It'd help if those same men (and I say this as a cis guy) would stop bringing up men's issues only and exclusively as a whataboutism in response to women's/trans rights/issues.
If you cared about these issues so much, you wouldn't have weaponized them to this extent.
Mens mental health month exists but nobody gives a fuck, including men. This is because society isn't comfortable with men expressing vulnerability or weakness. Unlike women, men are expendable (have no inherent social value), so if they don't take accountability and step in line, no one will care. They have to be the stoic ones in society. This is the way it is, and most men have to accept it.
I think that on an individual level, this is mostly true. Most women care about men and their needs. I would say i did run into tons of misandry when i worked in feminist spaces, and faced a lot of prejudice and distrust for being a man.
However, even if individual women care, this doesn't translate to institutional support of men's needs. There aren't scholarships for men to enter fields of work dominated by women, such as teaching, nursing, psychology; support groups directed specifically at men's needs don't really exist, and personally the ones i saw were focused on preventing men from committing domestic violence instead of treating their personal needs. There just isn't institutional support for men and, ironically, when people attempted to start it, they were shut down.
Men also suffer under patriarchy and suffer from toxic masculinity, also being victims of these. In theory, they should also be receiving support, but it just doesn't happen, and i would say it is caused by an acceptance and normalization of misandry in feminism.
Yeah right meanwhile misandrists literally use hashtags like #KillAllMen, while man have a way higher suicide rate and are more likely to get their life ruined by false accusations
Agreed. Simailr to a misogynist, someone who’s NOT misandrist has no real reason to defend or downplay misandry as at worst “annoying” when talking about mens issues.
The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods. A firearm as opposed to an overdose.
That’s why women report more suicide attempts despite men having a higher suicide rate itself. So the stat isn’t as black and white in terms of pointing out a gender disparity that people try and use it for.
You can attempt suicide multiple times and what can be reported as suicide attempts is very vague, while an actual suicide is pretty clear and can't be repeated, so I dont think those things are even
Also men are way less likely a report a suicide attempt compared to women or even be counted as such, if a guy tries to overdose, he probably would just be labeled as drug junkie
It's like literally survivorship bias mixed with whataboutism
Like your whole reasoning does not even make sense "The higher suicide rate is generally attributed to picking more effective suicide methods", like thats not an actual reasoning, its just means suicidal men are more likely to actually kill themselves, but it doesnt explain the actual reason for it, is it because women are not smart enough to kill themselves despite wanting it as much as the men? Or because the men want it more and for women its rather a cry for attention? Or men are less likely to report it, so it only seems like women are attempting more? Like there could be many reasons
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
The fact is, and it’s not refutable, is that men favor more effective methods despite making fewer attempts.
Instead of being outraged by the loss of life (90% of those that make an attempt go on to NOT die by suicide, so it’s extra tragic that men choose firearms because if they were less likely to succeed in their first attempt they would be more likely to never die by suicide) you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Suicidal ideation is not just a chip to play when arguing gender politics
It’s the kind of bullshit I built my masters in biostatistics thesis around lol
Thanks for your “open” mind but you don’t need to explain the difference between suicide and suicidal ideation.
Thats just sad, you apparently cant even use the term suicidal ideation properly, because that means suicidal thoughts and not suicide attempts lmao, but sure you wrote a masters thesis on a subject were you dont even know the the definitions of words and i am britney spears btw
And you couldnt even address one point of my comment, like how men being less likely to report attempts would affect it, or why men are more likely to use more deadly attempts, or how a men who tries to overdose himself would be more likely labelled as someone with a drug problem who just took too much or how the definition of attempt can be very vague
Instead you wrote a multiple paragraph comment addressing nothing of substance and instead just claim that you know it better and that i am wrong, while smelling your own farts, because you wrote a masters on a subject which you cant even properly discuss, like yeah right
you got mad that the stats don’t say exactly what you want them to.
Like what stats am i even supposed to be mad about? That men are more likely to successfully kill themselves?
Whats the tile of your thesis? "Men suicides dont matter as much as women suicide attempts, because women are less likely to successfully kill themselves and why that is mens fault" and let me guess, your "thesis" was published in a reddit post?
And you couldnt even address one point of my comment,
That's a pattern for this commenter and most people like this when they face evidence based opposition to their points of view. They ignore most of the comment to which they're replying. Look at how my replies went entirely ignored as well.
"Men suicides dont matter as much as women suicide attempts, because women are less likely to successfully kill themselves and why that is mens fault"
Sincerely what this person likely believes. Also, it's so ironic that this thread started because /u/Frescoitaliano was saying they don't know too many toxic women and feminists, but sprinted to defend misandry.
