r/YUROP 8d ago

SI VIS PACEM How about maintaining some balance?..

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u/studentoo925 Yuropean‏‏‎ ‎ 8d ago

That's what happens when you don't decapitate soviet when you can

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u/Miserygut 8d ago

There's nothing Soviet about the Capitalist hellscape that is Russia.

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u/Physmatik 8d ago

It's always funny seeing idiotic takes of tankies.

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u/studentoo925 Yuropean‏‏‎ ‎ 8d ago

But I wasn't talking about ru**ia

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u/Miserygut 8d ago

The UK doesn't have antagonistic relations with any other ex-Soviet countries.

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u/james_pic United Kingdom‏‏‎ ‎ 8d ago

We're not huge fans of Belarus right now either to be honest.

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u/hamatehllama Sverige‏‏‎ ‎ 8d ago

Russia isn't capitalist. Capitalists are defenestrated on almost a weekly basis by the regime. Their economy have strong elements of kleptocracy and dirigisme. And extrajudicial murders of capitalists critical of the dictatorship.

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u/Miserygut 8d ago

Capitalists own the means of production in Russia. None of those points you highlight are in conflict with that. You might say it's Capitalism with Russian characteristics and that might be considered fair although it's not an especially codified system.

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u/gamas 7d ago edited 7d ago

One could argue though that the Soviet regime was just oligarchy under the veneer of socialism.

It's not a coincidence that the current Russian government is made up of former KGB people and that nearly every prominent Russian oligarch today had quite important government roles during the USSR. They effectively used the state apparatus as a tool to enrich themselves.

The same people effectively running Russia now are the same people who were running the USSR just under a capitalist democracy veneer rather than a socialist veneer.

EDIT: Ironically you could argue that in many ways the USSR was really the embodiment of capitalist dystopia. It didn't empower the workers at all - the higher ups controlled everything. The Supreme Soviet was for all intents and purposes a monopolistic mega corporation that happened to control every industry in the USSR - that had none of the accountability that would come from actually being a people's government due to no-one being allowed to vote for anything other than what the supreme leadership (or in corporate speak the board of directors) wanted.

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u/Miserygut 7d ago

The Soviet regime definitely veered into State Capitalism for significant parts of its existence. The KGB's play post-collapse is a replay of the post-revolution appointment of the tsarist officials who were not really supportive of the Bolsheviks but necessary in maintaining a functioning international state. I'd be interested to know how many of the descendants of those tsarist officials became KGB and still hold sway in Putin's court.

Ironically you could argue that in many ways the USSR was really the embodiment of capitalist dystopia. It didn't empower the workers at all - the higher ups controlled everything.

Not really. Private Capital didn't play much of a role in the USSR for most of it's history. You could argue it was highly authoritarian and I would agree with that. The higher ups did control a great deal but the divorce between reality and what was reported to them was already a significant economic issue as early as the later years of Stalin's leadership.

As a whole they went from a dirt poor, rolling around in pig shit, feudal autocratic societies to something resembling a developed, relatively egalitarian country in the space of a few decades. There has been no period of greater or faster increase in living standards in human history, with China a close second. The irony that

The early consolidation of power under Stalin did a lot of damage to the resilience of the nascent USSR and it's ability to reform itself that it never really recovered from. The harsh initial conditions for restricting counter-revolutionary activity made it necessary but those quickly fell away as living standards improved. The rest was just very nasty politics.

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u/gamas 7d ago

Not really. Private Capital didn't play much of a role in the USSR for most of it's history. You could argue it was highly authoritarian and I would agree with that. The higher ups did control a great deal but the divorce between reality and what was reported to them was already a significant economic issue as early as the later years of Stalin's leadership.

I think I was speaking of it more from the perspective of being a worker in the Soviet Union. If you think of a lot of future dystopian concepts of capitalism (particularly cyberpunk) - you often have this idea of corporations effectively owning people, where they live and what they purchase and consume in a kind of neo-feudalist hierarchy - and in some cases including the idea that the worker isn't paid in money but in the form of corporate credit (like Amazon vouchers). And from that perspective, how much different is that from the life of the average worker under the Soviet Union?

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u/Miserygut 7d ago edited 6d ago

You're making the case that the USSR was closer to State Capitalism than Socialism and I agree with you, not to mention the USSR's handling of the countryside peasantry vs. how the CPC did it. The Chinese had the benefit of hindsight and did more to unleash the revolutionary potential of the countryside peasantry.

This drove a large part of the wedge between the USSR and Chinese ideas of Socialism (Sino-Soviet split), hence Socialism with Chinese characteristics became defined as similar but distinct in ideology.

Even under the USSR's State Capitalism the levels of freedom were significantly higher and the quality of life immeasurably better than under Tsarist rule for both urban and rural workers. There are lots of very reasonable criticisms of the USSR, the repression and authoritarianism was one of them although not unusual compared to other western liberal democracies it turns out.

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u/gamas 7d ago

Oh yeah it was absolutely an improvement over Tsarist - I just think its never properly introspected that the Soviets never completely threw away some of the feudalistic tendencies.

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u/Miserygut 7d ago

At some point the historical social and cultural characteristics of the people involved will come into play but it doesn't mean they shouldn't try to be as egalitarian as possible.