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u/hoi4kaiserreichfanbo 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Trumpism talk page debated for weeks on its inclusion in the list of ideologies of Trumpism, and seemed to settle on "Neo-fascism (debated)", with a whopping 15 citations to support its inclusion.
Personally, taking the most conservative (as in least expansive) definition of fascism debated by historians, it seems fairly obvious to me:
Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.
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2d ago
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u/Pleadis-1234 12h ago
If Erdoğan and Orban are widely accepted as neo-fascists
They are?! By whom? I'm genuinely curious
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u/zkidparks 2d ago
People can argue over the application of the definition, but if it were anywhere other than the US, Trumpism would have been labeled neo-fascism the first time the article was written and almost no one would have bated an eye. And with two citations at most.
My frustration isn’t that being careful about such characterizations on Wikipedia is bad (most of my edits are trying to create NPOV, on non-newsworthy topics), but that it gets special treatment.
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u/BlazewarkingYT 2d ago
Op is being weird about it as well. Instead of starting a consensus is just warring over it.
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u/Mother_Boat1658 2d ago
Where is that definition from?
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u/hoi4kaiserreichfanbo 2d ago edited 2d ago
Robert Paxton, a historian famous for his work on the Vichy Regime who got angry that people were using fascism willy-nilly and so wrote a definition. This is from his book, the Anatomy of Fascism (available for free on the Internet Archive).
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u/slugbwebster 2d ago
I believe Trump is a fascist, but there is still a debate to be had about how much he is actually interested in implementing fascism. Congress still isn't a rubber stamp body for Trump, so while I think the man is a fascist, some people may have a hard time fully associating the Trumpism movement with fascism as it is honestly really unlikely America will fall into a fascist state
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u/zsdrfty 2d ago
People aren't agreeing, but you have a point - Trump is absolutely a fascist in ideology and aims, but if you compare them to any other fascist regime, these people have absolutely not seized that kind of absolute power and totally transformed the state yet, and they most likely don't even have the competence or support to do so (a few failed national guard deployments does not count, believe me - people don't realize how much worse it can and does get elsewhere )
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago
It has not yet been consolidated, but they are making alarmingly fast progress.
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u/Abletontown 1d ago
Our only saving grace so far has been the fact that many of them are just incompetent sycophants, but that will only slow them down for so long.
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u/Accomplished-Year649 2h ago
- Win election on an explicitly authoritarian platform ✅
- Declare a state of emergency immediately upon inauguration ✅ (states of emergencies declared in certain areas but i think the big one will be just before the midterms)
- Purge the federal bureaucracy ✅ (DOGE)
- Ignore or override court rulings ✅
- Mobilize a populist base to pressure Congress ✅
- Shut down or gut mainstream media and academia ✅ (in process)
- Concentrate police and security powers in the executive ✅ (in process) ❗️we are here ❗️
- Arm a loyal populist base as an enforcement
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u/matellai 16h ago
Where’s the violence?
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u/hoi4kaiserreichfanbo 15h ago
J6. Astute observation on that being the least obvious, as the author of this definition didn't believe Trump was a fascist until after J6.
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u/grizzlor_ 15h ago
To apply another popular metric for fascism: it seems pretty clear that Trumpism fulfills Umberto Eco’s 14 common features of fascism. Some of the points feel almost too on-the-nose (disagreement is treason, fear of outsiders, obsession with a plot, contempt for the weak).
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u/Jealous_Tutor_5135 2d ago
OP do you believe fascism is:
A. a form of government
B. a specific historical political movement
C. a kind of moral aesthetic
D. a narrative-driven political strategy
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u/Takeshi-Ishii 2d ago
E. All of the above
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u/CozyCoin 1d ago
So aka "anything I want it to be"
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u/Remarkable_Cap_2246 1d ago
Being kind of incoherent has been a big part of fascism throughout history, yes. That's the funny thing about totalitarianism. It, by nature, is kind of everything.
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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 22h ago
Fascism is a type of movement and a dynamic, it's what happens when a democracy goes downhill and the exact same combination of strong leader, against outsiders and backed by some elites crops up.
