r/Wildfire • u/dcomer_21 • Feb 06 '25
News (General) Proposed Bill to create a “National Wildland Firefighting Service”
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u/Better-Butterfly-309 Feb 06 '25
Would a national agency like this make the emphasis on natural resource management less
Essentially creating a giant calfire like fed agency
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u/__alpenglow Feb 07 '25
Project 2025 calls for the abolishment of all our public lands anyway, and the man who is going to implement just got confirmed as OMB chair. This should literally be the least of your worries as a citizen of a country that is about to fall.
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u/Set_the_Mighty Feb 07 '25
I've been wondering how they will get rid of the -ologists. Don't need any smart people protecting public land if there isn't any public land. I figured he might just declare relevant laws void with his mental powers too. Like just say ARPA is no longer in effect and consequently we don't need archaeologists on the Forest anymore.
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u/Firefluffer Feb 06 '25
So when they aren’t on fires, nothing gets done? Like without an agency attached to them, no project work for slow seasons? Sounds wasteful.
What about housing? Still at the existing agency or are we going to spend billions on new housing?
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u/sten45 ENOP scum Feb 07 '25
Look at you being reasonable and asking questions that are not related to getting big daddy aerial firefighter paid
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u/JoocyDeadlifts Feb 07 '25
I mean...a lot of resources I'm acquainted with do awfully little project work anyway, and a lot of fuels FMO types rationally don't plan on fire being around very much to help out. It may be different depending on where you go, but I think there are a lot of places where that ship has pretty much sailed.
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Feb 07 '25
[deleted]
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u/JoocyDeadlifts Feb 07 '25
The crews where I am help the rest of the district with a ton of shit they could never pull off otherwise.
The crews where I'm at will do project when they're around, but they're not around a whole lot, so they don't do that much of it. I'd surely not work for leadership that held a resource back from a fire assignment to string fence for base checks. There's also a common situation where the only resources available are 2hr from the unit. If management authorizes OT and per diem that doesn't have to be a show-stopper, but they seldom have so authorized, so, again, not much ends up getting done.
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u/Hunter_Biden_MBA_CFA Feb 07 '25
Sounds like some south ops shit
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u/JoocyDeadlifts Feb 07 '25
I didn't say it was a good thing. But as goes south ops, so goes the entire fire org with a 5-10yr lag.
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u/Responsible_Book_599 Feb 07 '25
Independence from bullshit "other duties as assigned" would be a plus, not a minus. Project work would have to be negotiated through formal agreements, liberating the fire side of the house from being every other department's bitches for anything they foist on over-accommodating fire leadership.
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Feb 07 '25
[deleted]
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u/Responsible_Book_599 Feb 07 '25
No, I believe in striking a balance between meaningful fuels work, assignments when not needed for IA, and an emphasis on quality training. I don't believe a well-trained, well-organized fire resource should be the general gopher that does everyone else's dirty work. And no, I don't believe everyone else is as pulled-around as fire.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
Absolutely agree! So tired of “oh the fire guys will do it”
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u/Responsible_Book_599 Feb 07 '25
I don't wanna hate on the resource people, because I love them and appreciate everything they do, but if we want to be taken seriously as a profession we have to go beyond being the general purpose, summer kid dumb labor. I've worked at places where general work takes the front seat and actually training people to be competent firefighters/practitioners is a distant, distant second.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
We should be paid to prioritize fire not some other departments bitch work because they don’t want to do it, don’t want to hire the required people to do it, or they think they are too good to do it and the task is under them so they just “have the fire guys do it”. Also a lot of them do get paid to do nothing while fire and the very few field employees they have do all the lifting. Ahhh great question, “what terrible things did they make you do exactly?”
Try to force firefighters to stay at the home unit to help “do for them” miscellaneous recreation facilities maintenance during pl 5 instead of responding to fires.
Try to force firefighters to stay at the home unit during fire season to mark timber, also force them to take a timber marking class so they can be certified to mark timber.
