Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men. This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness. Unlike women, men are expendable (have no inherent social value), so if they don't take accountability and step in line, no one will care. They have to be the stoic ones in society. This is the way it is, and most men have to accept it.
Well i don’t know where you’re from but men can be stay at home fathers too? It’s not as common, but definitely something that happens and something you could do.
Not to mention that you’d need a spouse who can afford that, but who are we kidding pretending most women and their spouses can afford that. Especially when the woman is already broke. Can’t be broke and living on a single person income in most cases.
It's the truth. Men have no inherent social value, they have to earn something to mean something. They have to fight or create to be valuable. It's just biology. This is the deeper reason why men's mental health or men's rights or men's anything will never be a big thing. Most men can't take pride in being men, instead it's what they do that they take pride in.
See, I don't get what you're saying at all. I'm an unemployed gamer who smokes weed like a chimney all day but I have a loving family, tons of friends, and a fiancee with a high paying job who will support me forever
If what you're saying is true, shouldn't I be alone and sad?
Somewhere out there is a woman (like my mother), who has earned more money than any man she ever worked with, who doesn't believe women face hardships or issues in the workplace because of what she personally experienced. Should we listen to her (the exception) more than we listen to the rule?
I have two buddies in your same lifestyle, yet they don't have the same benefits you do. Why? Because you're the expcetion, not the rule.
You can find insane exceptions for everything on this planet. It doesn't mean that's the standard.
I think that on an individual level, this is mostly true. Most women care about men and their needs. I would say i did run into tons of misandry when i worked in feminist spaces, and faced a lot of prejudice and distrust for being a man.
However, even if individual women care, this doesn't translate to institutional support of men's needs. There aren't scholarships for men to enter fields of work dominated by women, such as teaching, nursing, psychology; support groups directed specifically at men's needs don't really exist, and personally the ones i saw were focused on preventing men from committing domestic violence instead of treating their personal needs. There just isn't institutional support for men and, ironically, when people attempted to start it, they were shut down.
Men also suffer under patriarchy and suffer from toxic masculinity, also being victims of these. In theory, they should also be receiving support, but it just doesn't happen, and i would say it is caused by an acceptance and normalization of misandry in feminism.
Yeah right meanwhile misandrists literally use hashtags like #KillAllMen, while man have a way higher suicide rate and are more likely to get their life ruined by false accusations
Agreed. Simailr to a misogynist, someone who’s NOT misandrist has no real reason to defend or downplay misandry as at worst “annoying” when talking about mens issues.
The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods. A firearm as opposed to an overdose.
That’s why women report more suicide attempts despite men having a higher suicide rate itself. So the stat isn’t as black and white in terms of pointing out a gender disparity that people try and use it for.
You can attempt suicide multiple times and what can be reported as suicide attempts is very vague, while an actual suicide is pretty clear and can't be repeated, so I dont think those things are even
Also men are way less likely a report a suicide attempt compared to women or even be counted as such, if a guy tries to overdose, he probably would just be labeled as drug junkie
It's like literally survivorship bias mixed with whataboutism
Like your whole reasoning does not even make sense "The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods", like thats not an actual reasoning, its just means suicidal men are more likely to actually kill themselves, but it doesnt explain the actual reason for it, is it because women are not smart enough to kill themselves despite wanting it as much as the men? Or because the men want it more and for women its rather a cry for attention? Or men are less likely to report it, so it only seems like women are attempting more? Like there could be many reasons
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
The fact is, and it’s not refutable, is that men favor more effective methods despite making fewer attempts.
