It'd help if those same men (and I say this as a cis guy) would stop bringing up men's issues only and exclusively as a whataboutism in response to women's/trans rights/issues.
If you cared about these issues so much, you wouldn't have weaponized them to this extent.
Exactly, like you can't say "The social expectations and gender roles put on men are bad for men's mental health" without some incel climbing of the sewer and saying "Yes cus men are oppressed and I HATE woman."
Like these mens rights guys are literally a hinderance to men, they make everything about how they hate women. Mens issues should be a part of feminism, not a bigoted attack against feminism.
No one says that. Especially in this context. I've spoken with MRAs for years and not a single one frames men's issues as a matter of one sex oppressing the other.
"Mens issues should be a part of feminism, not a bigoted attack against feminism."
So when feminists are the ones initiating bigoted attack against men, they're just supposed to suck it up and take it in order to provide for feminists and maybe get some benefits as a trickle-down effect? Way to challenge the traditional male gender role you just claimed to be against. Also, there's nothing inherently bigoted about criticizing feminism. They don't get to use an entire sex as meat shields just because they claim to represent their best interest.
As a cis het guy I 100% agree. Men also suffer under the patriarchy and our issues should not be used as a "gotcha" to invalidate the struggles of women and gender minorities.
there is a bit of a point when womens day is more widely known that mens day, however you cant expect anyone to celebrate or know about something if nobody actually contributes to it being known...
most people that spend all day on the internet complaining about "this group has a month, this group doesnt" "this group has a week, this group doesnt" never leave their house, and the simple equation will tell you, if nobody organizes an event, there will be no organized event... want a celebration, make one yourself
Literally worked for a women's health charity and that is the only group I know that celebrates international men's day. MRA dudes just want there to be a problem.
I mean… why not? Veterans fought for our freedoms. allowing us to live the way you and me do. I think that’s at least just as important as letting others know a guy should be able to do the dirty with another guy. My comment is asking why not increase recognition for veterans and NOT asking to decrease the recognition for pride month although I’ve heard people say that. I’m just stating that I feel the world would be a more respectful place if we all remembered just how hellish veterans lives were back in the past and even now
Yeah the whole point is they already do get months dedicated to them, it's just that people making that argument don't *really* care about the troops, they just want to bash LGBTQ+.
Pride month started at the stonewall riots. The gay community organically came back to stonewall a year after it happened and held a celebration of remembrance. It became a yearly tradition and started growing in size. Eventually, it started spreading to other cities to celebrate the gay community every year during that month. It eventually became so large that it became an officially recognized month.
There isn't just someone out there deciding who can and can't be celebrated. If veterans have a yearly celebration, they can keep putting resources towards it as much as they want. No one is preventing them from following in pride month's footsteps.
The point is that veterans already have a lot of appreciation, you muppet. The people that play the "why don't.." just don't pay attention/don't actually care.
the thing is pride moth is worldwide movement, if you want to make recognition for the veterans of your country go ahead and do it but is kind of obvious a worldwide movement will do more noice than the recognition of the veterans of just one country.
Can you imagine the absolute chaos of a worldwide veterans’ appreciation month though. Like yeah let’s get everyone who fought someone, probably someone from a different country because so many wars are international now, and celebrate that allllll together now…
I accidentally read this as "mouth" and spent way too long trying to figure out what that meant. Like is this trying to say veterans literally don't have mouths? Or maybe it's figurative and saying they just don't have public voices?
You can tell them apart because the men that actually care about men's rights are advocating for them on a random Tuesday afternoon and not during pride or a women's march or whatever.
You can tell them apart because the men that actually care about men's rights are advocating for them on a random Tuesday afternoon and not during pride
June is pride month, as well as men's mental health awareness month.
edit: If you didn't know that, that really is indicative of the whole situation, in a sad and ironic way.
Men's mental health month is on the same month as pride, which gets way more attention and overshadows it. Then people who don't know it's also men's mental health month wonder why people are advocating for recognition of men's mental health issues during pride month, and saying they shouldn't do that during that time.
