r/Wildfire Wildland FF2 1d ago

Wildland Firefighter Mask lawsuit

Is there talk about a lawsuit over smoke masks?

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8Bpfmna/

16 Upvotes

35 comments sorted by

43

u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah WFM Nerd 1d ago

I mean, the video does make it sound like there's at least talks occurring about gathering information to see if there is a legal basis for a lawsuit.

I'd be fine wearing certain wildland-specific respirators during certain activities like holding/monitoring, but I have a feeling if this goes through it'll lead to yet another knee-jerk USFS reaction and they'll mandate cheap and shitty respirators with high levels of breath restriction to be worn at all times, even when cutting line and burning out.

15

u/Infamous_Fox_6623 1d ago

The CleanSpace CST ultra would be a good option. It’s an on demand positive pressure PAPR system that weighs less than 1lb. Only available in AUS tho.

3

u/electricdirtboy 1d ago

lol just googled the respirator, looks cool as hell tho ima feel like ripley from alien while I judge if the tree is falling towards me with a foggy respirator

5

u/Infamous_Fox_6623 1d ago

They primarily make a half face! So nothing to fog up and you can clearly see the snag that’s about to unalive you

-28

u/Buzz407 1d ago

Wet bandana has worked for decades. Making firefighters carry more weight is a detriment to safety. Might be worth packing one of those baby scuba bottles the size of a coke bottle, I know a few times I wished I had one. Still, I saw some vollies try to fight a small forest fire in full battle rattle, one almost died from heat exhaustion within 45 minutes. Another crew a few counties over did lose 2 people that way.

The people fighting the fires should be the ones deciding what to take on a fire.

17

u/BungHolio4206969 1d ago

No one uses a wet bandana. Moreover they’re less effective when you wet them. Are you dumb or something?

-10

u/Buzz407 1d ago edited 1d ago

Stupid? Probably. 25 years ago it was still very much done. Seemed to work fine to keep the particulates out. I can get downvoted to oblivion but it doesn't make it any less true.

11

u/RadioFreeCascadia 1d ago

Tons of folks have died of cancer due to the smoke. We literally did not track the deaths or health impacts until like last year.

Just because it “seemed to work fine” in the moment =\= it actually worked.

2

u/Buzz407 1d ago

Fair enough. I didn't even know. Hell most of us smoked too.

2

u/voroid 1d ago

Dawg objectively you are wrong. Wet bandana is MARGINALLY better than wearing nothing. You’re very confidently wrong hahahaha.

-1

u/Buzz407 1d ago edited 1d ago

That happens I reckon.  Hey, ya can point and make fun all you want but I was doing this job when most of you were in diapers.  When I left, the "state of knowledge and tech" is what it was.  I came out the other side intact.

I'm just saying it is what we did and it enhanced comfort dramatically.  If you have better, use better.  

Wet vs dry was an argument back in the day. We didn't do scientific testing. Wet seemed to grab onto the crap in the air better in exchange for being harder to breathe through. Difference was meaningful in the hardwoods. Do what works for you.

-1

u/voroid 1d ago

Yeah you’re right. I get where you’re coming from.

1

u/Hard_Rock_Hallelujah WFM Nerd 1h ago

Well, I can say that I do fight fire, and I do have a Sundström Wildland respirator in my pack.

It weighs maybe 2lbs.

I'll weigh it tomorrow for an accurate weight, but seriously it adds basically nothing to my line gear. A pack of wet wipes weighs more. With both the particulate filter and chemical filter in place, I can't even smell smoke, and it really doesn't restrict my breathing that much.

I wouldn't want to wear it right next to open flame or when hiking hard, but for holding and light hiking it's been great.

15

u/KeepItDory 1d ago

Masks are for ICE

1

u/One-Initiative-8902 Wildland FF2 14h ago edited 14h ago

Wear Hot Shield HS-2 Wildland Firefighter Face Mask with N95 inserts. Works out well. It's not exactly this one. It's very similar mine. Have like clips so if I get too hot Or wanna get high off of Carboxyhemoglobin than I can just unclip one side and it just dangles could be a good option.

1

u/NoSuddenMoves 1d ago

Ya'll really want to burn out and cut line in respirators?