Instead of being outraged by the loss of life (90% of those that make an attempt go on to NOT die by suicide, so it’s extra tragic that men choose firearms because if they were less likely to succeed in their first attempt they would be more likely to never die by suicide) you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Suicidal ideation is not just a chip to play when arguing gender politics
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
Thats just sad, you apparently cant even use the term suicidal ideation properly, because that means suicidal thoughts and not suicide attempts lmao, but sure you wrote a masters thesis on a subject were you dont even know the the definitions of words and i am britney spears btw
And you couldnt even address one point of my comment, like how men being less likely to report attempts would affect it, or why men are more likely to use more deadly attempts, or how a men who tries to overdose himself would be more likely labelled as someone with a drug problem who just took too much or how the definition of attempt can be very vague
Instead you wrote a multiple paragraph comment addressing nothing of substance and instead just claim that you know it better and that i am wrong, while smelling your own farts, because you wrote a masters on a subject which you cant even properly discuss, like yeah right
you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Like what stats am i even supposed to be mad about? That men are more likely to successfully kill themselves?
Whats the tile of your thesis? "Men suicides dont matter as much as women suicide attempts, because women are less likely to successfully kill themselves and why that is mens fault" and let me guess, your "thesis" was published in a reddit post?
And you couldnt even address one point of my comment,
That's a pattern for this commenter and most people like this when they face evidence based opposition to their points of view. They ignore most of the comment to which they're replying. Look at how my replies went entirely ignored as well.
"Men suicides dont matter as much as women suicide attempts, because women are less likely to successfully kill themselves and why that is mens fault"
Sincerely what this person likely believes. Also, it's so ironic that this thread started because /u/Frescoitaliano was saying they don't know too many toxic women and feminists, but sprinted to defend misandry.
Edit: my bad, it was /u/Terryfalcone. They also don't reply when they've lost.
No, Misandry does kill, such as women killing their ex’s for cheating (something that’s deemed misognry) or women simply chopping off their spouses genitalia when their spouse makes them mad. More commonly However Misandry seems to justify all sorts of verbal, sexual, and physical abuse towards men via whole ideal of “men are stronger/if a woman hits him, he must’ve done something wrong” that tends to come from even some women defending or downplaying abuse
The problem with this commonly used quote “Misandry annoys, misognry kills” is that you are purposely comparing the extreme (killing) to something lesser (annoy) in order to downplay 1 form of hatred and defend the other. This can be done with any form of hated if you have that narrative in mind to downplay one over. It’s a bad faith argument to begin with.
When a majority-female government makes men’s health care illegal; when we live in a country in which 100% of heads of state throughout its 250-year history have been women; when most men have been sexually harassed by adult women since childhood; when parents teach their sons not to walk alone at night because they’re afraid women will rape them; when your grandfather wasn’t allowed to have a credit card in his own name, but could only use his wife’s; then misandry will be the same thing as misogyny.
You know, growing up, millenials were taught everyone is equal. Caring about men's issues doesn't limit also caring about women's issues. Circa 2014, there was a huge push for men's rights and their needs, which was hatefully rejected by feminist institutions. These movements were mocked, ridiculed, and called misogynist. I genuinely believe if feminism had made space for men at the table in regards to gendered suffering, Trump would've lost and we wouldn't be facing a huge rise in American fascism.
But here we are. AstroTurfing russians magnified misandrist views on the left and directed men away from them and progressives towards real misogyny in conservatives. Your argument that misogyny is worse is one I agree with, but your conclusion is that because it is worse, misandry shouldn't matter, which I disagree with. In the end, it was you who won the argument, and it denied men support, purpose, and belonging.
So, okay, you won. Men don't get scholarships to enter women dominated fields. They don't get gendered mental support. Nothing is done to reduce their increased suicide rate, loneliness or self harming behaviours, such as addictions. You convinced the powers that be that men's gendered issues didn't matter, and they're all men's fault and men also abuse women anyways, so obviously they deserve them.
There you go, you won. Men got nothing, like you wanted, and it only cost men's support for progressivism. You broke the promise of equality, and men turned away from the left and from progressivism and from gender theory and from feminism. And now everyone, including the men you shunned, will suffer the results.
You won the war against the average man and drove most to apathy and many others to the arms of humanity's enemy, sincerely evil misogynist rich fucks. So before you keep sputtering drivel in defense of hatred, remember that we all need each other, and justifying hatred towards men will only ensure women continue losing rights.