Really does not help the idea that men's mental health is very important.
I don't get what your point is, or how my comment proves it.
The example you're giving is clearly not a genuine attempt to raise awareness for men's mental health issues. It's a homophobic protest to a pride parade, under the guise of it.
Getting what? The example that OP brought up is clearly a homophobic counter to a pride parade, and they're implying it was done under the guise of raising awareness for men's mental health.
Which is obviously not cool. But what would be the problem with a genuine public demonstration to raise awareness for men's mental health issues, at the same time as a pride parade?
It means queer men get to double up on the month, which is pretty appropriate given that LGBT+ men often have mental health provlems caused by oppression.
There's only 12 months. They're going to overlap. In Australia, Movember is when most men's mental health awareness fundraising happens.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men. This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness. Unlike women, men are expendable (have no inherent social value), so if they don't take accountability and step in line, no one will care. They have to be the stoic ones in society. This is the way it is, and most men have to accept it.
Well i don’t know where you’re from but men can be stay at home fathers too? It’s not as common, but definitely something that happens and something you could do.
Not to mention that you’d need a spouse who can afford that, but who are we kidding pretending most women and their spouses can afford that. Especially when the woman is already broke. Can’t be broke and living on a single person income in most cases.
It's the truth. Men have no inherent social value, they have to earn something to mean something. They have to fight or create to be valuable. It's just biology. This is the deeper reason why men's mental health or men's rights or men's anything will never be a big thing. Most men can't take pride in being men, instead it's what they do that they take pride in.
See, I don't get what you're saying at all. I'm an unemployed gamer who smokes weed like a chimney all day but I have a loving family, tons of friends, and a fiancee with a high paying job who will support me forever
If what you're saying is true, shouldn't I be alone and sad?
Somewhere out there is a woman (like my mother), who has earned more money than any man she ever worked with, who doesn't believe women face hardships or issues in the workplace because of what she personally experienced. Should we listen to her (the exception) more than we listen to the rule?
I have two buddies in your same lifestyle, yet they don't have the same benefits you do. Why? Because you're the expcetion, not the rule.
You can find insane exceptions for everything on this planet. It doesn't mean that's the standard.
I think that on an individual level, this is mostly true. Most women care about men and their needs. I would say i did run into tons of misandry when i worked in feminist spaces, and faced a lot of prejudice and distrust for being a man.
However, even if individual women care, this doesn't translate to institutional support of men's needs. There aren't scholarships for men to enter fields of work dominated by women, such as teaching, nursing, psychology; support groups directed specifically at men's needs don't really exist, and personally the ones i saw were focused on preventing men from committing domestic violence instead of treating their personal needs. There just isn't institutional support for men and, ironically, when people attempted to start it, they were shut down.
Men also suffer under patriarchy and suffer from toxic masculinity, also being victims of these. In theory, they should also be receiving support, but it just doesn't happen, and i would say it is caused by an acceptance and normalization of misandry in feminism.
Yeah right meanwhile misandrists literally use hashtags like #KillAllMen, while man have a way higher suicide rate and are more likely to get their life ruined by false accusations
Agreed. Simailr to a misogynist, someone who’s NOT misandrist has no real reason to defend or downplay misandry as at worst “annoying” when talking about mens issues.
The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods. A firearm as opposed to an overdose.
That’s why women report more suicide attempts despite men having a higher suicide rate itself. So the stat isn’t as black and white in terms of pointing out a gender disparity that people try and use it for.
You can attempt suicide multiple times and what can be reported as suicide attempts is very vague, while an actual suicide is pretty clear and can't be repeated, so I dont think those things are even
Also men are way less likely a report a suicide attempt compared to women or even be counted as such, if a guy tries to overdose, he probably would just be labeled as drug junkie
It's like literally survivorship bias mixed with whataboutism
Like your whole reasoning does not even make sense "The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods", like thats not an actual reasoning, its just means suicidal men are more likely to actually kill themselves, but it doesnt explain the actual reason for it, is it because women are not smart enough to kill themselves despite wanting it as much as the men? Or because the men want it more and for women its rather a cry for attention? Or men are less likely to report it, so it only seems like women are attempting more? Like there could be many reasons
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
The fact is, and it’s not refutable, is that men favor more effective methods despite making fewer attempts.
