r/UnitedFootballLeague • u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades • Mar 30 '25
Discussion It's clear the UFL doesn't care about attendance.
We need to stop worrying about attendance as much. This week has shown that the league has done little to improve the teams with lower attendance. They did a minor marketing push in Memphis for a month, and it clearly didn't work. The league only has one local radio deal, ironically with the Memphis Showboats.
The other teams with higher attendance have gotten even less marketing. They are hoping that fans and the local media provide the marketing for them by word of mouth advertising.
Instead, the UFL has heavily invested into their TV product. The advertising has almost exclusively been towards their name and the TV networks their on. They implemented more technology like body cameras and micing up more players and coaches than ever before.
Fox and ESPN are investing more into the UFL with social media posts and higher level productions than last year.
If the TV ratings start to go down, then that's when we should worry about the success of this league.
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u/Evening_Ad4108 The Iowa State Battlehawks Mar 30 '25
The league will make an attendance push when they are confident ratings will stay
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u/Heavy_Advice999 Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
That's not how it works. If nobody shows up to the games, there won't be a league.
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u/Evening_Ad4108 The Iowa State Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
It is exactly how it works lmao. TV viewership is much more valuable than attendance from a financial perspective
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u/RiderNo51 Mar 31 '25
Fox has proven this going back to the USFL, when almost no one was showing up to games.
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u/JournalofFailure St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
Yeah, but sparse crowds turn off viewers even if the game itself is good.
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u/Hey_Its_Roomie Pittsburgh Maulers Mar 31 '25
One of the primary owners of the league is a network broadcasting company. How do you suppose they are aiming to make the league profitable?
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u/CapeMOGuy St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
All the league has to do is not exceed their spending budget and deliver the ratings needed. As a stand alone, UFL profitability is of no consequence.
Should they want to sell franchises or the league itself, we'll then it really matters
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u/Scottwood88 Mar 30 '25
I thought the production quality of the game as a football product was much better in the DC game than in the Michigan game. The Michigan game seemed too jumpy and almost too many interviews with players and coaches and too much Dean Blandino. There wasn’t enough replays of the plays that had just happened and stats. That might have just been a difference of announcing crews, though. Either way, I liked the DC game a lot more as a TV product.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
I agree. I felt like I was overstimulated by the interviews and players' coaches' sounds, bettling lines, and everything else they did to try and retain interest.
Last year, I felt like ESPN had a better production than Fox, but I feel way more like the opposite this year. Fox had the right amount of interviews/sounds/cameras for me.
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u/RedBait95 Apr 01 '25
I watched a little bit of the season opener; i really don't see the value in the sideline interviews, they just seem distracting to the actual players and coaches (which iirc was a criticism with the original XFL in 2001). The actual football seems good for an off season league tho.
I appreciate the attempt at transparency but as a very casual football fan the small bite sized quotes don't do much for me. I also thought the gambling numbers before the start came off as really tacky.
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u/RumsfeldIsntDead Mar 30 '25
I wish they'd find smaller stadiums. I'd much rather see games in a 15,000 stadium that's 2/3 full than a 65,000 stadium that's 1/6 full.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
It's the battle of finding a perfect stadium that gets you good dates that align with TV, a good size for now and possibly for the future, good location for fans, and good rent. This is likely the best the UFL can get.
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u/lochstab St Louis Battlehawks Mar 30 '25
Absolutely. There are so many factors involved in choosing a venue, and I would have to guess that "appropriately sized seating capacity" is really low on that list.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
I don't think they league wants to play in stadiums that have a lower status than the ones they play in. Imagine how illegitimate the league will feel if they played at high school stadiums?
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u/PtixFan St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
All accurate. In some of these markets like Memphis, St. Louis or Birmingham you only have one or two realistic options. Vegas tried playing in a baseball stadium and that was terrible. They still outdrew what Memphis has done but it looked awful on TV.
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u/brantman19 Birmingham Stallions Mar 31 '25
Yeah. I did the research last year and it was apparent that very few teams had options.
The ideal stadium would have 20k-35k seats and most stadiums in the US are either 12.5k or less or 45k and up. Unfortunately, some of the cities that the UFL is in only have a few 5k seat options and then the option the teams are playing in now. If the UFL could find ways to play in some school district or small college stadiums, they could fill about 80% of the seating in those for a few years and build up the fanbase but I don't think they want to go that route and like we seem to be noticing, they don't care about in person attendance.