Piss and moan about how fire never helps them when in fact we do 80 percent of their jobs while they hide in their office.
Force firefighters to delay a prescribed burn so they can help other department move around office furniture.
Force firefighters to delay training and fire equipment maintenance to help “do for them” unload semi trucks full of their bullshit.
Routinely request help from firefighters but not reciprocate when firefighters need help with their tasks.
Piss and moan that fire never does anything except fire.
Continues to under appreciate firefighters.
One of my favorites - refuses to create more positions in their department to maintain adequate staffing levels, treats what few employees they have like dogshit, those employees leave, demands fire picks up their slack, turns around and blames fire for being the reason they can’t hire anyone.
Routinely looks down on fire
I can keep going
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Feb 07 '25
[deleted]
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
Idk why you got downvoted, this is a solid answer and I see your point. My coworkers in the other departments that come to me for help I will do anything for, it is the management in both departments that is the problem. I have been to multiple places and the things I listed has always been the norm. One department has a lazy ass manager that doesn’t do anything, the fire shop has a or a few “yeah anything you want types” that will throw their employees over a cliff to look good for leadership and get that next promotion. I like to call them ladder climbers
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u/ajlark25 Feb 06 '25
Isn’t that Aerial Firefighters group sheehy’s group?
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u/ajlark25 Feb 06 '25
Ok looks like he was a founding board member
https://www.airmedandrescue.com/latest/news/founding-united-aerial-firefighters-association
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u/Set_the_Mighty Feb 06 '25
Sounds like they are planning on renaming NIFC and funneling its funds to themselves.
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u/realityunderfire Feb 06 '25
I’ve always wondered how much grifting She/he is gonna do. He has some glorious role models. All Montanans had to do was vote tester, immeasurably better candidate, but he had a D next to his name.
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u/Specialist-Sport-944 Feb 07 '25
Motherfucker, y’all are the reason we don’t have a budget. We’ve been under CRs since like 2018. What the actual fuck is this monstrosity of an organization going to improve upon? What a report card on NIFC….sorry all, you’re not cutting it. Yikes So are we going to consolidate to a single “Land Management Agency” under the DOI as well? Who will you work for under said fire response? I can see utility in a full blown fire suppression scenario but when you’re operating under a “managing for strategic long-term risk reduction” who the hell’s playing the role of agency administrator? Prescribed fire? Will a National fire agency more or less act as a contractor and do as local land managers plan for….say….a burn plan….? I’m down for whatever but holy shit we can’t even consolidate dispatch centers let alone multiple federal fire agencies that span the entirety of CONUS. Make it happen, Captain.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
I think it would be similar to what the LEOS got going on where we would only answer directly to overhead in fire, having a ranking structure of fire personnel that we would answer to. Still work on districts but be our own thing
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u/Shoddy_Pay5822 Feb 12 '25
You are correct. I’ve never talked to an LE that wishes they still worked for a line officer with no LE experience. We may find ourselves missing our logos and old identity but not our chain of command.
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u/Cultural-Ad4277 fed bagger Feb 06 '25
No surprise there’s nothing about a pay fix in there.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
The plan is to include - first bullet, “A budget for the National Wildland Firefighting Service”
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u/Internal_Emergency93 Feb 07 '25
From the last paragraph, looks like out by 1000 is back on the menu. Full suppression all the time every time is what got us in the situation we are now. I can only speak on the mid Klamath River so your mileage may vary.
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u/Particular-Walrus439 Feb 07 '25
This is a stupid idea, don’t we already have an organization like this, NIFC? Response isn’t the problem, the issue is land management. Fully fund the Forest Service and DOI, don’t give us a shoe string budget and an inefficient budget structure. This is just an attempt to take the power away from the land managers and put it in the control of an appointed director!!!
