You can even see this in their policies. Southern water tribe were captured and kept prisoner for years, but were not killed.
Ozai had a very short rule, but I feel the war escalated under his short rule. He wouldn't tolerate any disobedience or restance, not even from his son. Southern Raiders stopped taking water bender prisoners, and started just purging them.
So I would say Sozin as he went scorched earth on more than just the air nomads. Auzulon had the most time, but his war method was more slow, and methodical. Ozai rain was short, but he tried to one up Sozin.
A lot of people are saying Sozin, but honestly if we're going on reign body count it's Azulon easily. The siege of Ba Sing Se probably starved more people than the Air Nomad genocide plus a whopping 75 years of war will lead to lots of casualties
Sozin started the war, but he was fairly old when he did; Azulon was an active commander (likely he was the one actively commanding his father's forces) and seems to be pretty ruthless, and on top of that he ruled for the longest portion of it - it's likely most gains made and major battles fought either occured under his direct command or when he was fire lord.
Since we don't know how long Sozin or Azulan ruled for we don't know who had more deaths. But simply die toothed Air Nomads it is likely that Sonzin had the most spiritual blood on his hands.
If you ask me, I’d say both Sozin and Azulon are tied equally. Sozin because he initiated the war, along with the extermination of the Air Nomads, and Azulon because he continued his father’s legacy for 75 years, and initiated the genocide of the Southern Water Tribe.
Sozin. Azulon likely had a higher body count due to the amount of time he was overseeing the war and depending on what the actual population of air nomads was.
Neither Ozai or Iroh are really in the running, I don't think. If operation Earth Kingdom Genocide had succeeded, then we could probably hand the win or at least second place to Ozai.
Sozin; he oversaw the wiping out of every single Air Nomad other than Aang, and Aang only survived through luck. The other 100 Years of war, death, genocide, slavery and torture are on him as well; he set that ball rolling and pushed to change the Fire Nation into a nationalistic, hateful nation intent on killing its way across the world and rewarding brutality, spite and cruelty. While it can be debated if he ever washes the blood off his hands, Iroh did reverse course, helped end the occupation of Ba Sing Se and kept Zuko from going evil. He definitely comes last place out of these killers for most blood on hands. Azulon and Ozai, whether directly or from giving bad orders that killed a lot of people, including support for tactics that led to feeding Fire Nation soldiers into an almost literal meat grinder of a battle are definite contenders for 2nd and 3rd place after Sozin.
This does not expunge the crimes of Iroh, but he is really not in the same league as the rest. Sozin, Azulon and Ozai are definitely far worse than him. Had he not had his change of heart? Had he not stepped back from the abyss and jumped in? Had he carried on as a general? Yeah, definitely he would be in the running compared to the others. But he did step back, and while he may never wash all the blood off his hands, he cannot hold a candle to starting 100 Years of darkness and slaughter, perpetrating mass murder of pacifists and so on. Out of the four he is definitely 4th place by a good margin. And Sozin, for starting things off, and setting events in motion, and genociding the Air Nomads and starting the genocide of the Southern Water Tribe? Is definitely No 1, not even close. Azulon and Ozai might never have reached the heights they do if not for Sozin setting events in motion and setting the Fire Nation on the path to genocidal nationalism.
Zoryu, he is the one who began the cycle of facism in the name of "Unity". If not for his devious psychopathic tendencies, the fire nation royals might never have devolved into genocidal maniacs, Cheijin seemed arrogant and vain but less of a psycho and would have upheld clan culture clash and the clans kept each other in check with waxing/waning power.
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u/thatonemoze 3d ago
Sozin by far, he wiped out an entire aspect of balance of the avatar world for 100 years