r/Wildfire • u/Far_Rise_4664 • Feb 13 '25
US Forest Service Terminates 3400 positions...
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u/Inside-Vegetable1800 Feb 14 '25
How is it legal? Probationary employees still have to be fired for cause. Guess they’ll sue, not that it will matter.
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u/Pro_Crastinator76 Feb 14 '25
It's not. That's why they're laying about everyone's performance. Such a dirtbag move.
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u/Trisong2007 May 06 '25
It is legal when you are probationary. It doesn't really matter what reason they give you.
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u/Squart_um Feb 14 '25
Probationary employees are "at-will"... you are right that they need to be fired for cause, but just like in private sector jobs the burden of proof is on YOU not the people letting you go.
Which is why those fuckbags went immediately to proxies as there first step while they try to figure out how to fuck the rest of us
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u/GiftToTheUniverse Feb 14 '25
I believe everyone let go in this purge has a pretty good case. Even if somehow they were actually a "bad" employee the fact that they weren't let go BEFORE this nonsense shows that they were in position to be kept.
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u/Greedy_Ad_3765 Feb 16 '25
The letters have been stating the termination is on the merit of “poor performance”.
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u/Mediocre-Durian957 Feb 13 '25
Just got the call. Recreation/trails staff in R3
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u/EmilyAndFlowers Desk Jockey Feb 14 '25
If you are a probationary federal employee being told you’ve been “fired for underperforming”
1) Take your computer and PIV card home with you — do not turn it in if you haven’t already
2) 🚨 KEEP SUBMITTING YOUR TIMESHEETS AND DO NOT MARK ANY AS FINAL! 🚨
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u/Greedy_Ad_3765 Feb 13 '25
… are you probationary? Rec manager R5 and haven’t seen or heard from any staff yet..
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u/Mediocre-Durian957 Feb 14 '25
Yes I’m a permanent seasonal, so I guess I fall under that category.
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u/public-hodor Feb 14 '25
Have you worked less than two seasons as a perm seasonal? Or more than one year total?
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u/Mediocre-Durian957 Feb 14 '25
Yeah only 1 season. I did 2 seasons as a temp 1039. I loved this job, I’m devestated
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u/trinitytreetime Feb 14 '25
Sorry dude that sucks the union is filling a lawsuit so watch there website they might post info if anything comes from it.
NFFE.org
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u/Global_Ad_608 Feb 14 '25
Hang tough! I'm going through the same thing in R3 seasonal perm Rec. What a shame that this is how it's going down.
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u/Prestigious-Egg625 Feb 14 '25
Are they offering any sort of severance?
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u/Mediocre-Durian957 Feb 14 '25
Not that I’m aware of, we were all offered the deferred resignitation thing, but I didn’t want to take it, and the deadline passed. Haven’t gotten any official emails yet, only phone calls.
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u/chiddybangbangchiddy Feb 14 '25
Just so you don’t beat yourself. Heard yesterday from our region that probationary employees who took the deferred resignation and was then let go due to probationary status would be ineligible for the payments. So you didn’t miss anything
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u/Prestigious-Egg625 Feb 14 '25
I figured that would be their logic. I’m sorry this happened to you.
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u/Aromatic_Stock_3606 Mar 02 '25
if your a probationary employee the "buy out" that was offered to staff doesnt pertain to you. i asked this question. fucking bs
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u/spacedoutmachinist Feb 13 '25
Unfortunately I think the next step is them selling off our forests to the highest bidder.
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u/was_promised_welfare Feb 14 '25
Let's pool together our money & zyn rewards and buy it ourselves. Maybe we can get a couple acres
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u/pegasuspish Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
I've been sounding the alarm on this for awhile. If you look into what cryptobillionaires like musk want, and the reason why they outspent every other sector including big pharma and big oil in this election, they want to demolish the last gasp of democracy and replace it with a bunch of independent corporate owned fiefdoms beholden to no constitution and run by powerless serfs- but they need a lot of newly available land to do it without massive pushback. I know it sounds absolutely deranged, and it is, but it is real. Peter 'the guru' Thiel is a founding father and wrote the book on it, project 2025 bigwigs are on board, they're all using each orher. And they are pretty well poised to lay the groundwork right now, with half the population foaming at the mouth and cheering them on for owning the libs. It honestly doesn't even matter if they manage to make any of it a reality, it just shows how truly soulless these people are and the lengths they are willing to go to consolidate power.
Anyway. Bit of a fuckin tangent but selling off public lands is all part of the plan- they need to decimate the federal workforce and install loyalists to have a shot. There's plenty to be sickened by right here right now without even considering the insane philosophy/end goal.