Instead of being outraged by the loss of life (90% of those that make an attempt go on to NOT die by suicide, so it’s extra tragic that men choose firearms because if they were less likely to succeed in their first attempt they would be more likely to never die by suicide) you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Suicidal ideation is not just a chip to play when arguing gender politics
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
Thats just sad, you apparently cant even use the term suicidal ideation properly, because that means suicidal thoughts and not suicide attempts lmao, but sure you wrote a masters thesis on a subject were you dont even know the the definitions of words and i am britney spears btw
And you couldnt even address one point of my comment, like how men being less likely to report attempts would affect it, or why men are more likely to use more deadly attempts, or how a men who tries to overdose himself would be more likely labelled as someone with a drug problem who just took too much or how the definition of attempt can be very vague
Instead you wrote a multiple paragraph comment addressing nothing of substance and instead just claim that you know it better and that i am wrong, while smelling your own farts, because you wrote a masters on a subject which you cant even properly discuss, like yeah right
you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Like what stats am i even supposed to be mad about? That men are more likely to successfully kill themselves?
Whats the tile of your thesis? "Men suicides dont matter as much as women suicide attempts, because women are less likely to successfully kill themselves and why that is mens fault" and let me guess, your "thesis" was published in a reddit post?
No, Misandry does kill, such as women killing their ex’s for cheating (something that’s deemed misognry) or women simply chopping off their spouses genitalia when their spouse makes them mad. More commonly However Misandry seems to justify all sorts of verbal, sexual, and physical abuse towards men via whole ideal of “men are stronger/if a woman hits him, he must’ve done something wrong” that tends to come from even some women defending or downplaying abuse
The problem with this commonly used quote “Misandry annoys, misognry kills” is that you are purposely comparing the extreme (killing) to something lesser (annoy) in order to downplay 1 form of hatred and defend the other. This can be done with any form of hated if you have that narrative in mind to downplay one over. It’s a bad faith argument to begin with.
When a majority-female government makes men’s health care illegal; when we live in a country in which 100% of heads of state throughout its 250-year history have been women; when most men have been sexually harassed by adult women since childhood; when parents teach their sons not to walk alone at night because they’re afraid women will rape them; when your grandfather wasn’t allowed to have a credit card in his own name, but could only use his wife’s; then misandry will be the same thing as misogyny.
You know, growing up, millenials were taught everyone is equal. Caring about men's issues doesn't limit also caring about women's issues. Circa 2014, there was a huge push for men's rights and their needs, which was hatefully rejected by feminist institutions. These movements were mocked, ridiculed, and called misogynist. I genuinely believe if feminism had made space for men at the table in regards to gendered suffering, Trump would've lost and we wouldn't be facing a huge rise in American fascism.
But here we are. AstroTurfing russians magnified misandrist views on the left and directed men away from them and progressives towards real misogyny in conservatives. Your argument that misogyny is worse is one I agree with, but your conclusion is that because it is worse, misandry shouldn't matter, which I disagree with. In the end, it was you who won the argument, and it denied men support, purpose, and belonging.
So, okay, you won. Men don't get scholarships to enter women dominated fields. They don't get gendered mental support. Nothing is done to reduce their increased suicide rate, loneliness or self harming behaviours, such as addictions. You convinced the powers that be that men's gendered issues didn't matter, and they're all men's fault and men also abuse women anyways, so obviously they deserve them.
There you go, you won. Men got nothing, like you wanted, and it only cost men's support for progressivism. You broke the promise of equality, and men turned away from the left and from progressivism and from gender theory and from feminism. And now everyone, including the men you shunned, will suffer the results.
You won the war against the average man and drove most to apathy and many others to the arms of humanity's enemy, sincerely evil misogynist rich fucks. So before you keep sputtering drivel in defense of hatred, remember that we all need each other, and justifying hatred towards men will only ensure women continue losing rights.