Edit: my bad, it was /u/Terryfalcone. They also don't reply when they've lost.
No, Misandry does kill, such as women killing their ex’s for cheating (something that’s deemed misognry) or women simply chopping off their spouses genitalia when their spouse makes them mad. More commonly However Misandry seems to justify all sorts of verbal, sexual, and physical abuse towards men via whole ideal of “men are stronger/if a woman hits him, he must’ve done something wrong” that tends to come from even some women defending or downplaying abuse
The problem with this commonly used quote “Misandry annoys, misognry kills” is that you are purposely comparing the extreme (killing) to something lesser (annoy) in order to downplay 1 form of hatred and defend the other. This can be done with any form of hated if you have that narrative in mind to downplay one over. It’s a bad faith argument to begin with.
When a majority-female government makes men’s health care illegal; when we live in a country in which 100% of heads of state throughout its 250-year history have been women; when most men have been sexually harassed by adult women since childhood; when parents teach their sons not to walk alone at night because they’re afraid women will rape them; when your grandfather wasn’t allowed to have a credit card in his own name, but could only use his wife’s; then misandry will be the same thing as misogyny.
You know, growing up, millenials were taught everyone is equal. Caring about men's issues doesn't limit also caring about women's issues. Circa 2014, there was a huge push for men's rights and their needs, which was hatefully rejected by feminist institutions. These movements were mocked, ridiculed, and called misogynist. I genuinely believe if feminism had made space for men at the table in regards to gendered suffering, Trump would've lost and we wouldn't be facing a huge rise in American fascism.
But here we are. AstroTurfing russians magnified misandrist views on the left and directed men away from them and progressives towards real misogyny in conservatives. Your argument that misogyny is worse is one I agree with, but your conclusion is that because it is worse, misandry shouldn't matter, which I disagree with. In the end, it was you who won the argument, and it denied men support, purpose, and belonging.
So, okay, you won. Men don't get scholarships to enter women dominated fields. They don't get gendered mental support. Nothing is done to reduce their increased suicide rate, loneliness or self harming behaviours, such as addictions. You convinced the powers that be that men's gendered issues didn't matter, and they're all men's fault and men also abuse women anyways, so obviously they deserve them.
There you go, you won. Men got nothing, like you wanted, and it only cost men's support for progressivism. You broke the promise of equality, and men turned away from the left and from progressivism and from gender theory and from feminism. And now everyone, including the men you shunned, will suffer the results.
You won the war against the average man and drove most to apathy and many others to the arms of humanity's enemy, sincerely evil misogynist rich fucks. So before you keep sputtering drivel in defense of hatred, remember that we all need each other, and justifying hatred towards men will only ensure women continue losing rights.
Men don’t necessarly receive gendered health care to begin with, we already live in a world where many men during childhood have been sexually assaulted or abused by women, parents SHOULD teach their sons that yes, women can indeed harm them, a random woman at night is a stranger regardless because just like stranger men, some women do have ill intent, or DO rape or assault people (yet it’s not taken into stat or legally consedered rape), and my grandfather unfortunately had no money, likely no card, and that’s because it was a poor family.
Regardless you should combat misandry alongside like how you would misogony rather than downplay the other. Not bring up unrelated issues just because you don’t want to see misandry as bad.
Why is your argument that they have to be equivalent to combat misandry? You realize you're defending hatred, right? Also, I wouldn't call men's heightened workplace deaths, combat deaths, and suicide rates an annoyance. Maybe just admit you don't care about men's issues and prove my point.
Who started male support groups and got them shut down? Well, one notable example was Earl Silverman, a domestic abuse victim who couldn't find any domestic abuse shelters that accepted men when he fled from his violent wife in 1991. The only ones he found were anger management groups (which tracks with my experience), which revictimized him by assuming he was the perpetrator of the abuse. He opened a shelter in 2011 for men and was forced to close it down in 2013 due to lack of funding (institutional support, like I stated above). He sold the shelter and committed suicide the next day.
Educate yourself. Your pithy gotcha lines are reductionist and will make turn others against you. Stop defending hatred. The more you do, the more ammunition you give to real misogynists to convince average men to move further right. You are losing the ideological battle and taking all us progressives and leftists with you.
EXACTLY. "misandry" ends at calling a man short online. misogyny bars women from being educated, from having reproduction rights, from being able to inherit land and be equal citizens. they can never be equated.
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u/TheReaperAbides 29d ago
It'd help if those same men (and I say this as a cis guy) would stop bringing up men's issues only and exclusively as a whataboutism in response to women's/trans rights/issues.
If you cared about these issues so much, you wouldn't have weaponized them to this extent.