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u/thatranger974 Feb 07 '25
I call bullshit. They want to destroy federal capabilities then privatize it so rich people can make more money.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
If they want to privatize why do they want to create a new branch of federal government specifically for wildland firefighters? How would consolidating all fire positions in different land management agencies into one federal firefighting agency destroy our capabilities? Wouldn’t it improve them?How would rich people make more money off of a new branch of federal government? I would be interested in your opinion on this but seems to me you are just one of the many on here trying to hate every single thing because of a political party, I bet if they actually did implement the permanent pay fix exactly how it was originally proposed by the union you all would still try to find a way to shit on it. Just so you know, moderation helps. It isn’t healthy to sit on board this ship and hope it sinks because you don’t like the new captain. Also before you call me a nazi, racist, orange clown lover, etc. I fucking despise him to but if something comes down the pipeline that could potentially benefit us I am fully supportive of it regardless of which party is in office proposing it
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u/thatranger974 Feb 07 '25
Read between the lines.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
There is no lines to read between, I don’t see an issue with it unless they fuck it up, but what is proposed could be a good thing
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u/Shoddy_Pay5822 Feb 08 '25
This has been begged for since Casey Judd and the FWFSA days. The Idea is that fire would work for fire all the way to the top. Land managers and their agencies would have to negotiate with the firefighters in order to accomplish objectives. There would be layers of protection built in to avoid bearing all the burden for the district. The primary mission in firefighting has always been and should remain fire suppression. Initial attack on new starts is always the priority. Some of you worried about not being able to build piles or your cherry pie deals at home need to get a few more years experience and insight. We can do better and should expect more from our managers and administrators. We would still work under the direction of agency administrators and fire managers, still do project, severity, prepo, but they couldn’t just do whatever they want with us anymore. I guess if I never get asked to stage for IA that’s never gonna come and rip chain on project 3 states away, on 10s and sleep on the lawn getting camp per diem…if that never happens again to me or my guys or my kids, I will happily sign onto the new agency and wear whatever color shirt they ask. Sheehy is still a lame, but so our most of our line officers. Take them out of the picture and we may have something fair and overhead that fights for you because they don’t work for line.
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u/Simple_Panda6232 Feb 07 '25
...y'all know who Sheehy is, right? Betta call him up cuz you know he doesn't give two flying hoots about those laying the line.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
So? 🤷♂️ none of them do, if they did we would have had that permanent pay fix within a week
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u/Myewgul Hotshot Feb 07 '25
u/smokejumperbro I’m curious if you happened to have any insight here with something that’s crossed my mind.
I know there’s no mention of pay here but I’m curious from people you’ve talked to. Do you think the lack or support or hesitancy to support comes from at least in part to the land management agencies, and mostly FS, dropping the ball on budgeting and they don’t want to put more money in their coffers? It just occurred to me.
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u/smokejumperbro USFS Feb 07 '25
Lack of support? From whom for what?
The agency not supporting their FF going away?
Or Congress not supporting the agency?
I think Congress is just looking at what the forest service has done. The last administration made firefighter pay and well-being a top priority, and the USFS managed to delay and deny for the entire administration. BIL was passed in 2021 and immediately the USFS interpreted the pay to be a bonus instead of a base pay increase. They took all the money for mental health programs and formed some committees with no benefit to firefighters.
And I think people like Sen. Sheehy are listening to firefighters explain what a raw deal they're getting from the USFS.
Everyone is frustrated, firefighters are leaving at a breakneck pace, and the USFS seems hellbent on making their firefighters miserable.
Oh and then there are the 4,400+ unfunded positions that were hired to do 0 fieldwork, leading to laying off the current and future workforce of the forest service.
What part exactly of the USFS are they supposed to support?
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
I like this idea, please consolidate and stovepipe us so fuckheads that are not in fire unable to force us into bullshit. I feel for the employees of other departments but this other duties assigned bullshit has gone too far, we are constantly taken advantage of and forced to prioritize management in other department’s bitch work over what we are suppose to be doing. This other duties assigned bullshit, I am tired of it. I have heard just have the fire guys do it way too much.
