r/Wildfire • u/CBSnews • Jul 15 '25
News (General) National Park Service's handling of wildfire that destroyed historic Grand Canyon Lodge questioned
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grand-canyon-lodge-wildfire-burned-for-days-before-it-spread/50
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
Gonna be so much armchair quarterbacking on firefighting and forecasting weather events. Bunch of walking, talking Dunning-Kruger charts, happily backing clown political theater from a clown governor.
I keep getting heavily downvoted for pointing out that while the loss is tragic, the lodge is not the reason that people flock to the Grand Canyon from all over the world.
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u/Helpinmontana Jul 16 '25
Yeah but you gotta be asking the important questions, why did they put the lodge there in the first place, huh?Â
Worth investigating.Â
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u/Remote_Fondant1222 Jul 16 '25
Members of Congress and the governor of Arizona are already calling for investigations and the public is outraged over the loss of the lodge. Â The arm chair quarter backing is going to be bad on this oneÂ
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u/violetpumpkins Jul 16 '25
Maybe... just maybe... it was a bad idea to fire and terrorize federal employees responsible for safety of lives and property?
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u/blowjobsforme Jul 17 '25
I'm going to say this. I worked at RMNP during the 2022 East Troublesome fire that burned their historic Onahu lodge.
Prior to the blow up that took the west side of the park the park housing was absolutely overgrown with lodgepole regen. In the week before the blowup with a plume on the horizon they let the trail crew, after days of asking prep around the housing. While this was going on there were folks on site to determine that nothing over 6" diameter was cut.
The entire process was slow and took a half day before all were evacuated with winds picking up and fire only two miles away.
It was only at this time that the park allowed the IMT in to do structure assessments and try to set up as they could. Additionally, multiple parties were in the backcountry and had trailheads burn over.
I think parks look down on interagency operators, IMTs and fire management in general and the Park Historians who think FireWise isn't part of a National Park landscape will continue to sacrifice assets.
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u/FFTFU Jul 17 '25
âFirewiseâ is policy in RM-18, as are Risk Assessments (see below). If you were on the west side the night fire blew through the valley you would know what little help any prep would have done.
3.6 Defensible Space The NPS has adopted the International Code Council's (ICC's) International Urban-Wildland Interface Code (see sections 603 and 604) for descriptions of defensible space and maintenance requirements for structures in wildland urban interface.
3.11 Wildland Fire Risk Assessments (Structures) The wildfire risk assessment is a consistent method that has been applied to NPS units nationwide regardless of variations in climate, fuels, and topography. The goals for the assessment data collection are to: ⢠Create a complete inventory of facilities within NPS unit boundaries. ⢠Produce a rating for facilities within NPS unit boundaries that characterizes the facility's risk of ignition during a wildland fire. ⢠Facilitate fuel treatment planning and tracking, specifically with regard to the treatment of defensible space around NPS facilities and communities/developed areas. ⢠Optional: Quantify the effort (in person hours) required to defend facilities within an NPS unit in the event of a wildland fire by recommending tactics that could be implemented during an incident.
Tired of all the BS arm chair quarterbacking. Good luck when you have to make real life decisions.
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u/jamesacorrea Jul 30 '25
Was this just a super fast fire? I'm surprised they didn't wrap it with structure wrap, which seems to be the normal play.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
I think it was a mistake because it was during peak fire season with strong winds in the forecast. I fully believe in managing fires for fuels reduction is the right thing to do but there is a time and place. Spring when fire intensity is low or at the end of summer when the conditions wonât allow for a missive devastating fire.
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u/Interesting_Local_70 Jul 15 '25
Not sure what you mean exactly with âpeak fire season,â but July and August post-monsoon are the best times to manage fire in the Southwest. Sometimes shit happens.
The real issue I see is failure to have the facilities protected adequately. The north rim has managed fires all the time. There are literally only a few values at risk.