Men don’t necessarly receive gendered health care to begin with, we already live in a world where many men during childhood have been sexually assaulted or abused by women, parents SHOULD teach their sons that yes, women can indeed harm them, a random woman at night is a stranger regardless because just like stranger men, some women do have ill intent, or DO rape or assault people (yet it’s not taken into stat or legally consedered rape), and my grandfather unfortunately had no money, likely no card, and that’s because it was a poor family.
Regardless you should combat misandry alongside like how you would misogony rather than downplay the other. Not bring up unrelated issues just because you don’t want to see misandry as bad.
Why is your argument that they have to be equivalent to combat misandry? You realize you're defending hatred, right? Also, I wouldn't call men's heightened workplace deaths, combat deaths, and suicide rates an annoyance. Maybe just admit you don't care about men's issues and prove my point.
Who started male support groups and got them shut down? Well, one notable example was Earl Silverman, a domestic abuse victim who couldn't find any domestic abuse shelters that accepted men when he fled from his violent wife in 1991. The only ones he found were anger management groups (which tracks with my experience), which revictimized him by assuming he was the perpetrator of the abuse. He opened a shelter in 2011 for men and was forced to close it down in 2013 due to lack of funding (institutional support, like I stated above). He sold the shelter and committed suicide the next day.
Educate yourself. Your pithy gotcha lines are reductionist and will make turn others against you. Stop defending hatred. The more you do, the more ammunition you give to real misogynists to convince average men to move further right. You are losing the ideological battle and taking all us progressives and leftists with you.
EXACTLY. "misandry" ends at calling a man short online. misogyny bars women from being educated, from having reproduction rights, from being able to inherit land and be equal citizens. they can never be equated.
This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness.
They have to be the stoic ones in society.
This is literally textbook toxic masculinity. So yes, if this is the problem you're having then toxic masculinity is in fact the root of that problem.
And it's not necessarily an issue that needs to be fixed
Men being driven to harmful and often self-destructive behaviors because we're not allowed to express emotion in a healthy and reasonable way absolutely is an issue that needs to be fixed.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men
Mens mental health months is a perfect example, actually. It's in June, conveniently overlapping with pride month. And so all you ever hear about men's mental health month is when it's to drown out mentions of pride.
They could have picked any other month. June has had LGBTQ significance since the Stonewall riots in the 60s. Men's Mental Health Week has only existed since 1994 (and was established by a Republican), which eventually turned into a month somewhere in the early 2000s.
It's not about "society" being uncomfortable with men expressing vulnerability. It's about men's mental health issues, which are very real, being coopted by bigots in order to drown out the issues of marginalized people.
Except, as has already been pointed out, hardly anyone even knows that men's mental health month is in June because everyone associates it with pride month.
Nope. Because a handful of bigots have loudly coopted men's mental health issues to silence LGBT struggles, I am now forced to speak out against these practices to weed out the bigots and make people aware of their existence.
Bigots have no place in talks about any kind of social issues, they just serve to poison the well. They don't help the conversation on either side.
The uncomfortable truth is that no one gives a fuck, because men can never be a marginalized group. "Men" as a group can never be deserving of sympathy or special attention. Think about it.
No, I've thought about it. Men, as a group, can be plenty deserving of sympathy or special attention. But what doesn't help is when these issues are brought up not to talk about the issues, but as a deflection or attack or the issues of other groups. As you're doing right now.
Actually you're deflecting. My comments have always been about how society thinks about men's issues, No sudden change here. If you don't want to have a conversation about that, then that's fine.
100% this. All anyone ever does to combat this talking point is mention one-off anecdotes, or hyper exceptions.
But when we look at how most men are treated, the rule is society doesn't give a shit. Hence, why were the ones drafted to go die in a foreign country when society needs a meat shield.
men as a group can never be deserving of sympathy or special attention
Sorry, I commented on your root post that I hadn’t experienced what you described already, but just wanted to add comment here.
This just isn’t true. I and all my male friends experience sympathy, when things happen that affect us people from outside our social circles express sympathy for us. On an individual level, I’d guess I’ve been the recipient of both sympathy and special attention roughly as much as anyone else.