Also… hell yeah, the agencies had what 4 years to pass our shit, what did they do instead? Moved that extra money around to other areas instead of where it was suppose to go then dangled a carrot in front of our face and talked about how much they cared while stealing the extra funding that was suppose to go to us for their own bullshit. Fuck them stovepipe us. Completely been mismanaging, underpaying, overworking, and outright treating us like shit, fuck them stovepipe us. The same people playing pretend to care about wild land fire pay were the same people that when it was first brought up, told me and my fellow employees to our faces, “you get paid in beautiful sunsets and scenery, if you don’t like the pay then find another job”. FUCK THEM STOVEPIPE US! Consolidate the firefighting force, pay us the way we should, form one unified federal firefighting agency, trim away a lot of the red tape that prevents us from doing our jobs, give us good physical/mental health support, and work life balance. I could give a fuck at this point if it’s democrats or republicans that pass this shit, but for fucks sake pass this shit already. This one firefighting agency thing, I like the idea but am also somewhat skeptical.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
Don’t forget about incorrectly creating pds for the new series, also continuing to downplay what we do so they can continue to pay us the bare minimum 😂. I think I’ll take my chances with this new firefighter specific agency thing, fuck your sunsets Randy
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u/sumdude155 Feb 07 '25
Yeah I don't trust Sheehy but having firefighters on the hill for the last complete of years with NFFE constantly talking about being mistreated and underpaid combined with the general conservative dislike of the land management agencies this probably shouldn't be surprising.
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u/Myewgul Hotshot Feb 07 '25 edited Feb 07 '25
Sorry, I didn’t phrase it very well. Yes, from Congress in not passing Tims Act or WFPPA and stuff last administration. Biden did great with raising minimum wages to 15 and with the BIL stuff. I’m with you on all of this.
I just meant with those bills not being passed. Due to the poor handling of interpreting the basic pay and base pay. The hiring permanent employees with temporary funds etc. And likely being a part in not wanting to give more money to the FS. Unless im misinformed with some of it.
I was just curious on the actual mindsets of the people holding the purse. It seems like you answered it though
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u/smokejumperbro USFS Feb 07 '25
The forest service gambled big on hiring everyone with temporary funds, for better or worse, and the gamble really went bust. If anyone actually knew about how it went down, it would go down in history as a colossally idiotic policy decision.
Obviously we're talking with hindsight, and obviously they were betting on Dems sweeping everything and just expanding the budget. I'm not trying to judge, but we need to be clear what the optics are now.
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u/Particular-Walrus439 Feb 07 '25
We didn’t gamble big on hiring, we bet on attrition that didn’t happen!
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u/highfrosty Feb 07 '25
Would you say it's a fair assumption that the hiring gamble has put a giant crosshair on the USFS now? I mean with this administration salivating at the thought of cutting anything and everything government. I'd think they would look what the USFS did with their hiring policy and resulting behemoth of a budget crisis and go absolute haywire making cuts and separating what they can from it.
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u/Whyisitsobent Feb 07 '25
There are so many questions to be asked and so very few legitimate answers. I have been in the good old FS for just over 2 decades. This has been a topic every single year. "They should just combine all the fed fire fighters, " "Why the hell do we have so many different federal resources sitting at the same table while adhering to different rules?"
I, for one, am a fan of this idea. If the fire management was controlled by one governing office, there would be a higher level of oversight. It could stop some of the differences that continue to push good fire fighters out of these agencies. One set budget. One set of standards. One giant workforce to rally together for fair pay and true work/ life balance. As the NFFE states, we are stronger united!
I hope we can all agree on at least one thing. The public doesn't know we exist. They don't know the stugles we face working for the feds. If we don't force the issue and accept some of the change, we will be replaced with privatized half wits that run on meth and delusions of grandeur. I know nothing is set in stone, and I am overly aware of the fluid life we live choosing to stay, but I am going to stay. I am going to continue to bite the hand that feeds until they offer a meal that will raise the standards. Be the squeaky wheel, the thorn in their side. Call your reps at the congressional and senate level. Tell them to support all of us.