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u/Tricky_South Jul 16 '25
In theory, but the reality is that monsoon season hasnât started yet in northern AZ. There were red flag conditions as well as drought. Every fuel from grass to heavy logs are bone dry. This is peak fire season. Thatâs why there are a bunch of wildfires all over the West right now. These guys are truly idiots with their noses in a computer model instead of observing actual conditions.
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u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah WFM Nerd Jul 15 '25
It is impossible to predict wind events weeks in advance. Have you ever managed a fire yourself? Do you know what goes into the decision-making process on them?
On my last managed fire, I did a full PMS 236 Complexity Analysis, multiple WFDSS runs over several months in coordination with our Regional Fire Planner, set up a remote camera updating every hour with both visible and IR imaging, had daily meetings with the FMO, Duty Officer, and Agency Administrator, and adjusted strategies based on when the fire hit my various Management Action Points.
A managed fire isn't just the IC going "oh we think it's a good time to do this!" It's a conscious decision to keep fire on the landscape for weeks/months, and there is a CONSTANT re-evaluation process going on between the IC, AA, FMO, DO, etc., and if conditions change, the management strategy can totally change from management to full suppression if need be.
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u/neagrosk Jul 16 '25
While that's true there could have still been an error of the part of management in understanding the growth potential of the fire. No way to tell this early on in but mistakes can and do happen so while we should not needlessly put blame on people yet, we also shouldn't just say there were no errors in judgment just yet.
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u/ManOfDiscovery Jul 16 '25
At the end of the day with wind events like this, shit happens. It's not as if fires jumping containment is particularly remarkable or ill-considered if overhead is even half competent. It happens somewhere every year.
Sounds to me like what did them in was the burn over of the water treatment plant and subsequent release of chlorine gas that forced the pull back of suppression and structure protection resources.
I'm extremely curious what their hazmat storage looked like bc you'd think something like chlorine gas should've been nothing short of bombproofed in fire country.
Either the fire behavior was so unprecedented we can all excuse it to an act of god, or park management was fucking up their hazmat storage long before this fire was even a glint in the sky.
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u/Tricky_South Jul 16 '25
Yes, I have managed a fire and I do know what should go into the decision making process. There had been red flag conditions in the days leading up to the lightning strike. The red flag conditions were predicted to continue. Only an idiot would expect to manage a fire in red flag conditions. Add to that the uniqueness of that forest. An elevated plateau with forest surrounded by desert on all sides. Thereâs even history of the Park Service trying to manage lightning strikes during red flag conditions and losing control, the Warm Fire and Bridger Fire to name two. Their decision making was flawed. They deserve all the scrutiny so, at the very least, the mistakes arenât repeated.
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u/maddeningcrowds Desk Jockey Jul 16 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
My guy it doesnât take a rocket scientist to know that letting a fire burn during the time of the year with the most severe fire weather potential with pretty much zero structure defense measures in place is retarded. A first year seasonal would know to put this thing out asap, thereâs no need for these NPS fire âmanagersâ to intellectualize there way out of this.
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u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah WFM Nerd Jul 17 '25
I think you missed the part where I said the IC interacts with the FMO and Duty Officer. Idk where you work, but where I am, there are some serious primary firefighter quals and experience needed to be either one of those things.
I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the fire managers involved quite likely have more experience than you, me, or any first year seasonal.
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u/YesterdayOld4860 Jul 15 '25
Funny. It seems every season is becoming conducive to fire. My region has spring fires, summer fires, and fall fires. Weâre getting a reprieve right now because weâve been hammered with storm. Itâs only a couple weeks though.Â
My leads are expecting to bring seasonal fire staff back on for staffing late summer and early fall since itâll kick back up again.Â
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Nothing will happen There will be no accountability There Park Manager will more than likely end up being promoted up and out to a better job. There is no accountability whatsoever for land managers who make these mistakes. This happens multiple times every fire season. This one just happens to be high profile
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u/was_promised_welfare Jul 15 '25
Might get dragged for asking, but did they make a mistake? I don't know what it looks like on the ground there, but I do know how we talk about the problem with 100%full suppression and how it leads to fuel buildup over time. Which is it? Do we want full suppression or not?