But even on a group level, I also experience sympathy and special attention from other parts of my identity. Yeah, maleness isn’t so often explicitly called out to be celebrated (though it is, just not as frequently) but that’s one of the consequences of us being treated as the default. But I get to participate in other celebrations from the groups in part of. And not just like, inherent identity. Yeah I participate in pride stuff and that’s great, but even on the level of like, entertainment or sports or all the myriad other little things that make up me. People commiserate when stuff we like gets canceled, I get to share hype with friends when our soccer team does well.
Maleness doesn’t exclude me from sympathy or special attention at all, and I’m not sure how anyone could reach that idea unless they are only trying to find sympathy and special attention in maleness.
That's great. Don't let me rain on your parade. I have a very different outllook and experience, and guess what, I'll never tell you you're wrong. I do believe the average male experience is unlike yours though.
I’d ask you to consider the second half of my post, not just my lived experience. Specifically the idea that sympathy and special attention are abundant as long as you’re not exclusively looking for them in maleness.
I don’t want you to feel like I’m lecturing you or being condescending, but I’m not sure how else to write this. I’ve seen what you’re describing (always feeling like you have to play the stoic, feeling deprived categorically of sympathy) but not as some universal quality, but only in my friends who are suffering from depression (male and female, for what it’s worth). I’d disagree it’s most men’s experiences, but I can understand seeing it that way when you’re in. This is stupid because I don’t know you, but I do hope you find something to help pull you out of it.
Calling what Reddit does a "celebration" for any of these is a stretch. Mostly rhey juat use it as another excuse to bitch about women. Men's Mental Health month isnt as bad as International Men's Day, probably because its a whole month, but i almost never see actual positive posts about either.
This is basically the crux of the problem, men aren't allowed to insinuate that any of the problems they face are perpetuated by women, because women can do no wrong.
Nah this is too self-deprecating. Men do have inherent social value, every human does. It’s just that it’s exceptionally confusing what mental health issues are socially acceptable to express within a feminist framework. If he can’t talk about his issues without experiencing prejudice(against him), scrutiny and judgement, he’s not going to open up. There’s little benefit to him. And bad feminism worsens this issue, because it’s disbelieving. It demands vulnerability from men, but punishes them when they show it. (E.g. toxic masculinity)
I can think of several rights that women have that men don't. Reproductive rights for one. I can think of a dozen advantages (and favorability) that women are given over men in school, finances, divorces, etc. There's a reason women college grads are increasing and men are rapidly decreasing. Just look at the numbers.
Women have a right to paid maternity leave and other things. It's not very good in the US, but better in other countries. This is a cost to the company, and another right afforded to women.
im pretty sure by "other countries" you are imagining europe and australia in your head. let me remind you that the majority of the worlds population lives in asia and africa, where the wage gap VERY MUCH still exists and is VERY WIDE.
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For one example - Men absolutely have more rights to bodily autonomy and medical privacy in the USA.
And, let us not pretend that the MAGA Nazis arent implementing Project 2025, which very clearly states that they want to take away a woman's right to vote. They are even rolling out the "Save Act" which will effectively disenfranchise many women and punish them for changing their last names after marriage...as society pushed them to do...as a means for restricting their freedom of expression and ability to vote for representation
If we are keeping things honest women aren't forced to register for selective service and be drafted in the event of a military emergency. I'm not going to argue that women don't have it bad but men's issues are serious and need to stop being down played. Suicide, graduation rates, even pay for millennials all favor women now. It's great that we've managed to help out women but it has been done at the expense of men and we need to start reaching out to them in the same way that education and the work force was changed to help women without taking away the gains that have been made.
Men are more employed AND get paid more. The country has only ever been run by a man. Women may go to college more now, and so what? They get saddled with the debt just to ultimately make less anyway and face various forms of employment discrimination. If they get pregnant? Career death if not an actual possible death sentence in some states. Their living body has less rights than their corpse. Who runs all the massive companies controlling America? Men again. 🤔
The rich old white men are doing fine. Us average men are not. That is the issue, if you take out the top 1% of men, it tells an entirely different story.