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u/gerblnutz Feb 07 '25
So he wants the federal government to subsidise his failing fire business that's already propped up by Montana taxpayers? Isn't this the waste we are trying to cut?
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u/Chancellor-Yuban Feb 07 '25
Guessing this is S.441 (2025-2026) - no text present. Anyone confirm this - many new bills to sort through BTW...
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u/AlfalfaCurious Feb 07 '25
Go to Semafor.com. There is a link that says bill in the first paragraph that has the actual senate bill language. Sorry I don’t know how to copy and paste it. I do like the language from Sheehy in that article at Semafor, that states agency’s have “failed” firefighters. Personally, I like the idea of this Agency.
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u/MrWannabeStockMan Feb 07 '25
Fully fund a land management agency that routinely mismanages funds? That consistently plays and underpays their workforce? Can’t even form a permanent pay fix? I’ll take my chances with the appointed director, pulling us out of their circus and making us our own thing will give us the chance to prove our metal to the public as well as the politicians, and with the union backing us as well we have a better chance of getting all the right things we have always needed by consolidating. Also when one of these agencies fuck up big time yet again, we won’t go down with them and be under their umbrella. Together apes strong 💪🏼
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Feb 07 '25
How do States or even Provinces get rolled i to this? Or are these dickheads just trying to stick it to CA?
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u/SomeKindaCoywolf Feb 07 '25
Next up, no women or trans people in fire or the millitary. I wouldn't be surprised if they're dumb enough to try and include LE with as well.
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u/HitchInTheGit Feb 07 '25
Not a firefighter but really count on CalFire. Would this possibly be an effort to try and remove state wildfire agencies funding and move it under this federal agency?
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u/No-Translator9234 Feb 07 '25
Id say maybe an effort to be able to bully the forest service and nps without the media fallout of bullying firefighters too idk.
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 07 '25
No, that's not possible to do because the state controls the budget not the feds. There isn't any way for them to get control of state money. That's the one thing that would turn congress against him. More like get rid of all the fed fire agencies, USFS, BLM, NPS, F&W, BIA, and maybe even military fire. The idea has some merit but a hell of a lot of problems and because it's Tim, I smell grift.
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u/HitchInTheGit Feb 07 '25
Thanks for the response. I wasn't sure if they received significant federal funding. Yeah, the smell of grift wafting in the air has been strong since January.
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 07 '25
We (Cal Fire and local government fire) get paid by the feds for helping out on their fires that go more than I think a day if I remember right but other than that, not as far as I know. It's a good chunk of our state budget.
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u/pedro070782 Feb 07 '25
You also get reimbursed through fmag for almost all of your large fires by the feds
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u/hydrix13 Feb 07 '25
Correct me if I'm wrong, /u/bigwhitedog : Doesn't fed money kick in once the local ems is overwhelmed and it gets kicked up the geographical region? (local > county > district > state > gacc?) Or is that just the order of response?
(I'm used to hurricanes, more, where fed money isn't turned on until the governor declares a disaster.... then the money/P-code starts to bill against... am I incorrect in this assumption?)
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 07 '25
EMS or Emergency Services in general? Here in California we have a very well laid out and structured mutual aid system so yes if the locals get buried then the state kicks in to assist, both Cal Fire and our state OES (who has rigs of multiple types assigned to various FDs across the state). Fire-wise the state has responsibility for all lands not municipal, local responsibility or federal so any major non-fed fire is ours (I'm retired CF). The Fed money generally only kicks in if our Governor declares a disaster and asks for fed money. Usually we can afford not to ask but who turns down "free" money.
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u/rockshox11 :hamster: Feb 07 '25
180 days to develop an entire agency when they can't even decide on firefighter pay 🙄