Again, I don't know the conditions of this specific fire. Maybe it was a bad decision given the weather forecast, fuel, topography, etc.
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u/Student_Whole Jul 16 '25
Let it burn is great when you donât have high value historic structures nearby with loads of low moisture fuel around. Â If you want to roll the dice then at least have a rich solid foam and sprinkler setup with big water supply to protect the structure. Â They were running on hopes and prayersÂ
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
So you'd prefer to go to jail or get fired because you lost a burn? It's not just the inevitable nature of putting fire on the ground amidst uncontrollable variables?
That's...fucking idiotic.
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u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25
I think itâs a super slippery slope to âhold people accountableâ for decisions like this if the decision made sense given the conditions at the time (which I assume it did since the decision maker had a lot more information than we do here). If we penalize everyone for when something goes wrong itâs going to hamper the decision making process. Whatâs next? You canât do burn ops because if you lose it, youâre going to get fired or sued? People need to be covered if the decision was made within reasonable parameters.
I think there should be a deep dive into this situation, but I dislike every one immediately calling for heads on pikes.
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
Yeah, it's just ill-informed idiots playing at NPS expert and advocate. Two weeks ago they couldn't have told you whether or not that lodge existed, and they certainly couldn't be bothered to call their representatives to demand adequate funding for the agency.
'Member just last year when that piece of shit sheriff in John Day tried to railroad Rick Snodgrass? I do, and everyone I work with sure does. Used to be everyone wanted the experience and the responsibility. Now it's who draws short straw to bethe fall guy if things go tits up.
There will be a clownish amount of AAR on this... it's the park service. There's gonna be nerds researching every aspect of this for decades. Accountability will be had.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Two different things and I do not agree with that Sheriff. All Iâm saying is that one small fire crew could have prevented all those buildings from burning. It would have been prudent to put that fire out in the peak of fire season. Manage the fires that start naturally later in the season when cool weather and moisture is in the forecast. I just hate to see so many buildings especially historic ones like that burn when that fire could have easily been prevented with a minimal amount of effort
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u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25
Do you have all the information about the fuel moisture levels, weather forecasts, available resources, etc? Because the person that made the call did. The issue is youâre jumping straight to calling it a bad decision when you donât have all the information and you have the benefit of hindsight. No one has an issue with doing an investigation, we have issues with jumping to conclusions.
If it turns out they did make a call that wasnât consistent with the information at the time, then you can lead the mob. Until then, quit being an armchair quarterback.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
I did have all the information. Itâs not a hard decision. When the fire is small and easy to catch, put it out. Or things like this will happen. Iâve seen this numerous times in my 20 career as a boots on the ground firefighter. Iâve had opportunities to catch small fires that turned into big, expensive campaign fires because someone could make a decision. Itâs not that difficult to make the connection that letting a fire go in peak fire season with forecasted wind is a bad idea. I donât really care as much because it was NPS buildings that burned but try explaining to a private person why their house burned when the fire was only smoldering at an acre for 3 days??
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u/Interesting_Local_70 Jul 15 '25
If you were such an experienced firefighter, youâd know mid-July is not peak fire season in AZ. Itâs monsoon season. Quit larping.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
What was this years precip todate for monsoon season compared to the last 5 years?
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u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25
Well now no one can take you seriously if youâre claiming you had all the same information as the people that were actually there. I hope NPS keeps you on speed dial since youâre obviously omniscient.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
The information is available to anyone, we brief on it every day. All the fire weather, fuel moisture, IRC, drought advisories, red flag warnings. Upcoming wind events. Potential for large fires. There are full fire weather/fire potential briefings from NOAA uploaded to YouTube daily.
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
Why didn't you speak up and tell them they were going to lose it? Sounds like you had it all figured out.