The gender pay gap is based on a statistic of ALL men's wages and ALL womens wages pooled together with no compensation for different careers, different benefits, maternity leave, frequency of demanding raises, stay at home parents, etc. Studies have shown men are far more likely to forego benefits, work overtime, and take riskier jobs in exchange for more money. When differences in career and benefits are accounted for, the pay gap is either eliminated, or drops to a couple percent depending on field, which is explained by men being far more likely to repeatedly demand raises or quit and get a new job.
The reality is ALL of us are underpaid, not just women. Although there are certainly examples of sexist bosses denying raises or pushing women out of jobs, the "Gender Pay Gap" statistic is misleading, and mostly used to promote misinformation because people enjoy feeling like victims.
Having worked in those riskier fields with higher pay, I feel that you’re overlooking the way women are systemically kept out of those fields, though. It isn’t a choice that women are collectively making wherein they say “oooo, I don’t wanna get dirty, so I won’t be a confined space specialist or a welder!” In most cases.
It’s cartoonishly obvious sexism. When I did this stuff around 2015, there were plenty of foremen who would look you in the eye and say shit like “we don’t hire women, they’re too emotional for this shit” or “their place aint in the workforce, they belong with the children” or whatnot. The sort of stuff that would have felt ham fisted and like a fantasy of obvious sexism in a work of fiction were these dude’s day to day expressions. I was a field guy all over the place— I witnessed behavior like that in Texas, Tennessee, Indiana, Illinois, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Maryland. Not just the places I expected to see it, but scattered throughout the country.
Women were systemically kept out of those fields for a very long time, but in recent times, the stats show something different going on. 2015 is 10 years ago, but we've made a lot of leaps since then. Remember, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in the United States until 2015. Much of the nation has become more and more progressive since then and that applies to both genders.
I don't think anyone is trying to erase the history, but it's important to realize things have moved along way from what they used to be. Even 2005 to 2015 is drastically different.
All that said, the stats still say that women are more likely to choose careers that align with their gender stereotypes.
Although there are certainly examples of sexist bosses denying raises or pushing women out of jobs,
Gee whiz it's almost like I literally said that in my comment. You wrote as much as I did, have the courtesy to at least read everything I wrote.
I'll be more specific with the problem I am addressing. The commenter I responded to seems to believe women are paid less than men for doing the same job, which is a common misconception. My goal is to inform people that men and women doing the same job almost always get paid the same or very similarly when considering benefits. I am not saying "Oh there is no more employment discrimination" which is why I specifically stated that those problems still exist.
I think you're confusing societal inequalities with a lack of rights, which isn't really the case. Relying on "rights" as your vehicle to explain these things limits your overall point and hurts it more than it helps it.
Legally, both men and women possess the right of bodily autonomy, but it's complex when you consider the concept of abortions, which men physically cannot have, and this is only limited to specific states. I'm absolutely pro-choice, but it's hard to call this a right that's taken away from a handful of states with specific rules of when abortion is and isn't reasonable and it's hard to call it inequal when men don't technical experience abortions or birth. That isn't it to say it isn't a talking point, but it's not one when saying "men have more rights than women." Men simply cannot have abortions, and many do not have rights to paper abortions in multiple states.
MAGA Nazis and Project 2025 are absolutely insane, but again, they haven't taken away your rights yet. It's a scary thing and I don't want it just as the next reasonable person, but no one has lost their gender-based or sex-based rights from this.
I think we need to look at the societal differences because those are far more important to discuss than rights, because it's those differences right there that end up shaping those rights or lack thereof.
I'm saying rights to abortions aren't something men have either because they cannot experience abortions in the same way. Even paper abortions, which are an option, are not legal in many more states.
Considering abortions are still legal in many states, wouldn't men have less rights in this regard? I personally feel like this topic too complicated to say it's a rights thing and it's not an equal enough subject to consider it in topics of equality.
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u/pianodude7 29d ago
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men. This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness. Unlike women, men are expendable (have no inherent social value), so if they don't take accountability and step in line, no one will care. They have to be the stoic ones in society. This is the way it is, and most men have to accept it.