25

u/RadioFreeCascadia 1d ago

I want to not die of cancer a few years after retiring when there are tools we can use to mitigate or eliminate the risk.

Structure guys bitched and moaned when first told they needed to wear SCBAs because it would make it harder to work but they adapted bc the alternative is burying your buddies early.

3

u/Different_Ad_931 1d ago

Yeah but they are only going in for 45mins at a time and not walking miles over the course of an assignment. If they don’t end up making it a permanent. Have to have it everywhere you go thing then maybe. But otherwise it’s going to make the job harder than it is already or needs to be at all.

4

u/RadioFreeCascadia 1d ago

I mean, personal experience I’ve rarely had to hike for long hours in the smoke but I have had to hold/mop up/monitor in heavy smoke where a respirator (especially a PAPR design like DHS prototyped) wouldn’t be horrible.

End of the day we have plenty of PPE we’re ordered to carry that most of us rarely use (gloves) or hope to never use (fire shelter). Mandating a respirator be part of PPE just means they actually make the prototypes into production models rather than it being something we have to spend hundreds of our own dollars on inferior systems to try to not get cancer/live to see our kids grow up.

-10

u/ZonaDesertRat 1d ago

You can get a mask now, if that is your concern. Let me know after a season of wearing it how you feel...

My mask stays in my truck for all but the work on six felons or happy camp. 

5

u/RadioFreeCascadia 1d ago

I cannot buy the PAPR designs that actually allow us to work in the environments we do because they’re not marketable without a buyer.

A unpowered half mask is a shitty stand in and you know it. Not to mention getting yelled at for wearing it by ignorant overhead who assume you’re just risking heat exhaustion or inability to communicate for no good reason because they’ve got their head up their ass on how dangerous the smoke we’re eating is.

1

u/Least_State_7923 10h ago

I’m convinced you are a prevention tech that does ground support once a season. You comment on nearly every post and you obviously don’t spend much time on the line if you can just talk shit all day on each post on this sub.

-1

u/ZonaDesertRat 9h ago

I'm convinced you have your head up your ass. So there's that...

1

u/Least_State_7923 9h ago

Sure champ. See you cleaning the blue rooms after I goon

0

u/ZonaDesertRat 9h ago

Over your mother like the bagger you present yourself as, sad cause he can't make a resume that can get a job in fuels.... A real high bar you have for yourself. 

0

u/Ok-Device-9847 8h ago

I’ve literally heard horror stories about working for you. Several of my crewmembers (a couple women) have told me that you made some pretty bad comments toward them back in 2020 and 21

1

u/ZonaDesertRat 8h ago

Nice try troll. 

1

u/Sweet_Lobster_8079 9h ago

I’ve met you before, and I would agree that you are a desk jockey

1

u/SientoQueMerezcoMas 1d ago

Holding, mop-up in some circumstances.

If we could get some sweet sci-fi lightweight tech, absolutely. The more brutal truth is that the agencies haven’t chosen to pursue this in a meaningful fashion because they have no financial incentive to do so.

1

u/Ready-Ad6113 1d ago

What company is looking for a juicy government contract?

-6

u/Spiritual_Green_7757 1d ago

Id rather get cancer than look gay

-2

u/hiking_mike98 1d ago

What masks? There’s no mask or respirator that’s NIOSH approved for use in wildland. N95s are paper…you want paper strapped to your face and catching sparks?

3

u/AZPolicyGuy Down with the soyness 1d ago

This is not entirely true.

NIOSH has approved respirators that they recommend for wildland firefighting use. Their literature notes that their recommendations do not line up with NFPA 1984 standards, since they do not filter out gases like CO2, but the NIOSH certified respirators meet 95% of the NFPA standards.

DHS put out a market report of NIOSH certified products suitable for wildland firefighters. Some, like the Sundstrom masks, are made of silicon and include spark arrestors. It's my understanding that some European agencies issue Sundstroms for wildland fire use, and they comply with their local standards.

I think the NFPA standard is frankly ridiculous. There is zero way we ever carry oxygen which is, AFAIK, the only way to meet the CO2 standard. NFPA needs to adapt their standards to allow us some protection from this shit that is killing us, and we need training on overcoming the SA and production problems that might come with their use.

3

u/hiking_mike98 1d ago

Huh. Totally missed that. Guess I’m just old and not up to date!