The only teams that realistically have some sort of option is Michigan, Arlington (though spread through the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex), and San Antonio.1
u/PtixFan St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
If they keep playing in larger venues, then they should make the whole thing general admission and fill up sections at a time. Cutting to full sections looks better than fans sprinkled around.
They should also do what D-1 does and have a marching band (could be a different high school band every week) and have them sit in one endzone. The bigger high schools have bands of 200+. That'd make the endzones look better.
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u/brantman19 Birmingham Stallions Mar 31 '25
they should make the whole thing general admission and fill up sections at a time
They were doing this in some stadiums. They opened up about 5 sections but they can't easily stop people from going elsewhere as its mostly open access.
It should all be general admission in my opinion with directions for the best "viewing areas" which are 50 yard line and later the endzones. I understand some stadiums fill up better than others but until stadiums are packed up to 80% capacity, seats should be $10/each and I would definitely be letting those marching bands do the halftime performances and fill in the endzone. I'm sure the band instructors would love to have a full field with a crowd to try out new movements and help their kids get more playing time. Plus the atmosphere would be better as it would be a mix of high school/college and pro.
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u/Gol_D_Rocks DC Defenders Mar 30 '25
I just can’t comprehend how we’ve seen spring league after spring league go bust over lack of money but the one league that is actually trying to run itself sustainably is constantly killed for it
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u/TwizzlersSourz Birmingham Stallions Mar 31 '25
Spring football fanatics constantly overrate things. They overrate players, believe inflated attendance claims (see the AAF), and overrate how much cities and fans should care about minor league football, among other things.
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u/Marctheshark_ San Antonio Brahmas Mar 31 '25
believe inflated attendance claims (see the AAF)
Don't try to tell me what I saw with my own eyes in the Alamodome wasn't real now
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Mar 30 '25
[deleted]
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u/FateDaA Mar 31 '25
This right here lol
It's a TV Product first with some fan seating with a potential for growth
The money doesn't come from tickets but from TV veiws
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u/Commercial-Talk-3558 Mar 31 '25
If this is all about TV, the networks should ‘fill’ the stand with AI generated fans (kinda like they did for Ted Lasso) and at least make it look a ‘real’ game.
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u/QCTID Mar 30 '25
My opinion is that the goals should be 10k but anything ~5k (with positive momentum) should be considered successful for now. I know it’s football so we all feel it should sell 20k per but it will honestly take time to build to that in most markets. The league should focus on ironing out the operational kinks and let attendance be an afterthought for now. That’s just my opinion though.
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u/cartocaster18 DC Defenders Mar 30 '25
I'm keeping tab on how many UFL games it takes to reach the attendance of one fucking Savannah Bananas game in Raymond James stadium.
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u/Argolock Pittsburgh Maulers Mar 30 '25
The Bananas are a national brand that has marketed itself very well for a while now.
Its also an entertaining show for people who don't like baseball.
The UFL is more football for people who like football, but thats it.
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u/FootbaIIJunkie Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
and even then, you have people who say the like football but refuse to watch because it’s not the NFL
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u/Goldie46 Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
I'm here because im a staunch MAC guy and its like watching a pro version of that
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u/TwizzlersSourz Birmingham Stallions Mar 31 '25
I disagree. MACtion tends to be way higher scoring!
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u/composer_7 Mar 30 '25
Not a fair comparison considering most MLB teams don't get the attendance of an average Bananas game either
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Mar 30 '25
The Bananas have already broke that record. They’re playing later this month at Clemson’s football stadium and it sold out almost instantly.
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u/composer_7 Mar 30 '25
Not a fair comparison considering most MLB teams don't get the attendance of an average Bananas game either
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u/ChillastPowerful Mar 31 '25
Maybe UFL should think about choreographed dances on offense and defense before the snap.
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u/paultheschmoop Mar 30 '25
Well there hasn’t been a single UFL game that has had half as good a product as a Bananas game so
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u/cartocaster18 DC Defenders Mar 30 '25
I mean combined total. Like, it will probably take 6-7 games until the total 2025 attendance is equal to that one Bananas game.
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u/DoctorFenix St Louis Battlehawks Mar 30 '25
Ummm… the Battlehawks exist.
And their first home game is next weekend.
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u/Princess_NikHOLE Mar 31 '25
You're half - right. But this is why I can't ignore attendance.