Edit- look into the butterfly revolution if you don't like sleeping at night
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u/spacedoutmachinist Feb 14 '25
People really need to take this more seriously.
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u/pegasuspish Feb 14 '25
They own the military now dude. They own the drones.
Edit- I hate how this dysoptian goddamn nightmare makes me sound like a fucking crackpot
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u/spacedoutmachinist Feb 14 '25
If we see a drone strike on US soil against a US citizen, then this country is done. I believe it was a Japanese general during ww2 said there could never be an invasion of mainland US because there would be a gun behind every blade of grass. That kind of action would start an insurgency that the military would not be able to control. I still have a little hope the military might do the right thing. Only a little hope though.
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u/pegasuspish Feb 14 '25
'The revolution will be bloodless if the left allows it to be'
Hang onto it brother.
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u/spacedoutmachinist Feb 14 '25
It’s not a right or left war. We will see the start of a full on class war. With the cuts they will be doing to snap, Medicare and Medicaid, we will see a lot of people’s meema’s and poppa’s dies painfully. Not to mention kids going hungry. When I look into the future, it doesn’t look good. The best bit of solace to take is that all men die. No matter how much money they have, no matter how many drugs they take, they can’t outrun the clock.
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u/pegasuspish Feb 14 '25
Well that's the quiet part out loud alright. Theirs is coded language intended to divide. I respect where you're coming from, but I'm not comforted by the clock knowing how many innocent lives are in the metaphorical crosshairs between then and now. Wish I could be.
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u/spacedoutmachinist Feb 14 '25
I agree. We are definitely entering the find out stage. Like Mr Roger’s said, look for the helpers. Mutual aid and networks outside of their control are what will help us get through this.
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u/ComplexSympathy1097 Feb 18 '25
They didn’t lay off the entire forestry industry. They are laying off 3,400 of the 35,000 total employees. It could be as simple as firing because these jobs are a waste. No offense to anyone. This department is already struggling. I’m sure the millions they will save will be useful to helping out. Just a thought
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u/Future-Woodpecker355 Feb 14 '25
The whole country is about to look like Texas. Not a parcel of public land in sight.
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u/17_irons Feb 14 '25
Just heard an NPR segment an hour or so ago about a proposal for them to do just that… to help with the “housing shortage”. As if there an absurdly massive volume of untouched private land available. It’s not a fucking “land shortage”…
I’ll admit, I heard the intro and immediately switch the radio off because of what it did to my blood pressure, so I’ll see if I can find the story online and actually listen to it (and update here). But damn if this wasn’t crazy timing to see your comment.
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u/RBalicious360 Feb 14 '25
You have a link to that by chance?
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u/17_irons Feb 14 '25
Haven't been able to find it yet, but I found a couple slightly older articles (Oct & Nov 2024) articles which starts to address it.
And this
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u/Mysterious-Beets-36 Feb 16 '25
Umm..did anyone consider the shortage of water that accompanies the abundance of public lands in the Southwest? This is not a viable option for housing development.
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u/yepyepyep123456 Feb 14 '25
Yes this is very much the end game. I’m not sure people really appreciate this when they say, “My job’s safe. They’ll always need firefighters.”
The people behind Trump want to transfer federal lands to corporate ownership and contract the firefighting. You’ll still fight fire, but without things like benefits, unions, NFPA, OSHA, etc.
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u/OttoOtter Feb 13 '25
We might have some firefighters. But no one to support them.
And don't worry, Trumpers, the impending government shutdown will keep you from getting hired as well.
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u/Smokey_tha_bear9000 Feb 13 '25
Wait, we needed people to work at the cache?
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u/OttoOtter Feb 13 '25
Nope. Apparently, we don't need dispatchers, map makers, radio techs, fleet managers, contract specialists or anyone to call when President Musk screws up our benefits and pay, either.
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u/Logical-Associate729 Feb 14 '25
They'll hire contractors owned by Republican politicians.
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u/appsecSme Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
Or just buy contracts that nobody actually works, owned by Republican politicians and cronies. This is the fleecing of America.
To the downvoter: enjoy licking that Trusk boot. Has the price of eggs gone down yet?
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u/ResidentOverhead Feb 14 '25
Consolidating in one spot:
FS is firing/terminating, 3,400 employees in probationary status. That’s about 10% of the agency total staff. My math, so easily could be wrong.
Fire, LE, Bridge inspectors and meteorologists are exempt.
Fire appears to mean WFSE funded employees.
If employees in one of the above positions get a notice there is supposed to be a process to save their bacon.
It also appears to include veterans, etc… unless they are in one of the above positions.