What quals do you hold? That's the third time I've asked...
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u/FFTFU Jul 17 '25
If you have all the information I guess you donât need educated on the fire history of the North Rim and managing fire this way for a long time. I guess you donât need educated on the mission and values of the NPS. I also assume you know that firefighter and public safety are also the number one priority on any fire and that priority was met under extreme circumstances. I also hope you are never charged with making any decision especially one that could potentially have a negative outcome. The folks making decisions have a lot of experience and give a shit about the chunk of dirt they are/were charged with managing. Have some grace on you âbrothers and sistersâ and understand they are dealing with the outcome of the decision they made and itâs not easy.
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
All Iâm saying is that one small fire crew could have prevented all those buildings from burning.
A whole bunch of large fire crews, in fact, failed to prevent it from burning, as evidenced by this very goddamn conversation. Once again, without even being there or knowing who was working it, I can offer the utmost assurances that everyone engaged did not want the lodge to burn down. No one wants to chalk up an L.
What quals do you hold? What's your background in fire ecology? Go on, tell us about some of the rippers you ICed.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
That fire smoldered at 2.5 acres for 3 days and nothing was done. Thatâs why we are having this conversation. It WAS easily catchable for 3 days.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Then the wind picked. In peak fire season. All Iâm saying is that fire could have been easily caught and now itâs a multimillion dollar campaign fire that destroyed a lot of property. And here we all are. Arguing about it.
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u/Main_Bother_1027 Jul 15 '25
SW peak fire season is May/June. WTF are you talking about?
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Then why did this fire go big? The monsoons should have stopped it? Why didnât they? Why did it make a 4000 acre run in one day? The fuck you talking about?? I understand that historically it is monsoon season, and that Southern Arizona got above average rainfall in June. So why did this fire go big?
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u/FFTFU Jul 15 '25
Lost a burn? Are you implying thatâs what happened?
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
No, I am saying shit happens, and to try to blame people after the fact is going to crucify the leaders of which we are in dire need, those who are proactive and accept an inherent level of risk in order to effectively manage the land.
I assure you, no one wrapped up in whatever shitshow was occurring down there wanted any of this.
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u/FFTFU Jul 15 '25
I agree, I was trying to interpret your comment thanks for the clarification. I keep seeing âcontrolled burnâ being used to describe this wildfire.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
I did not say intentionally put fire on the ground. Calm down Bud. Natural starts can be managed for benefit when itâs not peak fire season.
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u/doogiehiesermd Jul 15 '25
Natural starts occur in peak fire season for that very reason, its the natural time for fire....
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Can be managed vs full suppression
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u/doogiehiesermd Jul 15 '25
It was "Managed for Resource Benefit" but the 20 to 40 mph wind gusts decided it was going to blow over their containment lines they had in place
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u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25
Do you seriously not remember just last year when that piece of shit Todd McKinley arrested Rick Snodgrass? What quals do you hold?
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
End result is there was needless loss of historical buildings when the fire could have been easily caught. Justify it however you want
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u/Main_Bother_1027 Jul 15 '25
So, you're in a car accident. You didn't cause the accident. But you are totally to blame because you dared to be on the road that day.
That's how stupid you sound. Just thought I'd clarify.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
So youâre saying it was better to let all those buildings burn, expose hundreds of firefighters to unnecessary risk and have a multi million dollar campaign fire sucking up all those resources than it would have been to suppress that fire at 2 acres????
Thatâs how stupid you sound
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u/Tricky_South Jul 16 '25
They tried to manage a fire in July during red flag conditions. In your analogy, they did, in fact, cause the accident.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
But I wasnât in a car accident
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u/Main_Bother_1027 Jul 15 '25
Yep, brain is smooth as glass.
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u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25
Calm down sweetheart. Iâm sure you crushed the pack test. Youâre fine
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u/Chief_Tom_schultz Jul 15 '25
I would never have let this happen! Never!