Men don’t necessarly receive gendered health care to begin with, we already live in a world where many men during childhood have been sexually assaulted or abused by women, parents SHOULD teach their sons that yes, women can indeed harm them, a random woman at night is a stranger regardless because just like stranger men, some women do have ill intent, or DO rape or assault people (yet it’s not taken into stat or legally consedered rape), and my grandfather unfortunately had no money, likely no card, and that’s because it was a poor family.
Regardless you should combat misandry alongside like how you would misogony rather than downplay the other. Not bring up unrelated issues just because you don’t want to see misandry as bad.
Why is your argument that they have to be equivalent to combat misandry? You realize you're defending hatred, right? Also, I wouldn't call men's heightened workplace deaths, combat deaths, and suicide rates an annoyance. Maybe just admit you don't care about men's issues and prove my point.
Who started male support groups and got them shut down? Well, one notable example was Earl Silverman, a domestic abuse victim who couldn't find any domestic abuse shelters that accepted men when he fled from his violent wife in 1991. The only ones he found were anger management groups (which tracks with my experience), which revictimized him by assuming he was the perpetrator of the abuse. He opened a shelter in 2011 for men and was forced to close it down in 2013 due to lack of funding (institutional support, like I stated above). He sold the shelter and committed suicide the next day.
Educate yourself. Your pithy gotcha lines are reductionist and will make turn others against you. Stop defending hatred. The more you do, the more ammunition you give to real misogynists to convince average men to move further right. You are losing the ideological battle and taking all us progressives and leftists with you.
EXACTLY. "misandry" ends at calling a man short online. misogyny bars women from being educated, from having reproduction rights, from being able to inherit land and be equal citizens. they can never be equated.
This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness.
They have to be the stoic ones in society.
This is literally textbook toxic masculinity. So yes, if this is the problem you're having then toxic masculinity is in fact the root of that problem.
And it's not necessarily an issue that needs to be fixed
Men being driven to harmful and often self-destructive behaviors because we're not allowed to express emotion in a healthy and reasonable way absolutely is an issue that needs to be fixed.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men
Mens mental health months is a perfect example, actually. It's in June, conveniently overlapping with pride month. And so all you ever hear about men's mental health month is when it's to drown out mentions of pride.
They could have picked any other month. June has had LGBTQ significance since the Stonewall riots in the 60s. Men's Mental Health Week has only existed since 1994 (and was established by a Republican), which eventually turned into a month somewhere in the early 2000s.
It's not about "society" being uncomfortable with men expressing vulnerability. It's about men's mental health issues, which are very real, being coopted by bigots in order to drown out the issues of marginalized people.
Except, as has already been pointed out, hardly anyone even knows that men's mental health month is in June because everyone associates it with pride month.
Nope. Because a handful of bigots have loudly coopted men's mental health issues to silence LGBT struggles, I am now forced to speak out against these practices to weed out the bigots and make people aware of their existence.
Bigots have no place in talks about any kind of social issues, they just serve to poison the well. They don't help the conversation on either side.
The uncomfortable truth is that no one gives a fuck, because men can never be a marginalized group. "Men" as a group can never be deserving of sympathy or special attention. Think about it.
No, I've thought about it. Men, as a group, can be plenty deserving of sympathy or special attention. But what doesn't help is when these issues are brought up not to talk about the issues, but as a deflection or attack or the issues of other groups. As you're doing right now.
Actually you're deflecting. My comments have always been about how society thinks about men's issues, No sudden change here. If you don't want to have a conversation about that, then that's fine.
100% this. All anyone ever does to combat this talking point is mention one-off anecdotes, or hyper exceptions.
But when we look at how most men are treated, the rule is society doesn't give a shit. Hence, why were the ones drafted to go die in a foreign country when society needs a meat shield.
men as a group can never be deserving of sympathy or special attention
Sorry, I commented on your root post that I hadn’t experienced what you described already, but just wanted to add comment here.