Letters are expected to come out over the next handful of days.
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u/TwistRevolutionary19 Feb 14 '25
This post is fact. Spoke to the union today. The numbers are correct
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u/Hodunk_Princess Feb 14 '25
veterans etc? what would be the etc?
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u/ResidentOverhead Feb 14 '25
Even individuals hired under a special hiring authority are included, unless in an exempt position.
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u/Hodunk_Princess Feb 14 '25
so I’m in an exempt position and I’m on probation until june… but I didn’t get an email signifying me as being on probation like my other exempt coworkers did. I’m just really curious how this is gonna go.
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u/ResidentOverhead Feb 14 '25
Your probably fine, but lots of weird shit has been going down. So idk.
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u/Greedy_Ad_3765 Feb 16 '25
Have some dispatchers that were hired under certain different PD, who have been terminated despite being funded by WFSE
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u/Hikingcanuck92 Feb 14 '25
Looking forward to Dipshit Wakeup telling us all how this is a good thing.
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u/Realistic_Citron4486 Feb 13 '25
I called HR today to check on my probationary status. They said I’m all good. So any firefighters on probationary status are probably still good.
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u/Pro_Crastinator76 Feb 14 '25
For now. I'm guessing there's gonna be more cuts.
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u/Lulu_lu_who Feb 14 '25
Yup this.
I’d like to say it’ll be a few weeks before we see the next round, but tbh they’re moving so fast that any security could get yanked away next week.
It won’t be today tho.
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Feb 15 '25
You figure that they are going for VRA and Sched A next, so really nobody is exempt long term.
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u/themajor24 Feb 14 '25
Let's note that this is like layer 3 of "X hasn't been fired yet, so it probably won't affect the rest of X. Only Y and Z is fucked."
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u/maureenlo Feb 18 '25
I hope so, my kid is a probationary forestry technician on a R5 wildland crew (he did his first season last year but is probationary until April) and he's (and us) have been totally anxious
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u/LostConsequence3705 Feb 14 '25
Yep i found out today . GS-6 seasonal perm for Trails and rec in region 2. Ive been working militia the last 3 seasons debating making the switch to fire. Guess now i got my answer
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u/EmilyAndFlowers Desk Jockey Feb 14 '25
If you are a probationary federal employee being told you’ve been “fired for underperforming”
1) Take your computer and PIV card home with you — do not turn it in if you haven’t already
2) 🚨 KEEP SUBMITTING YOUR TIMESHEETS AND DO NOT MARK ANY AS FINAL! 🚨
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u/public-hodor Feb 14 '25
Did you have two seasons or less as a perm seasonal?
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u/LostConsequence3705 Feb 14 '25
Yes i only had 1 full season as the seasonal perm
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u/public-hodor Feb 14 '25
Sorry man, this is all such bs. I'm probably next. Just lost half my crew.
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u/Greedy_Ad_3765 Feb 16 '25
R5 rec manager - you are appreciated and valued and I’m sorry this is happening… you’re not alone in this outrage.
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u/ThreeBison Feb 14 '25
Maybe SpaceX is looking for employees? It was awarded a $38,000,000 contract yesterday. That is not a lie or exaggeration.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-ripped-spacex-gets-002815351.html
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u/sunsetpaychecks just a dude Feb 14 '25
🤣🤣🤣
Yep, the new administration definitely has the best interests of the American people at heart... 🙄
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Feb 13 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/JadeFox0 Feb 13 '25
I believe so. There were 6000 on the list and they supposedly exempted the public safety people. So if your buddy is exempted should be ok. Otherwise, maybe check in on them.
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u/eriec0aster 💸Broken and Unreadable 💸 Feb 14 '25
Crazy they exempt public safety but on this post there’s a wilderness ranger who got fired….
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u/Greedy_Ad_3765 Feb 16 '25
Most rec employees have an element of public health and safety tbh… all about how it’s specified in position description. Have some dispatchers fired because of the PD they were hired under
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u/eriec0aster 💸Broken and Unreadable 💸 Feb 16 '25
That is absolutely insanity to rationalize getting rid of dispatchers. Sheesh, this shit gets worse by the update.
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u/Acrobatic-Plum1364 Feb 14 '25
I already saw someone else say in a different post who only had two weeks left and they got the cut
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u/Prestigious-Egg625 Feb 14 '25
If they pass probation I don’t think it matters. The list sent to OPM was everyone on probation as of January 20th. My coworker came off probation January 27th, and still got an email about being on the probation list. So check in in your buddy.
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u/RogerLudwig Feb 14 '25
If that was the case they needed to respond when a request came out a week ago. One of my employees came off the 28th and didn’t get cut, but they responded to the department’s confirmation request.