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u/the_genius324 2d ago
why are you editing the page
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u/pingpongballreader 1d ago
To divide and rule. Getting people arguing about Trump excites the christofascists and makes sane people tired of politics and check out rather than fixing it by kicking out the christofascists from power.
"Make politics boring again" is the opposite of MAGA.
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u/CrystaLavender 2d ago
Curious why OP has a lesbian flag in their pfp when they seem so eager to defend Trump and his fascist ideals.
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u/EfectiveDisaster2137 1d ago
Because being a lesbian doesn't automatically mean you have normal views. As this example shows, you can absolutely support Trump.
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u/ezequielrose 2d ago
scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds 🤷🏻♀️
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u/4tbf 2d ago
This is a stupid quote, only a tankie could say shit like this.
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u/T3chn0fr34q 2d ago
nah this started with the very true history that the liberal parties/politicians worked with the nsdap pre 1933, where in the room when hitler got made chancellor and in part even continued working with the nazis when even the last fool saw what they really where.
and today again the right wing of the cdu, neoliberal pos party of merkel and merz, is stepping closer and closer to the afd and some have openly said that maybe the neonazis should be treated as a normal party because they got votes. which is the same type of shit some republicans have talked about, as if getting votes through lying makes being a facist ok.
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u/GOT_Wyvern 2d ago
The Reichstag had no power over the appointment of the Chancellor by 1933. It was formed by the decree of the President, as way unfortunately constitutionally allowed.
In fairness, liberal parties did tend to support Hindenburg in the 1932 election, and were pretty split in the 1925 election. In 1925, some conservative-liberals generally supported Hindeburg, while other conservative-liberals and liberals support a Centre Party candiate. In 1932, Hindenburg was the anti-Nazi vote.
The Hitler cabinet was a coalition between the Nazi Party and the far-right national-conservative DNVP, that was basically just the Nazi-lites while supporting the restoration of the German monarchy. Not even liberal-conservarives were part of the decree coalition.
By the point of the Enabling Act, Germany was already an authoritarian dictatorship as not only was it being governed by the decrees of the President, but the Reichstag Fire Decree removed civil liberties and political protections. All the Enabling Act did was allow the government to govern even without Presidential decrees, which was basically just a formality at that point.
Admittedly, it is true that only the SPD publicly spoke out and voted against the bill, but liberal and conservative-liberal parties voted for it not out of support, but because they weren't operating in a democracy any more. It wasn't long after the Act that political opponents were being arrested and killed, and voting with the Nazis allowed some to survive in silence. Not a deputy but nonetheless politically significant at the time, but the post-war Chancellor Konrad Adenauer remained in silent hiding for the vast majority of Nazi rule.
What there also is to discuss is the Centre Part. The only other major party beside the Nazis, SPD, and KPD, they were liberal-conservatives that primarily supported Catholics. They were split over whether to vote in agreement, but ultimately chose to continue protecting Catholic interests in a Nazi dictatorship, rather than join the SPD in opposing that dictatorship by 1933.
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u/Brazilian_Brit 2d ago
They are an authoritarian tankie, check them out.
Every time this quote has been said it’s been by some tankie or red fascist.
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u/thesuperdooperpooper 1d ago
Fascist is when you are so anti-fascist you wish to defend yourself from its seed and not only when it's already easily detectable
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u/KxJlib 1d ago
If we look at early 30s Germany, The social democrats were not the ones joining up with Hitler, that was the KPD: “First Hitler, then us” was the philosophy of the time. Then the USSR signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and was integral to Germany’s early-war success due to resource transfer, specifically oil. The Liberal United Kingdom and France were the first to stand up to Hitler, when the Soviets easily could’ve been seen as “the bigger threat” if they were that way inclined. Stalin was extremely comfortable with the Nazis being in power, so much that he took the time to purge his entire military upper and middle command as the invasion of Poland and France was ongoing - doesn’t sound like someone gearing up for war.
Scratch a communist, and a Nazi collaborator bleeds.
