If any human person thinks they have nothing to be accountable for, they either exist on a mountain alone eating berries all day or lack any form of self reflection
To play devil's advocate, a person eating berries along on a mountain has to be accountable for the fact they've never helped anyone else or formed relationships with people they could be caring for.
A popular talking point is that white cis-het men have historically been doing much better than any other group, which, by some people's views, makes it perfectly fine to hate on them. That's the point of the original meme, that "feminists hate men". Why I chose to add the accountability part is because men, although deserve the same respect and rights as everyone else, are factually more privileged than other groups, thus have to take on more responsibility for their actions if they want to be treated as actual equals. Is this more understandable?
This is group logic of assuming every man has privilege and power, and have all done the same exact actions as each other, and if they don’t subscribe to your assumptions that all of them must take accountability for what YOU are accusing all men of, despite you knowing nothing of most men’s life, that they can’t be treated equally.
Whatever actions you accuse men as a whole of that they have to take responsibility for, doesn’t even apply to men as a whole, since it’s a generlization.
You remove the individuality of men, by claiming them all to be largely privileged, disregarding of other men’s life situations or issues being born less fortunate, regardless of their race (not being white in a western country), regardless of how poor they may or may not be, regardless of the fact that many men legit have no “privlage” beyond working a 9 to 5, etc.
Why do we need to make it about how they are all privlaged, in the topic of respecting men as human beings? Many believe that women have privlage, even if other women may not agree, but that doesn’t mean they don’t desvere equality or respect.
Like the other comment said, this was about respecting men as a human beings and their issues. Not about how men as a hive mind must take accountability according to you, not how they are all privlaged and must admit it if they want to be treated with baseline human respect.
You took it to that place yourself. It’s like a redpiller reacting to the message of “women are humans and deserve respect” by calling all all women privileged and that they don’t deserve equality or humans rights, less they agree with that Red Piller.
Hence why it’s strange you did not leave this topic at just respecting men as people and individuals, which now we know why.
Prolly just a meme template. I'd assume there's a Jaiden video where he says something unrelated to politics or anything and she comments on that and it became a meme because it's a kinda funny 2 panel sequence
Maybe it's about the Jaiden-terfs? I don't remember the exact name but there was a bunch of terfs going around hating men, overweight people, autistic women, and trans people and sending death threats to all of them online, I think they were somewhat notable?
Probably incel talk but it could be about that (of its ment to represent JA
Being a part of that community doesn't mean you're not transphobic. Considering yourself feminist doesn't mean you're not racist, sexist, or transphobic either.
There's a lot of sub communities within those two who trash on trans women in particular either for holding them back or because they consider that demographic to be "dangerous to society".
People say they're a vocal minority, but to be honest I've heard a couple of people in real life accidentally let their real thoughts slip on occasion.
Jaiden is definitely not transphobic though, if she's as good friends with Jacob as she claims (they're roommates or something), then she probably doesn't mind his new friends too much which include a lot of trans men and women. And she even met him under the same conditions as those guys did.
I’m not a feminist but I think the best way to help feminsim with the issue of those feminist that are racist, sexist or transphobic, is that people need to just call them out, mainly other feminist and feminist allies themselves to call out stuff like that, rather than telling everyone else that it’s small or doesn’t happen or worse, justify that sort of shitty behavior. People think that just because someone is a feminist, it means they can’t be hateful, otherwise they must not be a “true” feminist, however in reality even early feminist and sufferage movement were racist and would treat POC poorly, especially POC women.
I feel like with any critism of feminism, or even post like this about how men are humans, people get way too wrapped up in trying to defend feminist from any critsism and accusing everyone else of being misognstic and misinformed, mainly through true Scotsman ideals that if that feminist said something sexist, racist, or transphobic then she’s not a feminist…but then can proceed to explain
that MRA movements and its memebers are mostly sexist and racist, which ok, but why not also accept that feminist themselves CAN be hateful instead of ignoring it?