ENDLESSS comments about how nobodys there from people I've introduced the UFL too. It massively hurts somebodys willingness to invest into something when it appears like its hanging on by a thread,
I'm grateful the league has done a lot right, but this can't be ignored. Its a problem.
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u/jagsfan246810 Mar 30 '25
Then why do league officials constantly talk about it. There's tons of articles and talk from Daryl Johnston about Memphis in particular and how they have to improve attendance
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u/Pineapple-Journey Mar 30 '25
Because they do care and they need to care. A league like this needs a good gate revenue. A good attendance also makes more people watch on TV and when people are watching on TV it makes the league look a lot more professional.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
I don't think they UFL necessarily wants to say that they dont want fans in the stands. Any league wants to have fans in the stands. It would be bad for a league to basically say "Hey we don't care if you come to our games.". Also, stadiums aren't free, so they need to basically be solvent. Otherwise, they can play in Arlington or like the USFL did in Birmingham.
Action speaks louder than words, though, and if they really cared, they would've done more than they did.
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u/Small-Raccoon-908 Mar 31 '25
Just keep telling people about. I got my friends invested in it now and they are looking forward to the bham home game. Word of mouth is gonna go a long way atm
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u/SockDem DC Defenders Mar 31 '25
DC had a radio station with a booth at the game, so we clearly have one.
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u/MMM-MMM-Goodxxxx San Antonio Brahmas Mar 30 '25
If TV ratings are good and sponsorships pick up the league will still be ok.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
Yeah, it also seems like the UFL has more sponsors this year. They also aren't obnoxious like the Army sponsorship.
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u/DOCTOROFDUNK Mar 31 '25
It does seem like they are running a more diversified mix of commercials on the games instead of just a few companies with the same old commercials. That is not as boring.
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u/FootbaIIJunkie Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
I watch the play on the field, not the crowd in the stands. Obviously I want people to attend the games but obsessing over it doesn’t change anything.
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u/Unhappy_Classroom370 Mar 31 '25
The Capitals and Nationals both had home games that day and the Orioles were on TV at that day also, for the defenders to pull in 13K is pretty impressive if you ask me
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u/Nati2de Mar 31 '25
I was in the stadium, there was nowhere close to 13k physically there. Maybe 6k. I recognize that the 13k is tickets sold/distributed. As you mentioned, Nats and Caps had games nearby (and maybe some people were watching the Elite 8) which I suspect led to many no shows.
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u/Zapfit Mar 31 '25
I was near the beer snake and it was the smallest crowd I've ever seen for a DC game. I think 7000-7500 may have come through the gates, but that's about it
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u/Fun-Cauliflower-1724 Mar 30 '25
It’s hard to watch the TV product when there is no stadium atmosphere to speak of
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u/New-Negotiation-4176 Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
Watching the games on TV is an entirely different experience from both NFL games and attending in person. As much as I hate seeing empty stadiums, the UFL offers a better fan experience on TV. There’s so much that stands out for the UFL all access for fans from the mic’d up coaches and players that give viewers behind-the-scenes access, to the drone camera angles.i love listening to Dean Blandino review and his explanation of why certain penalties are reversed and find it fascinating. A lot of that is probably lost to fans in the stadium. They learn the result but may not necessarily hear the actual discussion.
But it does bother me that there is so little corporate support from the league to properly promote the games.
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u/JournalofFailure St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
Problem is, no matter how good the broadpast production quality and even the caliber of play on the field, these sparse crowds look awful on television.
I’m sure there’s a bunch of reasons why this can’t happen and maybe when I’ve sobered up I’ll realize why it’s a bad idea, but I wonder if it would make sense to make game tickets super cheap (like, $5 a pop) or, heck, even drop free tickets over the city from helicopters.
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u/Heavy_Advice999 Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
Fox and ESPN are investing more into the UFL with social media posts and higher level productions than last year.
Well, that's just spiffy, but literally every professional (and major college) sports league already does that. And do you know what every big-time sports league also has? Butts in the seats. No sports league, of any description, has ever survived without butts in the seats...and they never will.
"But that's OK!" you might be saying. "We have TV money! Lots and lots of nice, fresh TV money!" Yeah, but it's depressing to tune into a UFL game and see only a handful of people in the stadium -- it feels like the pandemic is back. A lot of folks will see that and quickly decide to watch one of the dozen or so other televised sporting events instead.
The opening week of the season and they draw an average of 8,466? (Probably more like 5,000?) Hell, the UFL would kill for the AAF's attendance numbers -- about 15K -- and the AAF collapsed into a heap after two months.