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u/Prestigious-Egg625 Feb 14 '25
I’m hoping he did that then! I didn’t know there was a follow up email about it from the agency.
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u/lilghibli95 Feb 13 '25
Soooo what positions are gone? Im FS - timber
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u/Far_Rise_4664 Feb 13 '25
It appears it's for permanent, non-fire, non-law enforcement, non-meteorologist, non-bridge engineer employees that were still in their probationary period.
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u/SientoQueMerezcoMas Feb 14 '25
Primary fire only exempt? Or is secondary fire included?
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u/ResidentOverhead Feb 14 '25
Word on the street is all fire is exempt. WFSE funded appears to be how they are/did the filtering.
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u/Burnt_diary Feb 14 '25
That’s my big question also. Going from perm primary to perm secondary. Since I switched I believe I became probationary in my new role even tho I had a few years as a perm in primary
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u/lilghibli95 Feb 13 '25
Crazzzyyyyy. My District was just told to send up a list of all of our vacancies
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u/Smoke_snifferPM2-5 Feb 13 '25
Do you think this is a ploy, So when we lose our retention bonus. They will tell us we should be happy the great and noble Trump was able to convince president Musk, you keep your jobs.
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u/17_irons Feb 14 '25
Interesting take. Sincerely wish the best of luck to you guys, as a retired structural guy.
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Feb 15 '25
This is exactly what is going to happen. The folks with boners about what Sheehy has said and about the new agency on here, are idiots and have been lapping up the BS for years. They shepherded votes for the GOP in places like Montana thinking the Bros would be protected. Comical at best. They got played.
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u/llaurel_ Feb 14 '25
My buddy who is a wilderness ranger in R4 got fired about twenty minutes ago...
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u/Whiskey_Jack Wildland FF1 Feb 14 '25
Wilderness are like gs6 tops?? Thats where we are cutting budget? Shameful.
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u/llaurel_ Feb 14 '25
yeah, and a lot of the rec people who got laid off and never rehired were 3s, 4s, and 5s. Makes it hard for me to believe this is about saving money.
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u/Silver_Unit_8960 Feb 14 '25
It’s so fucked how many of those people were probably GS-9 or below, working on the ground with no influence over policy or priorities. Wow MAJOR savings guys. They were such a waste of money. /s
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u/RogerLudwig Feb 14 '25
Next they’ll get rid of NEPA, ESA, NHPA, Clean Water Act, Clean Ait Act, and then all the ologists. It’s coming.
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u/Murky-Suggestion8376 Desk Jockey Feb 14 '25
Fire employees are going to be ok. Please be mindful of the folks who are getting fired
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u/AK_Ogre Feb 14 '25
Instead of folks on probation, they should fire everyone who voted for rump. They wanted, this, they voted for this, they should own this
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u/cantbuymechristmas Feb 13 '25
elon musk the fraudster who claims the electric vehicle was to save the planet
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u/Spell_Chicken Feb 13 '25
no no, EVs were the vehicle for HIM to "save the planet" by destroying all nations to create the techistocracy.
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Feb 14 '25
Does anyone have any info on folks that are getting cut, but who already accepted the early buyout/deferred resignation?
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u/Misfit048 Feb 14 '25
I know of 1 probationary employee who had tried to take the fork. They were told they couldn't take the fork and were terminated today. (Non fire)
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u/Micrurusfulvius Feb 14 '25
FL Fish and Wildlife is in desperate need of land managers if people are looking for jobs
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u/R5hotshoot Feb 13 '25
Does anybody know whether termination was for fire probationary employees?
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u/Far_Rise_4664 Feb 13 '25
From the article:
"Warner Vanderheuel, president of the Forest Service Council, said employees that will remain with the agency include firefighters, law enforcement officers, meteorologists, and bridge inspectors."
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u/R5hotshoot Feb 13 '25
Yes I can read the article. However there are no firefighters for the USFS.
We were 0462 forestry technicians. Big difference.
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u/Far_Rise_4664 Feb 13 '25
If there are no firefighters in the Forest Service, then the firefighter exemption mentioned in the article wouldn't apply to the non-existent firefighters.
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u/Embarrassed_End_2443 Feb 13 '25
It says in the article that fire, LE and a couple other jobs are not part of these layoffs
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u/GrouchyAssignment696 Feb 13 '25
They will be cut the next round.
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Feb 14 '25
[deleted]
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u/GrouchyAssignment696 Feb 14 '25
You are very naive and gullible to believe anything musk or his mango minion says. Both are pathological liars.