Saying “they are in the minority” doesn’t get rid of those that are commonly transphobic or hateful. It doesn’t change everyone’s bad experiences with those feminist who were complete bigots to men or trans men/women or others.
I used to be an edgy teenager who thought that feminists were anti men.....then I actually met feminists and talked to them instead of getting mad at the imaginary ones the internet made up.
I used to be a naive feminist who thought it stood for equality, but then I spoke to irl feminists I thought were my friends and found out that behind the bigoted comments of Internet feminists are very much real people.
It'd help if those same men (and I say this as a cis guy) would stop bringing up men's issues only and exclusively as a whataboutism in response to women's/trans rights/issues.
If you cared about these issues so much, you wouldn't have weaponized them to this extent.
Exactly, like you can't say "The social expectations and gender roles put on men are bad for men's mental health" without some incel climbing of the sewer and saying "Yes cus men are oppressed and I HATE woman."
Like these mens rights guys are literally a hinderance to men, they make everything about how they hate women. Mens issues should be a part of feminism, not a bigoted attack against feminism.
As a cis het guy I 100% agree. Men also suffer under the patriarchy and our issues should not be used as a "gotcha" to invalidate the struggles of women and gender minorities.
there is a bit of a point when womens day is more widely known that mens day, however you cant expect anyone to celebrate or know about something if nobody actually contributes to it being known...
most people that spend all day on the internet complaining about "this group has a month, this group doesnt" "this group has a week, this group doesnt" never leave their house, and the simple equation will tell you, if nobody organizes an event, there will be no organized event... want a celebration, make one yourself
I mean… why not? Veterans fought for our freedoms. allowing us to live the way you and me do. I think that’s at least just as important as letting others know a guy should be able to do the dirty with another guy. My comment is asking why not increase recognition for veterans and NOT asking to decrease the recognition for pride month although I’ve heard people say that. I’m just stating that I feel the world would be a more respectful place if we all remembered just how hellish veterans lives were back in the past and even now
Yeah the whole point is they already do get months dedicated to them, it's just that people making that argument don't *really* care about the troops, they just want to bash LGBTQ+.
The point is that veterans already have a lot of appreciation, you muppet. The people that play the "why don't.." just don't pay attention/don't actually care.
Pride month started at the stonewall riots. The gay community organically came back to stonewall a year after it happened and held a celebration of remembrance. It became a yearly tradition and started growing in size. Eventually, it started spreading to other cities to celebrate the gay community every year during that month. It eventually became so large that it became an officially recognized month.
There isn't just someone out there deciding who can and can't be celebrated. If veterans have a yearly celebration, they can keep putting resources towards it as much as they want. No one is preventing them from following in pride month's footsteps.
You can tell them apart because the men that actually care about men's rights are advocating for them on a random Tuesday afternoon and not during pride or a women's march or whatever.
You can tell them apart because the men that actually care about men's rights are advocating for them on a random Tuesday afternoon and not during pride
June is pride month, as well as men's mental health awareness month.
edit: If you didn't know that, that really is indicative of the whole situation, in a sad and ironic way.
Men's mental health month is on the same month as pride, which gets way more attention and overshadows it. Then people who don't know it's also men's mental health month wonder why people are advocating for recognition of men's mental health issues during pride month, and saying they shouldn't do that during that time.
Really does not help the idea that men's mental health is very important.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men. This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness. Unlike women, men are expendable (have no inherent social value), so if they don't take accountability and step in line, no one will care. They have to be the stoic ones in society. This is the way it is, and most men have to accept it.
I think that on an individual level, this is mostly true. Most women care about men and their needs. I would say i did run into tons of misandry when i worked in feminist spaces, and faced a lot of prejudice and distrust for being a man.
However, even if individual women care, this doesn't translate to institutional support of men's needs. There aren't scholarships for men to enter fields of work dominated by women, such as teaching, nursing, psychology; support groups directed specifically at men's needs don't really exist, and personally the ones i saw were focused on preventing men from committing domestic violence instead of treating their personal needs. There just isn't institutional support for men and, ironically, when people attempted to start it, they were shut down.