This just isn’t true. I and all my male friends experience sympathy, when things happen that affect us people from outside our social circles express sympathy for us. On an individual level, I’d guess I’ve been the recipient of both sympathy and special attention roughly as much as anyone else.
But even on a group level, I also experience sympathy and special attention from other parts of my identity. Yeah, maleness isn’t so often explicitly called out to be celebrated (though it is, just not as frequently) but that’s one of the consequences of us being treated as the default. But I get to participate in other celebrations from the groups in part of. And not just like, inherent identity. Yeah I participate in pride stuff and that’s great, but even on the level of like, entertainment or sports or all the myriad other little things that make up me. People commiserate when stuff we like gets canceled, I get to share hype with friends when our soccer team does well.
Maleness doesn’t exclude me from sympathy or special attention at all, and I’m not sure how anyone could reach that idea unless they are only trying to find sympathy and special attention in maleness.
That's great. Don't let me rain on your parade. I have a very different outllook and experience, and guess what, I'll never tell you you're wrong. I do believe the average male experience is unlike yours though.
I’d ask you to consider the second half of my post, not just my lived experience. Specifically the idea that sympathy and special attention are abundant as long as you’re not exclusively looking for them in maleness.
I don’t want you to feel like I’m lecturing you or being condescending, but I’m not sure how else to write this. I’ve seen what you’re describing (always feeling like you have to play the stoic, feeling deprived categorically of sympathy) but not as some universal quality, but only in my friends who are suffering from depression (male and female, for what it’s worth). I’d disagree it’s most men’s experiences, but I can understand seeing it that way when you’re in. This is stupid because I don’t know you, but I do hope you find something to help pull you out of it.
Calling what Reddit does a "celebration" for any of these is a stretch. Mostly rhey juat use it as another excuse to bitch about women. Men's Mental Health month isnt as bad as International Men's Day, probably because its a whole month, but i almost never see actual positive posts about either.
This is basically the crux of the problem, men aren't allowed to insinuate that any of the problems they face are perpetuated by women, because women can do no wrong.
Nah this is too self-deprecating. Men do have inherent social value, every human does. It’s just that it’s exceptionally confusing what mental health issues are socially acceptable to express within a feminist framework. If he can’t talk about his issues without experiencing prejudice(against him), scrutiny and judgement, he’s not going to open up. There’s little benefit to him. And bad feminism worsens this issue, because it’s disbelieving. It demands vulnerability from men, but punishes them when they show it. (E.g. toxic masculinity)
I can think of several rights that women have that men don't. Reproductive rights for one. I can think of a dozen advantages (and favorability) that women are given over men in school, finances, divorces, etc. There's a reason women college grads are increasing and men are rapidly decreasing. Just look at the numbers.
Women have a right to paid maternity leave and other things. It's not very good in the US, but better in other countries. This is a cost to the company, and another right afforded to women.
im pretty sure by "other countries" you are imagining europe and australia in your head. let me remind you that the majority of the worlds population lives in asia and africa, where the wage gap VERY MUCH still exists and is VERY WIDE.
For one example - Men absolutely have more rights to bodily autonomy and medical privacy in the USA.
And, let us not pretend that the MAGA Nazis arent implementing Project 2025, which very clearly states that they want to take away a woman's right to vote. They are even rolling out the "Save Act" which will effectively disenfranchise many women and punish them for changing their last names after marriage...as society pushed them to do...as a means for restricting their freedom of expression and ability to vote for representation
If we are keeping things honest women aren't forced to register for selective service and be drafted in the event of a military emergency. I'm not going to argue that women don't have it bad but men's issues are serious and need to stop being down played. Suicide, graduation rates, even pay for millennials all favor women now. It's great that we've managed to help out women but it has been done at the expense of men and we need to start reaching out to them in the same way that education and the work force was changed to help women without taking away the gains that have been made.
Men are more employed AND get paid more. The country has only ever been run by a man. Women may go to college more now, and so what? They get saddled with the debt just to ultimately make less anyway and face various forms of employment discrimination. If they get pregnant? Career death if not an actual possible death sentence in some states. Their living body has less rights than their corpse. Who runs all the massive companies controlling America? Men again. 🤔
The rich old white men are doing fine. Us average men are not. That is the issue, if you take out the top 1% of men, it tells an entirely different story.