The UFL absolutely has to make getting butts in the seats a priority -- if it's not already too late, that is. I mean, what were the individual teams' ticket departments doing the entire offseason? Is it really that hard to get 15-20K people to come to a football game five times a year?
I want spring football to succeed; I've been a fan since the original USFL 40 years ago. But it won't -- can't -- without butts in the seats. Ratings, shmatings...this is just an embarrassment.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 31 '25
It's true. It's definitely not a good look for the league at all that attendance has decreased YoY and butts should definitely be in seats. The game definitely looks better when they have active fan engagement like they do at St. Louis and at D.C., to an extent.
It doesn't look like the marketing departments have done much at all, and they should definitely be criticized for what they did. I hope that there is a change in the next offseason and that there's a bigger push throughout the year. Hell, they didn't even release single game ticket sales until a month before kickoff.
The league wants to not pull an AAF like you said (although under very different circumstances). This league has looked the most committed to being around. Many major league's didn't start out fast with attendance, but they also didn't have the exposure like the UFL does. XFL 2020 definitely didn't look sustainable, even if COVID didn't happen.
I assume that attendance/marketing will have a bigger push next year when there's a clear growth path for the league and they have more stability than now. They just got their new headquarters a couple of months ago.
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u/daltontf1212 St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
Surfing channels yesterday and stumbled upon a National Lacrosse League game in Atlanta. Looked pretty sparse.
Made me curious:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NLL/comments/1cccitr/2024_attendance_statistics/
I'm sure expenses for a football is quite a bit higher that a lacrosse team, but the TV contract should be more lucrative for the UFL.
The indoor lacrosse league has existed since the '80s.
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u/Heavy_Advice999 Michigan Panthers Mar 31 '25
Ah, indoor lacrosse! I was a Detroit Turbos fan back in the day!
But you can't compare the UFL and the NLL. One league plays American's favourite sport in outdoor stadiums, the other plays a niche sport in small arenas. There's really no excuse why a spring football league shouldn't be drawing at least 20K a game. (Hell, the original XFL drew 25K/game!)
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u/JournalofFailure St Louis Battlehawks Mar 31 '25
One thing they should copy from the AAF: a team in San Diego, where people are still mad about losing the Chargers. (Oakland, too.)
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u/ScientistOtherwise34 Birmingham Stallions Apr 03 '25
It is a matter of geography. They need to have about 4 teams at least on the west to make our economical for the eastern teams to play.
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Mar 30 '25
I know for a fact I’ve seen more ads for Fox’s coverage for Pickleball this week than I have for UFL.
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u/Prior-Purple9704 Mar 31 '25
I feel with the competition this weeks’ ratings will be a bit lower. With that being said, if it can average 750K I think that would be a W for the league. Any one agree or disagree?
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u/TheWiseTangerine2 Mar 31 '25
I'd love to go to a game but my local team charges insane prices for tickets.
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u/albloomfield60 Mar 31 '25
Low attendance is killing the tv product. It's hard to get into a game with nobody there. I checked into the Friday night Battlehawks Roughneck game and was genuinely disappointed to see nobody there on opening day. It truly ruins the atmosphere of the game.
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u/Rhine1906 Birmingham Stallions Mar 30 '25
Again man. This league is focused on the TV product. All the whining and moaning about attendance is putting the cart before the horse. You’re not getting G5 attendance yet, this league as an entity has only existed for two years and people have been ROUTINELY burned by spring football since fly by night league ideas throughout the 2010s.
The product is going to have to stick around for 3-4-5 seasons before we start seeing consistent attendance numbers. Until then? 10-12k is probably your high range.
TV numbers drive ad revenue which drives league value. Tickets are great but again you’ve got to convince families and fans this is worth the $20-$125 they’re going to shell out for the experience. And that’s a hard sell in a tighter economy with a bunch of guys who have relatively low to zero name recognition.
We care. Majority of the country does not, you have to last to make them care.
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u/Pineapple-Journey Mar 30 '25
It's clear the UFL is doing a bad job at boosting attendance. I'd say at the moment it's doesn't feel like they know what they're doing with most things...
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u/chicknsnadwich DC Defenders Mar 30 '25
True. We should automatically remove any posts with the words attendance in the title
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u/TheGoldenRail87 Arlington Renegades Mar 30 '25
Disagree. I like seeing the attendance figures even though I realize that the tv numbers are the ones that matter
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u/chicknsnadwich DC Defenders Mar 30 '25
That’s the one flaw with my logic. I do enjoy when that chart with attendance is posted.