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u/ezequielrose 1d ago
Half the UK's aristocracy were collaborators, including a lot of rich Americans too, especially ones in positions of power. American companies were collaborators too, like Ford, who had a whole factory in the nazi death camps, because people were put to slave labor in those camps. Colonial states like the US are aligned with the same imperial powers because their goals were and are the same. Kennedy's father was one of them, which makes sense considering he made his fortune off the Great Depression. The rise in socialism and workers' rights did a lot of things, most notably set off a few revolutions in Europe, some successful, some not. This kind of international explosion didn't just happen out of nowhere. When empires die or contract, they flail, brutally, they try to hold on, desperately- and for a state, desperation means militarily. Same goes for domestic policy, as usually when empires flail, they drain their base to support the militaristic crackdowns, taking chunks out of peoples' quality of life- so when empires contract, they tend to turn that imperial energy inwards too.
Fascism comes up when profitable economics are threatened. Upswings in socialism, workers rights, land rights, etc., require suppression by the ruling classes in order to keep that line going up, and that's why right wing politics are called "reactionary." They're very sensitive, essentially, which does make sense when you consider these were monarchies who despised their own people, and didn't want them to have things like healthcare and gold jewelry. They thought even less of those they colonized.
For the record, here's a nice cuddly Churchill quote: https://www.nationalchurchillmuseum.org/churchills-1919-war-office-memorandum.html#:~:text=War%20Office%20Memo-,Churchill's%201919%20War%20Office%20Memorandum,about%20the%20use%20of%20gas.&text=It%20is%20not%20necessary%20to,on%20most%20of%20those%20affected
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u/NocturnalGoblinoid 1d ago
Yes Liberals, literally the only force on earth that was able to defeat fascism and authoritarianism. They are the real fascists.
Iamverysmart tankie.
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u/Foreskin_Ad9356 2d ago
Well I have a lesbian flag because I'm a lesbain. Sorry, I thought it spoke for itself.
I am not defending trump. I hate trump. Im also not defending fascism. But I am dedicated to historical precision and I will not be compliant in historical revisionism on the basis of ideology and political motivation.
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u/cheezyteague 2d ago
how is this historical revisionism? this isnt revising the facts of historical fascist movements, this is a analysis of a contemporary movement which is implementing and supporting fascist policies
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u/lamanitou 2d ago
Fascism is not solely a historical object, it also has an objective political and philosophical definition that applies to modern movements which do not necessarily make direct call backs to historical forms of fascism. I think this is why it got labeled as neofascist.
If you are that interested in preserving scientific accuracy, why do you brush off this idea so dismissively?
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u/MegaJackUniverse 1d ago
Then you need to reassess what you think the word fascism even means. Yet you're somehow doubling down? OP, this is ridiculous. You've been combative and pathetically, childishly insulting to the first person to question you. I'm sorry you're not enjoying yourself about this, but you were and are incorrect
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u/Foreskin_Ad9356 1d ago
I reassess pretty much every couple days lmao. Im entirely willing to change my opinion if I find new information
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u/Curious-End-4923 1d ago
Does it give you pause that multiple people defending you in this thread are fully identifying as supportive of fascism?
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u/Danger_Dan127 19h ago
The fact that having the ability to put a flag like that in on the profile options to show ones sexuality on a open forum style website is just baffling.
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u/StarlightLifter 2d ago
Am a historian who has focused on fascism as of late. Can absolutely confirm. He and the movement are fascist as fuck.
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u/Aspergersstrongest 3h ago
Veneration of the state? Intense centralization in a personality cult? Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State?
What are your qualifications?
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u/sitting00duck00 1d ago
TLDR: OP posts a no-description picture and fighting in the comments about how trumpism is NOT fascism/is removing vandalism because it shouldn’t be in the list and claims to be a historian… but also refuses to share what their definition of fascism is. Others have provided several similar definitions of fascism and pointed out the similarities. OP should post their definition and explain why they don’t think trumpism is fascism (edit / put into the description is my recommendation b/c I can’t find her comment explaining it if it exists), otherwise this post was made in super bad faith.
Also as a gay man, it’s terrifying to watch the lesbian community start to turn conservative. I’ve seen too many people trying to pretend like trump isnt shitting all over the constitution with each executive order.