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u/Webbey76 Feb 14 '25
Make America great again! You got what you voted for! Sad to tell you I told you so! Try and get jobs with the states, cities,counties or districts!
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u/Fun-Plankton8234 Feb 14 '25
A ton of grant money for the states is still tied up in the freeze also. Some states are gonna be struggling hard
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u/Illustrious_Union602 Feb 17 '25
It sucks, it really does. Do I feel bad, no. If any of these employees are qualified and worth a shit, they will find new jobs no problem.
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u/ReplacementNaive3408 Feb 23 '25
I've buckled my sest belt 50% of my coworkers are gone once we receive guidance next week. Two are proxies, another set quit, one went on medical retirement other quit because she wants to do homeschooling. That is almost 50% of our staff. That leaves two staff members who are permanent plus director. However one manager is still on probation, and the other employee is career conditional. If they choose to chop at the CC employee then we lost almost 60 percent of our team in a span of a week in DOD. If they feel 60% isn't enough, then next would be the RIFS. The manager on probation will prob have to take a step down in a position where the probationary employee left. That leaves me and another permanent employee and the director to rif around or cut.
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u/thinkfastsolu1 Jul 15 '25
And then they hire a ton more for fire season… lol Makes no sense. There is a damn reason we need lots of rangers(and obviously other usfs workers) And even at full budgeted cap, we still need more.
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u/SubstantialDress1053 Feb 13 '25
Crazy. As I’m very well sure there’s a lot of jobs that aren’t technically necessary, 3400 seems big.
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u/PatienceCurrent8479 Feb 13 '25
Basically it's the probationary RIF. You're seeing it across all agencies today and tomorrow. Something like 80% of all probation status positions got RIF notices today.
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 Feb 13 '25
This ISN’T an RIF. That’s a long legal process. This is an illegal mass firing.
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u/SubstantialDress1053 Feb 13 '25
That’s wild. I’m intrigued as to how this will all shake out in the end
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u/mickdewgul Feb 13 '25
What is RIF?
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u/PatienceCurrent8479 Feb 13 '25
Reduction In Force. Aka involuntary separation/ lay off.
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u/Orcacub Feb 14 '25
Real RIFs have rules like “bump and retreat” rights for employees in the same classification. Seniority and performance Eval’s , awards, come into play as well. It’s a process. This current purge is not that process. The probationary folks can get axed without an actual RIF process. That’s why they are doing it first- it can be done fast, and with minimal process.
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u/FlyingPinkUnicorns Feb 13 '25
Every single one of those jobs is technically necessary. Do you think the USFS has money to throw around on random hires?
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u/SubstantialDress1053 Feb 13 '25
I more so mean that, loosing 1 position in a station there’s still enough hands there to pick up that slack. I know the roles are all necessary. Labor speaking some could be cut but not all they are wanting to. And also at what cost. I’m not against you here.
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u/FlyingPinkUnicorns Feb 13 '25
I am really feeling for all the folks being asked to do more with less. Again. And again and again. And now to an unprecedented degree.
All while being paid a pittance and treated like garbage by politicians.
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u/Smoke_snifferPM2-5 Feb 13 '25
I read somewhere else it was 2400. Maybe it was from last October.https://rvbusiness.com/forest-service-losing-2400-jobs-campgrounds-affected/
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u/SubstantialDress1053 Feb 13 '25
Still seems pretty significant. All kinda crazy, but hey as long as we cut the countries deficit right? SMH haha
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Feb 15 '25
When you say jobs aren’t necessary, you prove you are one of the lemmings who voted for this and have the worldview of whatever you learned up to 12th grade and in the 3 square miles you have occupied your entire life.
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u/SubstantialDress1053 Feb 15 '25
Oh I can assure you that your far from the truth. I’m sorry I may have insulted or hurt your feelings but no. When I say unnecessary I mean in terms of labor. I’ve worked some of the hardest jobs on the planet and understand labor costs to actual production out come. To dumb things down a bit “sometimes you don’t need 2 people to take out 1 trash can” Now that being said. Could some of these folks been jockeyed around to a position that is severely behind in labor force and could use the help? Absolutely. So I’m not justifying the major job loss of all these people at all. But as someone who has busted their ass and gone through some very intense situations with very limited resources. Yes I will say maybe their is areas that don’t need so many people. As I’ve said though completely letting them go before trying to find alternative duties is kind of disappointing.
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Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25
Wow, thanks for proving my point on education limitations, with the above post. Don’t worry though, DOGE is coming for your stuff next.
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u/freakytzatziki666 Feb 14 '25
Just got a call from my district ranger, was let go as a wilderness ranger in R5