The gender pay gap is based on a statistic of ALL men's wages and ALL womens wages pooled together with no compensation for different careers, different benefits, maternity leave, frequency of demanding raises, stay at home parents, etc. Studies have shown men are far more likely to forego benefits, work overtime, and take riskier jobs in exchange for more money. When differences in career and benefits are accounted for, the pay gap is either eliminated, or drops to a couple percent depending on field, which is explained by men being far more likely to repeatedly demand raises or quit and get a new job.
The reality is ALL of us are underpaid, not just women. Although there are certainly examples of sexist bosses denying raises or pushing women out of jobs, the "Gender Pay Gap" statistic is misleading, and mostly used to promote misinformation because people enjoy feeling like victims.
Having worked in those riskier fields with higher pay, I feel that you’re overlooking the way women are systemically kept out of those fields, though. It isn’t a choice that women are collectively making wherein they say “oooo, I don’t wanna get dirty, so I won’t be a confined space specialist or a welder!” In most cases.
It’s cartoonishly obvious sexism. When I did this stuff around 2015, there were plenty of foremen who would look you in the eye and say shit like “we don’t hire women, they’re too emotional for this shit” or “their place aint in the workforce, they belong with the children” or whatnot. The sort of stuff that would have felt ham fisted and like a fantasy of obvious sexism in a work of fiction were these dude’s day to day expressions. I was a field guy all over the place— I witnessed behavior like that in Texas, Tennessee, Indiana, Illinois, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Maryland. Not just the places I expected to see it, but scattered throughout the country.
Women were systemically kept out of those fields for a very long time, but in recent times, the stats show something different going on. 2015 is 10 years ago, but we've made a lot of leaps since then. Remember, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in the United States until 2015. Much of the nation has become more and more progressive since then and that applies to both genders.
I don't think anyone is trying to erase the history, but it's important to realize things have moved along way from what they used to be. Even 2005 to 2015 is drastically different.
All that said, the stats still say that women are more likely to choose careers that align with their gender stereotypes.
Although there are certainly examples of sexist bosses denying raises or pushing women out of jobs,
Gee whiz it's almost like I literally said that in my comment. You wrote as much as I did, have the courtesy to at least read everything I wrote.
I'll be more specific with the problem I am addressing. The commenter I responded to seems to believe women are paid less than men for doing the same job, which is a common misconception. My goal is to inform people that men and women doing the same job almost always get paid the same or very similarly when considering benefits. I am not saying "Oh there is no more employment discrimination" which is why I specifically stated that those problems still exist.
I think you're confusing societal inequalities with a lack of rights, which isn't really the case. Relying on "rights" as your vehicle to explain these things limits your overall point and hurts it more than it helps it.
Legally, both men and women possess the right of bodily autonomy, but it's complex when you consider the concept of abortions, which men physically cannot have, and this is only limited to specific states. I'm absolutely pro-choice, but it's hard to call this a right that's taken away from a handful of states with specific rules of when abortion is and isn't reasonable and it's hard to call it inequal when men don't technical experience abortions or birth. That isn't it to say it isn't a talking point, but it's not one when saying "men have more rights than women." Men simply cannot have abortions, and many do not have rights to paper abortions in multiple states.
MAGA Nazis and Project 2025 are absolutely insane, but again, they haven't taken away your rights yet. It's a scary thing and I don't want it just as the next reasonable person, but no one has lost their gender-based or sex-based rights from this.
I think we need to look at the societal differences because those are far more important to discuss than rights, because it's those differences right there that end up shaping those rights or lack thereof.
I'm saying rights to abortions aren't something men have either because they cannot experience abortions in the same way. Even paper abortions, which are an option, are not legal in many more states.
Considering abortions are still legal in many states, wouldn't men have less rights in this regard? I personally feel like this topic too complicated to say it's a rights thing and it's not an equal enough subject to consider it in topics of equality.