Men also suffer under patriarchy and suffer from toxic masculinity, also being victims of these. In theory, they should also be receiving support, but it just doesn't happen, and i would say it is caused by an acceptance and normalization of misandry in feminism.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men
Mens mental health months is a perfect example, actually. It's in June, conveniently overlapping with pride month. And so all you ever hear about men's mental health month is when it's to drown out mentions of pride.
They could have picked any other month. June has had LGBTQ significance since the Stonewall riots in the 60s. Men's Mental Health Week has only existed since 1994 (and was established by a Republican), which eventually turned into a month somewhere in the early 2000s.
It's not about "society" being uncomfortable with men expressing vulnerability. It's about men's mental health issues, which are very real, being coopted by bigots in order to drown out the issues of marginalized people.
Calling what Reddit does a "celebration" for any of these is a stretch. Mostly rhey juat use it as another excuse to bitch about women. Men's Mental Health month isnt as bad as International Men's Day, probably because its a whole month, but i almost never see actual positive posts about either.
The problem is very often the response to men’s issues is met either with the idea of men being the cause of their own problems or it’s reframed into also being a women’s issue.
The graduation disparity is one example of this. And I can share my own experiences with mental health.
There's a very strong prevailing idea that every fault in society, regardless of who it affects, is ultimately caused by men.
It's patriarchy, or toxic masculinity, or misogyny. Even toxic femininity is often presented as protectionism against men, or internalised misogyny or whatever
I am not completely against the idea that some problems can be connected to a legacy of traditional masculinity. My problem is that the presented solution is a rejection of masculinity rather than a reformation of it. This also turns into a sins of the father issue where young men are told, at the very least, that they are complacent in these systems.
It creates a very dangerous mentality where young men seeking help either isolate into some very dark places or violently lash out. This comment section is a decent example of what I’m on about.
Ugh I get that so much 😭. That was literally me at 14. Now I'm like "I understand your in pain but also stop arguing about this where they are talking about trans people/cis woman." Like I understand they're not happy people but at some point it's like....dude this is not the time nor the place
Male suicide is talked about a lot. The unfair distribution of college funds is talked about a lot. The blatant sexism in Family Court is talked about a lot.
It's just that people will ignore that and instead create a conspiracy theory that these only get mentioned as a whataboutism. Even though they're being discussed all the time. It's just that no one seems to care.
You can go to the family law, suicide watch, and college scholarship and grants subreddits and see these discussions.
They aren't being weaponized. We are being gaslit into thinking they are. And the reason for the gaslighting is to...checks notes...ignore those issues.
I do agree with this, but be careful because you are doing it too!
This was posted and saying men deserves human rights, and here you are talking about women and trans rights! I understand why and completely agree but you are ‘one of those people’ (even if you are doing it the other way around)
It’ll also help if every time men brought up issues, they weren’t drowned out by (self proclaimed) feminists saying women have it worse, that the fault of the issue is on men, or just calling them incels for daring to care about an issue only affecting men.
It's baffling how many men will look at the draft and instead of having the obvious opinion of "military drafts are horrible and nobody should be subjected to them," they'll say "If women want equal rights they should be drafted as well."
Like, at that point it's obvious they don't give a shit about the well-being of men. They just want an excuse to make women suffer.
To be fair, even when those men do bring up those issues on their own, it seems the reverse also seem to happen, where the issue is downplayed as not being as bad as women’s issues, or other women bringing up their own issues as worse. If you bring up male issues at all, people will instantly accuse you of decentering women and that you are hateful, and I honestly think it’s because they already have their own narratives that those issues do not matter.
Aren’t you literally doing that by taking something meant to be pointing out men’s issues and immediately dismissing it with whataboutism of your own?
Basically any form of talk about male issues is immediately drowned out by people screaming ‘incel’ ‘mra’ or some form of ‘we can’t talk about this because women have it worse’.
Almost every genuine attempt to talk about male issues gets shouted down by disingenuous people basically saying they shouldn’t be talked about with exactly the rhetoric you are using now.