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u/WhiteBuffalo976 1d ago
Never fear! Lesbian army veteran, left-leaning but unaffiliated reporting 🫡 will still die to defend the US constitution if I have to. For now I'm just watching and waiting on the people. I hope with all my heart my fellow Americans on both sides will rise to break free from the ever-growing, parasitic and manipulative oligarchy. Greedy powers are doing everything they can to spread propaganda, divide and conquer us. I do believe that they will ultimately fail. But Americans are so comfortable that I fear we're gonna need to see irrefutable evidence before we realize our government has abandoned its duty to us. Like, something magnitudes bigger than Kent State would have to happen before the people unite. So yeah.. ... It's been really rough to see the lines being slowly crossed--the writing is on the wall to those who understand the flow of power and corruption...and still, about a quarter of our population is just so pleased about it. Only a near-sighted simpleton could defend our government's recent lack of concern for: our loss of global soft power, the attacks on our Constitution, worker's rights, our "allies'" behavior, democratic decay, the heritage foundation, the perversion of our justice system, all of it. It's rage-inducing that any American could choose to defend such unamerican shit. Must be an education thing...
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u/Zombies4EvaDude 2d ago
What’s the problem? Seems pretty accurate to me. People justifying everything he does in the name of othering groups of people- no matter the legality. “Trump 2028” advocates are traitorous as heck.
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u/UkrainianHawk240 1d ago
Yeah deporting 6 million without trial or taking away rights from trans minorities is DEFINITELY NOT FASCISM
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u/Impossible-Guitar957 2d ago
I don’t see an vandalism here, but I am glad to see the movements listed in alphabetical order. It makes it so much easier to navigate when it’s alphabetical.
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u/Alastor-24 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think a better name would be MAGA, the whole facist movement can really be summed up by MAGA, MAGA is a representation of the collective push from the facists
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u/grumpsaboy 1d ago
He perfectly fits fascism.
Ian Kershaw has also called him fascist. Ian Kershaw, perhaps the greatest source of authority on fascism in the world.
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u/LiminalityMusic 2d ago
You do realize that by vandalizing that page your IP is visible, lol
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u/MolochBaalWorshipper 2d ago
Add Irgun and Kahanism.
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u/___Cyanide___ 2d ago
Second this. A lot more fascist than Trump. And to a degree Haganah is too although it is kind of different. You missed Lehi though.
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u/Jimm_Kekw 1d ago
irgun were terrorists, not fascists. kahanists are kinda fascists, except they dont have any word about the economy, which usually is kinda a part of fascist movements plus they are religiously motivated which is uncommon for fascism. id still say they are fascist enough to be counted
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u/Dramatic-Blueberry98 2d ago edited 2d ago
And stuff like this is why Wikipedia is not considered a reputable source. Too easy to edit over and over again if it serves someone’s agenda or bias. This is common enough with most socio-political related pages especially.
Hell, it’s even been common with personal pages and history pages as well.
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u/Cheap-Surprise-7617 1d ago
You misunderstand the platform. You can't cite wikipedia, but it is a great place to begin. The citations and edits always give you insight into what's still controversial. I find that those who imply the platform has a sever bias usually are just coping and seething about the platform not conforming to their preconceived biases. This thread and your comment are a great example (unless I've confused the meaning and you're against OP, in which case I apologize).
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u/Dramatic-Blueberry98 1d ago
I’m just implying that Wikipedia makes it too easy for people to start edit wars over the smallest details, so people who are genuinely looking for information should probably not bother even referring to the articles themselves.
Like you mentioned, there are some genuinely interesting and potentially informative links to sources that can be found on there. I’m not against that.
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u/TheDeadQueenVictoria 1d ago
I'm glad trumpism is it's own recognised brand of fascism because it IS just your generic neo-fascism with all the capitalist degeneracy and corruption and typical cult of personality BUT what REALLY sets it apart from NatSoc and Brownshirts and the BUF and Franco is how FUCKING stupid it is. It is UNIQUELY stupid, even for fascism.
