National Park Service's handling of wildfire that destroyed historic Grand Canyon Lodge questioned

[u/CBSnews]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grand-canyon-lodge-wildfire-burned-for-days-before-it-spread/

[u/Lucky_Double_8301]

I think it was a mistake because it was during peak fire season with strong winds in the forecast. I fully believe in managing fires for fuels reduction is the right thing to do but there is a time and place. Spring when fire intensity is low or at the end of summer when the conditions won’t allow for a missive devastating fire.

[u/Interesting_Local_70 → u/Lucky_Double_8301]

Not sure what you mean exactly with “peak fire season,” but July and August post-monsoon are the best times to manage fire in the Southwest. Sometimes shit happens.

The real issue I see is failure to have the facilities protected adequately. The north rim has managed fires all the time. There are literally only a few values at risk.

[u/Tricky_South → u/Interesting_Local_70]

In theory, but the reality is that monsoon season hasn’t started yet in northern AZ. There were red flag conditions as well as drought. Every fuel from grass to heavy logs are bone dry. This is peak fire season. That’s why there are a bunch of wildfires all over the West right now. These guys are truly idiots with their noses in a computer model instead of observing actual conditions.

[u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah → u/Lucky_Double_8301]

It is impossible to predict wind events weeks in advance. Have you ever managed a fire yourself? Do you know what goes into the decision-making process on them?

On my last managed fire, I did a full PMS 236 Complexity Analysis, multiple WFDSS runs over several months in coordination with our Regional Fire Planner, set up a remote camera updating every hour with both visible and IR imaging, had daily meetings with the FMO, Duty Officer, and Agency Administrator, and adjusted strategies based on when the fire hit my various Management Action Points.

A managed fire isn't just the IC going "oh we think it's a good time to do this!" It's a conscious decision to keep fire on the landscape for weeks/months, and there is a CONSTANT re-evaluation process going on between the IC, AA, FMO, DO, etc., and if conditions change, the management strategy can totally change from management to full suppression if need be.

[u/chowypow → u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah]

Nerd alert wee woo

[u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah → u/chowypow]

O yah 🤓🤓🤓

[u/meloncholy_vendor → u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah]

This guy fires

[u/neagrosk → u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah]

While that's true there could have still been an error of the part of management in understanding the growth potential of the fire. No way to tell this early on in but mistakes can and do happen so while we should not needlessly put blame on people yet, we also shouldn't just say there were no errors in judgment just yet.

[u/ManOfDiscovery → u/neagrosk]

At the end of the day with wind events like this, shit happens. It's not as if fires jumping containment is particularly remarkable or ill-considered if overhead is even half competent. It happens somewhere every year.

Sounds to me like what did them in was the burn over of the water treatment plant and subsequent release of chlorine gas that forced the pull back of suppression and structure protection resources.

I'm extremely curious what their hazmat storage looked like bc you'd think something like chlorine gas should've been nothing short of bombproofed in fire country.

Either the fire behavior was so unprecedented we can all excuse it to an act of god, or park management was fucking up their hazmat storage long before this fire was even a glint in the sky.

[u/Tricky_South → u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah]

Yes, I have managed a fire and I do know what should go into the decision making process. There had been red flag conditions in the days leading up to the lightning strike. The red flag conditions were predicted to continue. Only an idiot would expect to manage a fire in red flag conditions. Add to that the uniqueness of that forest. An elevated plateau with forest surrounded by desert on all sides. There’s even history of the Park Service trying to manage lightning strikes during red flag conditions and losing control, the Warm Fire and Bridger Fire to name two. Their decision making was flawed. They deserve all the scrutiny so, at the very least, the mistakes aren’t repeated.

[u/maddeningcrowds → u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah]

My guy it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that letting a fire burn during the time of the year with the most severe fire weather potential with pretty much zero structure defense measures in place is retarded. A first year seasonal would know to put this thing out asap, there’s no need for these NPS fire “managers” to intellectualize there way out of this.

[u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah → u/maddeningcrowds]

I think you missed the part where I said the IC interacts with the FMO and Duty Officer. Idk where you work, but where I am, there are some serious primary firefighter quals and experience needed to be either one of those things.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the fire managers involved quite likely have more experience than you, me, or any first year seasonal.

[u/YesterdayOld4860 → u/Lucky_Double_8301]

Funny. It seems every season is becoming conducive to fire. My region has spring fires, summer fires, and fall fires. We’re getting a reprieve right now because we’ve been hammered with storm. It’s only a couple weeks though. 

My leads are expecting to bring seasonal fire staff back on for staffing late summer and early fall since it’ll kick back up again.