The problem is very often the response to men’s issues is met either with the idea of men being the cause of their own problems or it’s reframed into also being a women’s issue.
The graduation disparity is one example of this. And I can share my own experiences with mental health.
There's a very strong prevailing idea that every fault in society, regardless of who it affects, is ultimately caused by men.
It's patriarchy, or toxic masculinity, or misogyny. Even toxic femininity is often presented as protectionism against men, or internalised misogyny or whatever
I am not completely against the idea that some problems can be connected to a legacy of traditional masculinity. My problem is that the presented solution is a rejection of masculinity rather than a reformation of it. This also turns into a sins of the father issue where young men are told, at the very least, that they are complacent in these systems.
It creates a very dangerous mentality where young men seeking help either isolate into some very dark places or violently lash out. This comment section is a decent example of what I’m on about.
Ugh I get that so much 😭. That was literally me at 14. Now I'm like "I understand your in pain but also stop arguing about this where they are talking about trans people/cis woman." Like I understand they're not happy people but at some point it's like....dude this is not the time nor the place
Male suicide is talked about a lot. The unfair distribution of college funds is talked about a lot. The blatant sexism in Family Court is talked about a lot.
It's just that people will ignore that and instead create a conspiracy theory that these only get mentioned as a whataboutism. Even though they're being discussed all the time. It's just that no one seems to care.
You can go to the family law, suicide watch, and college scholarship and grants subreddits and see these discussions.
They aren't being weaponized. We are being gaslit into thinking they are. And the reason for the gaslighting is to...checks notes...ignore those issues.
I do agree with this, but be careful because you are doing it too!
This was posted and saying men deserves human rights, and here you are talking about women and trans rights! I understand why and completely agree but you are ‘one of those people’ (even if you are doing it the other way around)
It’ll also help if every time men brought up issues, they weren’t drowned out by (self proclaimed) feminists saying women have it worse, that the fault of the issue is on men, or just calling them incels for daring to care about an issue only affecting men.
It's baffling how many men will look at the draft and instead of having the obvious opinion of "military drafts are horrible and nobody should be subjected to them," they'll say "If women want equal rights they should be drafted as well."
Like, at that point it's obvious they don't give a shit about the well-being of men. They just want an excuse to make women suffer.
To be fair, even when those men do bring up those issues on their own, it seems the reverse also seem to happen, where the issue is downplayed as not being as bad as women’s issues, or other women bringing up their own issues as worse. If you bring up male issues at all, people will instantly accuse you of decentering women and that you are hateful, and I honestly think it’s because they already have their own narratives that those issues do not matter.
I see both happening all the time. In my experience, almost everytime someone mentions issues people of a certain gender face, they get loads of responses about the issues other genders face, especially on Reddit. It's like they see it as a competition
Aren’t you literally doing that by taking something meant to be pointing out men’s issues and immediately dismissing it with whataboutism of your own?
Basically any form of talk about male issues is immediately drowned out by people screaming ‘incel’ ‘mra’ or some form of ‘we can’t talk about this because women have it worse’.
Almost every genuine attempt to talk about male issues gets shouted down by disingenuous people basically saying they shouldn’t be talked about with exactly the rhetoric you are using now.
Feminist issues and males issues aren’t mutually exclusive and shouldn’t be at odds with one another.
Nope. Not doing that. I've talked with plenty of people about male issues, and haven't been called an incel for it. It's just.. I tend not to do it when someone else in the conversation is having issues that are more immediate than mine, y'know?
You literally just said men ‘only and exclusively’ mention their issues as a whataboutism to dismiss women - and then did a 180 when confronted and admit what you just said was clearly untrue.
His comment is slightly badly worded, but I’m fairly sure he wasn’t saying “all men” like you’re implying, but more specifically “those men” as in those that only bring it up to dismiss conversations about the struggles women face. He definitely should’ve been more specific though.
In other words, I think you’re misinterpreting his argument.
Also, saying that he’s doing the same thing (dismissing discussions about some group’s struggles) even though he quite clearly is acknowledging them in both comments feels a bit unfair.
