r/Wildfire • u/ssgtsilerZ • Feb 11 '25
News (General) National Wildland Fire Service — Grassroots Wildland Firefighters
https://www.grassrootswildlandfirefighters.com/nwfsThis is what I woke up to this morning. Thoughts?
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u/0Marshman0 Feb 11 '25
Remove line officers, as in Forest sups and DRs?
“In the interim, we strongly recommend that wildland fire programs are immediately “stove-piped” under the US Forest Service and each DOI agency, removing current line officers from the chain of command and decision-making authority.”
I’m kind of confused by this last statement. Explain it to me like I’m a moron because I may very well be.
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u/Responsible_Book_599 Feb 11 '25
Like LEOs - they're assigned to an area but have their own chain of command and accountability that doesn't involve the District Ranger.
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u/rockshox11 :hamster: Feb 11 '25
Open and read the document, it explains it for each agency
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u/ssgtsilerZ Feb 11 '25
It's too hard to click 3 links
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u/rockshox11 :hamster: Feb 11 '25
chat, what do I think about this?
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u/Opposite_Ad_5514 Feb 11 '25
You like it. You want it. It's a well researched position backed up with straight facts. You want grassroots to have a seat at the table and u want policy makers to read grassroots proposal or listen to someone that has
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 11 '25
No other links
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u/ssgtsilerZ Feb 11 '25
I'm seeing:
GWF NWFS Press Release
GWF National Wildland Fire Service Briefing Paper
GWF NWFS Talking Points
See our latest newsletter highlighting NWFS
Questions? Sign up for our Quarterly Stakeholder update on 2/19/25! Standby for a FAQ to be shared shortly
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 11 '25
I see those but not as links.
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u/ssgtsilerZ Feb 11 '25
You can't tap em?
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u/BigWhiteDog Feb 11 '25
Nope. I know how the internet works lol
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u/ssgtsilerZ Feb 11 '25
that's fuckin wild. there's no hyperlink, it's just text? What browser are you using?
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u/Opposite_Ad_5514 Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25
The crazy proposal to not have some jibroni with one year on an engine and a biology degree have the finally say in whether an rx burn goes on or not, the final say in whether or not we supress a wilderness fires, the final say in whether an engine goes off forest. Instead have the 20 years in fire fmo make those descions. Also- not have the fmo or d.r. answer to some sycophantic teleworking buerocrat playing it safe til they retire.
Edit: got a little worked up and didn't actually explain stove pipe. A shorter chain of command that includes fire folks. So instead of district ranger to forest supervisor to regional supervisor to ??? To randy moore. It would go FMO to Deputy Chief of Fire & Aviation directly to the Chief of the Forest Service.
That's grwffs interim proposal and all terms are fs based because that's what I know. It's gonna take years
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u/dave54athotmailcom Mar 26 '25
In the 1990s stovepiping fire was all the rage. Gradually forests move back to District level organizations. It seemed to work better.
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u/MateoTimateo Feb 11 '25
I think that after five years under DHS people will be talking about the glory days with FS and DOI
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u/keltron Feb 11 '25
But why DHS?
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u/ProtestantMormon Feb 11 '25
A safer budget, maybe? Politically, cutting dhs is harder sell than cutting doi.
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u/retardanted Feb 11 '25
I’m tired of working in a poverty agency within a forgotten department
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Feb 11 '25
[deleted]
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u/retardanted Feb 11 '25
I was talking about one of the land management agencies within DOI. I hate to break it to you, but the USFS is forgotten about when it comes to appropriations. Fire is the best funded part of the agency and you guys have to beg supervisors to buy $30 worth of parts to keep 12 year old saws running
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u/xWadi Feb 11 '25
Cause we're actually defending the homeland. They have better protections, budget, compensation for injuries, and accountability. It doesn't overlap with other mission statements, we won't be ran by a non fire person. Non fire people can't just come over and abuse our system then walk away and have no side effects of fire while making us do as other duties assigned. The list goes on to separate from folks who don't work in fire and to get rid of the district supervisors who are crony and have to much authority.
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u/ZonaDesertRat Feb 11 '25
They have pay bands... They are always out of money. Totally dysfunctional agencies, Coast Guard, who have "bigger" missions than burning trees...
You don't want to work for DHS. If you think you do, go hit yourself in the head with a hammer until you understand that you don't want to work for DHS.
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Feb 11 '25
[deleted]
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u/ZonaDesertRat Feb 11 '25
The proposal to make it a stand alone bureau within DOI is the best of crappy options.
There is lots to break out of these proposals. If all we did were IMT responses, that would be one thing, but we are talking IA, fuels, mit/Ed and the whole game. Then let's talk about the non-suppression folks we need for all of that work. Will we have our own, will the agencies we provide services to provide them? How and where will the funding come from? How will there be consolidated between USFS and the DOI overlaps?
So many issues. Can they be overcome, absolutely. It won't be quick or painless though.
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u/GrouchyAssignment696 Feb 11 '25
Agree. DHS is the most politicized cabinet department. The head of fire would be a political appointee, regardless what the law says, and you would get a new director, asst directors, regional heads, etc every four years.
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u/ZonaDesertRat Feb 11 '25
You're going to get that no matter the agency. It's the culture of DHS I don't want to be a part of... I was once, I won't do it again. And a fire service component is such a small part of what DHS is, it would be the same nightmare of USFS, but with even more idiots in command.
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u/Snowdog__ Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25
By removing district and regional foresters from the chain of command, how do you NOT end up with a repeat of the 10 AM Policy?
The culture of a suppression-only agency with no local input will be to "Fight Fire Aggressively...." full stop.