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u/Biodegradable_Duck 1d ago
I'm not defending Trump in any way, but the Nazis(Nationalsozialist) and the Communists were extreme parts of socialism. While yes, nazis are far right and communists are far left, the horseshoe concept explains that when you become so radical in one direction, you begin to wrap around to the other side and believing in similar concepts. To an extent, liberalism has more in common with socialism than conservativism. Extreme conservativism leads to anarchy, or lack of government, due to the belief of hands off government. Extreme socialism causes totalitarianism due to hands on government. By calling Trump a fascist, along with his followers, its saying he isn't an extreme conservative, but an extreme socialist. Which wraps back around to Liberals having most in common with socialism. Trump can't be an extreme republican then if he has nothing to do with Anarchist beliefs. Trump is bad, but don't call him the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of evil government systems. I believe he is a totalitarian leader, but he isn't a conservative, the math doesn't lead to it.
Just give him the special orange man category.
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u/Achilles_59 20h ago
This is so wrong, the word socialism in the name of the NSDAP has everything to do with socialism as the word democracy has to do with name of the DDR or DPRK. The original roots of the party lays in the German workers party a right wing party in line with the Freikörper in the aftermath of WW1. The started using the word socialist to appeal the working classes. They never ever subscribed to any socialist ideology in any way. They were right wing and racist from the get go.
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u/lord_khadgar05 2d ago
He’s not a fascist, he’s just a self centered egotistical moron that thinks everything he says or does is so profound.
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u/MarketingKnown5788 2d ago
Shouldn't it say MAGA? "Trumpism" is a neologism which sounds far too meaningless whereas MAGA is a genuine fascist mass movement headed by and centered on Trump.
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u/GingaNinja64 2d ago
I mean tbf the Wikipedia page for Trumpism lists neo-fascism as one of its ideologies
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u/Maximum-Night-9444 2d ago
i mean…where’s the wrong? i don’t see wikipedia vandalism, i just see true facts
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u/provocative_bear 1d ago
Yeah, that's ridiculous! The Traditionalist Workers Party has reformed itself to have an ideology better defined as Nationalist Bolshevism.
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u/sononawagandamu 1d ago
god i love reading through posts on reddit by neuorodivergent argumentative OPs
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u/vanadous 1d ago
Just remember every fascist movement had it's supporters, and fascism doesn't only mean nazi Germany. There's many parties that could have gotten to that point if allowed, but were curtailed or stopped.
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u/_JuliaDream_ 1d ago
I doubt this counts as vandalism, even assuming it’s “technically“ incorrect, a piece of information on WP being wrong =/= vandalising wikipedia. I do not think it’s false, though.
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u/xxTPMBTI 1d ago
Trump isn't Syndicalist and Futuristic enough. It's Reactionary and Totalitarian though.
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u/Biodegradable_Duck 1d ago
This comment section was acting like all the Trump supporters were coming to defend this post. No, its just people calling anyone they don't like, left or right, fascist.
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u/Foreskin_Ad9356 1d ago
pretty much. i dont think ive spoken to anyone in the comments here that voiced support for trump. you can think hes a cunt without changing the meaning of words to ''what i dont like''.
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u/Project-Norton 1d ago
Bro posted his own vandalism to karma farm
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u/Foreskin_Ad9356 1d ago
no?
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u/muffinman210 22h ago
"Trumpism"? I've never heard it called that from anyone other than those who hate him. I've certainly never heard his supporters call it that. Seems like you can just as easily call something the "racism" party, and claim it's the official party name.
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u/mrcrabs6464 17h ago
Ok debate aside is that really what we’re calling it? “Trumpism” not MAGA, or smth trumpism is such a stupid term it’s like calling nazi’s hitlerism and or fashism as a whole “mussolini’ism”
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u/ConfusledCat 16h ago
Getting here before this gets locked. And yeah, this won’t spark controversy at all.
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u/BulgarianChocolateer 13h ago
What do you think fascism is? Trump is very, very, very, VERY far from fascism
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u/Ok_Marketing328 35m ago
I think this one knows enough about ‘being othered’ as to not be a fascist . A ‘separatist’, sure maybe but not really a fascist.
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u/luckytheresafamilygu 2d ago
Gonna be a great comment section i can already smell it