In his original comment, he said “it’d help” clearly implying he would like to discuss men’s struggles, but many of the times he’s seen it brought up, it’s not to actually discuss but only to dismiss someone else’s struggles.
Also, in a funny way, I could also argue that your comment is doing the same thing: dismissing the problem that’s brought up using whataboutism: “what about the people that only bring this up to dismiss discussions on men’s struggles?”
Yes, some people bring it up to dismiss discussions on men’s struggles, but also, yes some people bring up men’s struggles to dismiss women’s struggles.
Ironically, despite you mentioning how discussions on these issues aren’t mutually exclusive, you imply the issue he brought up inherently conflicts with the issue of men’s struggles despite his intentions, therefore implying that discussions of these 2 issues are somehow mutually exclusive, despite them being on topic.
Also, he didn’t “do a 180”, he just clarified his intentions weren’t to dismiss discussions on men’s struggles.
The point is to shine light on the fact that a decent amount of people only bring up men’s struggles to dismiss some other people’s struggles, the same way that the point of discussing any issue is to shine light on it. That means something right?
Also, I think reducing his argument to “people who do this do this“ makes no sense. How does that apply to what he said?
if his argument really was like what you said, it would be “people who talk about men’s struggles talk about men’s struggles”. In that case, I’d agree that it’s a meaningless, redundant statement. But his comment wasn’t like that, wasn’t it?
His comment was “many people who talk about men’s struggles do this to dismiss other people’s struggles”, which isn’t redundant and has meaning.
also, I don’t see how the placement of “only and exclusively” in his sentence matters, nor does it somehow make his statement redundant.
Also, your response isn’t related to a single thing in my own comment, so why are you responding to me? You’re comment is far more meaningless than his since it quite literally doesn’t convey any meaning (not an opinion, stance or rebuttal) in relation to what I said.
This is incredibly true and frustrating. No genuine, nuanced conversation can be had about misandry or things that men struggle with without a crowd of incels gathering and excitedly nodding and clapping.
For me it’s not incels, but even other “feminist” and feminist ally’s who don’t help by either downplaying the issue, or blaming the issue back onto men as a gotcha.
On one side you have male incels who agree with you because they think that women are evil and are responsible for the suffering of all men. On the other side you have female incels who cannot imagine a man having human emotions or suffering. Both of these archetypes tend to be very loud and chronically online so their stances tend to be over represented on the internet.
I know right? It's always "Uh-huh, and when is FATHERS day? I bet you don't even know!" and never "Hey dad, I love you. Mind if I come over this weekend?"
You did exactly that and "it'd help if those same men" this doesn't excuse anything. I could come with a lot of bs using the same logic. You are just lying by saying that they only do it for that reason.
Also, a lot of ppl do that, someone mentions mental health and someone answers "but most men don't share their emotions thanks to toxic masculinity", someone says something about men's DV or SA victims "but men are the ones mocking them", "it's the patriarchy", etc
That almost never happens. When these accusations come up, it's usually because feminists make a claim of female victimhood and male privilege that's incorrect in the first place. They assume men have it better than women, the responder brings up a male issue to challenge that nation, and gets accused of whataboutism.
Also, when men make their own groups to bring attention to those issues, they're demonized even further for it, to the point of protests and smear campaigns. In other words, the only men's issues activism that feminists tolerate is the one they have authority over. Don't talk to me about "weaponized" activism.
are you also against blm, mr cis boy??😭😭are you also against womens rights just because its about one particular problem like what 😭 what is this victim blaming
I know you're just ragebaiting, but I'll indulge. It's not about it being about "one particular problem". It's about the problem, and the discussion around it, being brought up only in response to people talking about other issues. The issue itself is weaponized in order to derail any discussion on other issues of more marginalized people, which also undermines the actual issue itself.
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u/TheReaperAbides 29d ago
It'd help if those same men (and I say this as a cis guy) would stop bringing up men's issues only and exclusively as a whataboutism in response to women's/trans rights/issues.
If you cared about these issues so much, you wouldn't have weaponized them to this extent.