Unless these are full-timers who also work as fuels crews over winter....under the direction of Foresters....when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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u/SientoQueMerezcoMas Feb 14 '25
One unified fire agency will definitely be suppression oriented. I doubt any prescribed fire or managed natural ignition or fire use fire will happen again.
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u/Fluffy_Bid_4500 Feb 12 '25
So is this like a bill that’s gonna get submitted or just a suggestions from grass roots?
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u/Due_Investment_7918 Feb 12 '25
It’s a bill that has already been submitted, Grassroots is campaigning for a chance to help guide the process
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u/ssgtsilerZ Feb 12 '25
Also looks like they have their own ideas about a NWFS vs what the bill proposes
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u/xWadi Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25
Grassroots (+1) vs. NFFE (-1)
Never forget
https://www.unionfacts.com/employee/National_Federation_of_Federal_Employees/RANDY/ERWIN/
Remember when we all wanted the Tim Hart Act, and they introduced the WFPPA that not many wanted. Then, they put grassroots, and the majority vote to the side to give us subpar work.
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u/hartfordsucks Rage Against the (Green) Machine Feb 11 '25
You want to talk about overpaid individuals? Let's fucking go.
Oh no Randy Erwin makes $176k a year fighting for worker's rights and better employee benefits! How terrible! Given that NFFE represents 100k members, that means each employee pays $1.76 per year for his salary. $176k a year is what a senior developer or a mid level manager at a tech company makes. If anything he should probably be paid more.
The Chief of the USFS makes $200k a year to run the agency into the ground. Most of his minions make $150-200k a year. Where's your anger about that?
From AFL-CIO:
In the past 10 years, typical CEO pay at S&P 500 companies increased by more than $4 million, to an average of $17.7 million in 2023. Meanwhile, the average U.S. worker saw a wage increase of $18,240 over the past decade, earning on average just $65,470 in 2023.
Why is it you anti-union window lickers care more about the salaries of union leaders than CEOs? Unlike CEOs, Randy Irwin is out there earning his pay, trying to make life better for workers, and fighting for our fucking rights. What the fuck are CEOs doing with their money? Buying elections, overthrowing our government, and eliminating as many worker's rights as possible.
Unions and your fellow workers are not your enemy. Republicans intentionally divide the working class with bullshit culture war fights and their anti-union rhetoric. All to distract everyone from them wholeheartedly selling out the working class to the highest corporate bidder.
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u/xWadi Feb 13 '25
I'm not advocating for randy either both suck. And yes gut the office as well. They don't need to be there with an agency so crappy. Thanks. I can go down a very long rabbit hole with wall street as well. Culture war? How the left has been funding dei ideology and forcing people to accept it throughout every society using funds that weren't there's to allocate, let alone it's a Marxist idea. Lit.
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u/hartfordsucks Rage Against the (Green) Machine Feb 13 '25
I'm sorry, I don't know how to reply to your incoherent right-wing conspiracy theory MadLibs.
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u/xWadi Feb 15 '25
Lol can only attack and throw out trigger words the left keeps telling their fans to use. L8r g8r
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u/hartfordsucks Rage Against the (Green) Machine Feb 15 '25
How the left has been funding dei ideology and forcing people to accept it throughout every society using funds that weren't there's to allocate, let alone it's a Marxist idea.
This entire sentence is nothing but lies made up of "trigger words" from right-wing propaganda. That everyone regardless of race, color, creed, sexual orientation, and gender deserve equality in this country is now a "Marxist idea"? Wow. And here I thought "treat others as you want to be treated" was just a "kindergarten idea". I'm sorry you felt "forced" to treat other people equally. I'm super happy for you that you can go back to being an openly hateful bigot.
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u/frostedminifeets Wildland FF1 Feb 11 '25
Go suck on the remnants of someone’s Blue Room leftovers.
-Is that first link straight from Alex Jones’ corpse?
-The Union and Grassroots have worked together on the same issues for years now. One bill did not harm the other, if anything it doubled our chances of getting something. If you do a little due diligence search, you’ll neither was passed, mostly due to one party making the last few years some of the most unproductive ever on the Hill.
-Complete misdirection, and a textbook response from the Rs, Fox News, and the like. Good for him, in my eyes he’s earned that since January 21st this year alone.
Stop stoking division and realize that NFFE is the only one to offer hard, legal, contractual protections for us that we benefit from daily, (assuming you are actually one of us and not a paid bad actor like that Swamp Rat and that cuck Instagram influencer) and Grassroots is another flank that heads up the same good fight.
Now excuse me, I’m gonna go ski and try to forget I read your horseshit in the first place.
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u/Most-Background8535 Feb 11 '25
Get rid of the input or ideology of the non fire background of line officers and Forest Supervisors. Plus it will eliminate undue spending they choose to do. Fund some non essential items. Just my opinion
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Feb 11 '25
100%. A lot of people who post here on r/WILDFIRE aren’t fighting wildfires by how often posts like yours get downvoted.
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u/Most-Background8535 Feb 11 '25
Thanks for the vote. Yup a lot of non fire folks. Stove pipe wildfire and you’ll see District Rangers and Forest Supervisors lose a grade or two. GS 14 to GS 12. I think it’s great idea.
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u/Ok-Device-9847 Feb 11 '25
That’s because most of this sub are either bots or keyboard warriors for Biden
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u/was_promised_welfare Feb 11 '25
My concern is that a DHS-Led national wildland fire service would ignore the ecological side of wildland fire. We are not just firefighters, but also land managers who deal in fire. Would managed use fires for resource benefit still happen in this agency? Or what about prescribed fires for ecological benefit, habitat improvement, or invasive species management?