But i’m super sick of every post being people complaining about attendance, and then some people who are just in this sub to complain about that.
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u/writingbyrjkidder Birmingham Stallions Mar 30 '25
For real, this should be a thing. It's so ridiculous at this point.
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u/pwolf1771 Arlington Renegades Mar 31 '25
That Memphis kickoff time is pretty ridiculous I can’t blame people for not being able to make it.
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u/RJMcBug Arlington Renegades Mar 31 '25
Again, it is likely catering to TV. It is easy to get a slot like that when March Madness is going on for both men's and women's. Best time to get the most eyeballs on the league before March Madness starts for the day.
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u/pwolf1771 Arlington Renegades Mar 31 '25
I completely agree the eyeballs are way more important than the butts in the seats. I’m really curious to see what the ratings look like
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u/jmblan78 Mar 31 '25
I’d just base everything out of Arlington since they seem to have “control” over dates, usage, etc.
All practices there, just host all four games there with a Friday slot, and alternating the double header on Saturday/Sunday. Try and work in other activities there for players not playing (Saturday meet and greet/autograph sessions for players that played on Friday).
Maybe rotate the city annually. It is a made for TV product so cut costs as much as you can.
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u/friendsofbigfoot Mar 31 '25
The advertising is better this year, I actually knew the date of the Battlehawks home opener without having to look it up like I did last year.
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u/JLammert79 Mar 31 '25
To be fair, Memphis attendance will be bad until they get a competent coach, a decent quarterback, one guy who can tackle...
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u/Familiar-Living-122 St Louis Battlehawks Apr 01 '25
I live in the St. Louis area, and it was so hard to find a place to watch the Battlehawks game, because EVERY bar owner had 0 knowledge that the league was starting this week.
i had to constantly help a new fan buy season tickets and having a view of a non-day 1 STH, was eye opening. It was a frustrating process, like the league was a secret club, because only previous STHs are on mailing lists, which is the only source of information since the league doesnt advertise on social media until single game tickets go on sale, a couple of weeks before week 1.
The Battlehawks die hard facebook groups constantly have people asking about their tickets and if we are still hosting the championship game. Usually the whole group is on top of everything but this year more people have no idea whats happening in the league.
Honestly they need to figure out how to bring Oliver Luck back. The current leadership just doesnt care.
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u/Signal_Plant3675 Apr 02 '25
Moose was at the Boats game. The liberty bowl sucks for games unless it’s at night
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u/Nolekeyz Apr 04 '25 edited Apr 04 '25
They should have put all the teams in smaller markets. There are enough sports in these larger cities already and local imbedded NFL fandom. Locations where marketing and advertising is way cheaper and the players can be local stars would make more sense. Adding local undrafted NCAA players would also keep support up. Most of the bigger market locations will struggle to fill seats.
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u/ShinDynamo-X Apr 05 '25
UFL had horrible marketing. Many football fans don't know the season is here and what times the games start. My brother had to remind me there was a game last night.
People won't show if they don't know.
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u/Resident_Angle6955 May 03 '25
The attendance at UFL games is terrible. Watching a game without a big cheering crowd really sucks! More people show up to my hometown's High School football games. The only team that has a good fan base is the St Louis Battlehawks.
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u/RiderNo51 Mar 31 '25
I agree focusing on attendance is a waste of time and energy. It's also not the indication of the league's health like people assume.
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u/TheShaneChapman Apr 02 '25
It is one of the metrics. And a very, very relevant one. Let's not kid ourselves.
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u/mwm991 Mar 31 '25
If you go on the UFL website they have run lots of stories on the amount of community and philanthropic work they've been doing in Memphis. It just hasn't worked out. Texas also does not need three teams. Dare I say it doesn't even need two. Can't say I am wildly confident Michigan or Birmingham will break 10k either. Every stadium should be market appropriate but no new teams should come in with a venue capacity over 30k at this point whether it's New York City or Dodge City. They need to be much more measured.
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u/TwizzlersSourz Birmingham Stallions Mar 30 '25
ESPN's choice of broadcasters is a great sign. They enlisted A-Team talent instead of unknowns and MACtion announcers.
FOX continues to use Klatt.
If the two companies switch to no-names, then we should worry.