r/Wildfire • u/CBSnews • Jul 15 '25

News (General) National Park Service's handling of wildfire that destroyed historic Grand Canyon Lodge questioned

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grand-canyon-lodge-wildfire-burned-for-days-before-it-spread/
74 Upvotes

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-30

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Nothing will happen There will be no accountability There Park Manager will more than likely end up being promoted up and out to a better job. There is no accountability whatsoever for land managers who make these mistakes. This happens multiple times every fire season. This one just happens to be high profile

12

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

So you'd prefer to go to jail or get fired because you lost a burn? It's not just the inevitable nature of putting fire on the ground amidst uncontrollable variables?

That's...fucking idiotic.

23

u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25

I think it’s a super slippery slope to “hold people accountable” for decisions like this if the decision made sense given the conditions at the time (which I assume it did since the decision maker had a lot more information than we do here). If we penalize everyone for when something goes wrong it’s going to hamper the decision making process. What’s next? You can’t do burn ops because if you lose it, you’re going to get fired or sued? People need to be covered if the decision was made within reasonable parameters.

I think there should be a deep dive into this situation, but I dislike every one immediately calling for heads on pikes.

17

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

Yeah, it's just ill-informed idiots playing at NPS expert and advocate. Two weeks ago they couldn't have told you whether or not that lodge existed, and they certainly couldn't be bothered to call their representatives to demand adequate funding for the agency.

'Member just last year when that piece of shit sheriff in John Day tried to railroad Rick Snodgrass? I do, and everyone I work with sure does. Used to be everyone wanted the experience and the responsibility. Now it's who draws short straw to bethe fall guy if things go tits up.

There will be a clownish amount of AAR on this... it's the park service. There's gonna be nerds researching every aspect of this for decades. Accountability will be had.

-11

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Two different things and I do not agree with that Sheriff. All I’m saying is that one small fire crew could have prevented all those buildings from burning. It would have been prudent to put that fire out in the peak of fire season. Manage the fires that start naturally later in the season when cool weather and moisture is in the forecast. I just hate to see so many buildings especially historic ones like that burn when that fire could have easily been prevented with a minimal amount of effort

9

u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25

Do you have all the information about the fuel moisture levels, weather forecasts, available resources, etc? Because the person that made the call did. The issue is you’re jumping straight to calling it a bad decision when you don’t have all the information and you have the benefit of hindsight. No one has an issue with doing an investigation, we have issues with jumping to conclusions.

If it turns out they did make a call that wasn’t consistent with the information at the time, then you can lead the mob. Until then, quit being an armchair quarterback.

-4

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

I did have all the information. It’s not a hard decision. When the fire is small and easy to catch, put it out. Or things like this will happen. I’ve seen this numerous times in my 20 career as a boots on the ground firefighter. I’ve had opportunities to catch small fires that turned into big, expensive campaign fires because someone could make a decision. It’s not that difficult to make the connection that letting a fire go in peak fire season with forecasted wind is a bad idea. I don’t really care as much because it was NPS buildings that burned but try explaining to a private person why their house burned when the fire was only smoldering at an acre for 3 days??

13

u/Interesting_Local_70 Jul 15 '25

If you were such an experienced firefighter, you’d know mid-July is not peak fire season in AZ. It’s monsoon season. Quit larping.

1

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Then explain why this fire went big????

1

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

What was this years precip todate for monsoon season compared to the last 5 years?

10

u/No_Mind3009 Jul 15 '25

Well now no one can take you seriously if you’re claiming you had all the same information as the people that were actually there. I hope NPS keeps you on speed dial since you’re obviously omniscient.

1

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

The information is available to anyone, we brief on it every day. All the fire weather, fuel moisture, IRC, drought advisories, red flag warnings. Upcoming wind events. Potential for large fires. There are full fire weather/fire potential briefings from NOAA uploaded to YouTube daily.

6

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

Why didn't you speak up and tell them they were going to lose it? Sounds like you had it all figured out.

What quals do you hold? That's the third time I've asked...

0

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 16 '25

Ask one more time. Maybe I’ll tell you

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1

u/FFTFU Jul 17 '25

If you have all the information I guess you don’t need educated on the fire history of the North Rim and managing fire this way for a long time. I guess you don’t need educated on the mission and values of the NPS. I also assume you know that firefighter and public safety are also the number one priority on any fire and that priority was met under extreme circumstances. I also hope you are never charged with making any decision especially one that could potentially have a negative outcome. The folks making decisions have a lot of experience and give a shit about the chunk of dirt they are/were charged with managing. Have some grace on you “brothers and sisters” and understand they are dealing with the outcome of the decision they made and it’s not easy.

8

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

All I’m saying is that one small fire crew could have prevented all those buildings from burning.

A whole bunch of large fire crews, in fact, failed to prevent it from burning, as evidenced by this very goddamn conversation. Once again, without even being there or knowing who was working it, I can offer the utmost assurances that everyone engaged did not want the lodge to burn down. No one wants to chalk up an L.

What quals do you hold? What's your background in fire ecology? Go on, tell us about some of the rippers you ICed.

1

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

That fire smoldered at 2.5 acres for 3 days and nothing was done. That’s why we are having this conversation. It WAS easily catchable for 3 days.

-3

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Then the wind picked. In peak fire season. All I’m saying is that fire could have been easily caught and now it’s a multimillion dollar campaign fire that destroyed a lot of property. And here we all are. Arguing about it.

7

u/Main_Bother_1027 Jul 15 '25

SW peak fire season is May/June. WTF are you talking about?

0

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Then why did this fire go big? The monsoons should have stopped it? Why didn’t they? Why did it make a 4000 acre run in one day? The fuck you talking about?? I understand that historically it is monsoon season, and that Southern Arizona got above average rainfall in June. So why did this fire go big?

5

u/Main_Bother_1027 Jul 15 '25

Unseasonably dry conditions doesn't mean it's "peak season", ya smooth brain.

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2

u/FFTFU Jul 15 '25

Lost a burn? Are you implying that’s what happened?

7

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

No, I am saying shit happens, and to try to blame people after the fact is going to crucify the leaders of which we are in dire need, those who are proactive and accept an inherent level of risk in order to effectively manage the land.

I assure you, no one wrapped up in whatever shitshow was occurring down there wanted any of this.

2

u/FFTFU Jul 15 '25

I agree, I was trying to interpret your comment thanks for the clarification. I keep seeing “controlled burn” being used to describe this wildfire.

-6

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

I did not say intentionally put fire on the ground. Calm down Bud. Natural starts can be managed for benefit when it’s not peak fire season.

7

u/doogiehiesermd Jul 15 '25

Natural starts occur in peak fire season for that very reason, its the natural time for fire....

-3

u/Lucky_Double_8301 Jul 15 '25

Can be managed vs full suppression

4

u/doogiehiesermd Jul 15 '25

It was "Managed for Resource Benefit" but the 20 to 40 mph wind gusts decided it was going to blow over their containment lines they had in place

7

u/larry_flarry Jul 15 '25

Do you seriously not remember just last year when that piece of shit Todd McKinley arrested Rick Snodgrass? What quals do you hold?