Feminist issues and males issues aren’t mutually exclusive and shouldn’t be at odds with one another.
This is incredibly true and frustrating. No genuine, nuanced conversation can be had about misandry or things that men struggle with without a crowd of incels gathering and excitedly nodding and clapping.
For me it’s not incels, but even other “feminist” and feminist ally’s who don’t help by either downplaying the issue, or blaming the issue back onto men as a gotcha.
Feminists do. What ever the fuck these rage hogs on Tiktok and Reddit that claim to be feminists are don't.
They use patriarchy as an excuse to treat you like a wallet.
True Feminism = equality for all. These feminists fight not only for the rights of women, but for the rights of men, LGBTQ+ people, people of colour, and basically everyone who is treated as inequal. They will call out injustice when it is seen, and they will help to prevent it from happening again.
Radical Feminism = superiority for biological females. These "feminists" base their beliefs on the idea that, since men have ruled the world for thousands of years, it's their "turn". What once started as a small group of supporters has become a misandrist cult. These are the feminists that say "kill all men", and throw other people under the bus because they think it'll help them get further.
As you can see, feminism and radical feminism are very different. When people complain about feminists, they are 99/100 times complaining about radical feminists. Given how loud a minority these radfems are, it's no wonder that some people think that's all feminism is. But life isn't a zero-sum game, it's possible for everyone to move up, we don't need to put men down to raise up women or vice versa.
Radical feminism does not mean "women are better than men" or "kill all men"
Radical feminism is about creating fundamental change to society so that men and women are equal while liberal feminism doesn't want equality, they just want less oppression against women rather than getting rid of it completely, liberal feminists don't care about the social aspect of how women are treated in society and just want women to have all the same legal rights.
Radical feminism isn't about transphobia, it isn't about racism, it isn't about hating men, it's not about any of those lies made to cause infighting. JK Rowling isn't a radical feminist (she isn't even a real feminist) people who hate men arn't radical feminist.
People who want complete destruction of the patriarchy are radical feminists.
Radical feminists quite literally see men as the issue. Some radfems want women in a completely separate society from men and call women with boyfriends or husbands traitors. Liberal feminism is equality for all, the ROOTS of all feminism was equality for women, because they were severely oppressed.
Feminists being portrayed as men-hating bigots is nothing new actually... this stereotype exists since they fight for the right to vote (this is a 1900 anti-suffrage postcard)
Considering feminists believe the default relationship between men and women is one of oppression and subjugation of the female sex, it's no surprise. They even name all the evils of their worldview after men (patriarchy, toxic masculinity, ect.) In short, they're basically saying:
"We don't hate men! We just named everything bad after them because they use rape and domestic violence to oppress their own wives, mothers, sisters and daughters, along with the rest of humanity's half upon which they rely on to build society!"
Most of those men have a problem with feminism is because fake feminist keep saying how much they hate men and there struggles aren't real and that they will suck and should kill themselves ect ect
Not too long ago, this was a common contentious position on social media. The overlap in the 'all men are shit, I hate all men' crowd also being the 'respect everyone's immutable characteristics' crowd was jarring.
That’s a good point. A lot of people who say stuff like “respect everyone’s immutable characteristics” will go and blame all of society’s ills on men and masculinity in the very same breath.
One claims to vouch for equality. If these supremacists call themselves feminists, abide by feminist theory, and even write it, then they are feminists. You don't get to say they aren't just because you don't like them. You aren't the boss of feminism.
I mean ultimately feminism is about equality for BOTH sexes not dominance (Also ALL humans deserve their rights respected no matter the sex,age, gender,race, sexuality etc)
A lot of guys who have never read any form of feminist literature believe in such bs social media curated beliefs of feminism without realizing that feminists never argued for anti-men anything... Feminists literally always argued for equality...
The problem was that in the world of social media as many men you see who have 0 clue about feminism, you'll also meet terrible women who aren't aware of feminism
You'll also see narratives created against feminists too...
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u/qualityvote2 29d ago edited 29d ago
The community has decided that this IS an antimeme!