What is the Asia version of still thinking about the Roman Empire?

[u/gekkoheir]

I am not sure if you're aware, but there is a trend and discussions on the English-language internet about how in Western countries men still think about the Roman Empire more than women? There isn't a whole lot of research done on this topic, but it still makes for pretty meme-worthy activity.

So this example is obviously Western-centric. I would like to know, what is the Asian version of still thinking about an old empire from ages ago who still has a lot of influence. It doesn't have to be all of Asia, it could be localized to your region.

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u/gekkoheir's post title:

"What is the Asia version of still thinking about the Roman Empire?"

u/gekkoheir's post body:

I am not sure if you're aware, but there is a trend and discussions on the English-language internet about how in Western countries men still think about the Roman Empire more than women? There isn't a whole lot of research done on this topic, but it still makes for pretty meme-worthy activity.

So this example is obviously Western-centric. I would like to know, what is the Asian version of still thinking about an old empire from ages ago who still has a lot of influence. It doesn't have to be all of Asia, it could be localized to your region.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Queendrakumar]

There is no "Roman Empire" of Asia in a sense that there was no ancient unifying empire where all the other countries came out of or at the very least heavily influenced by. It just doesn't exist in Asia.

Narrowing down to East Asia only, the polity that was as much ancient, and powerful and large and influential was Han dynasty (3rd century BCE to 200 CE). In terms of cultural influence it is East Asia's version of Rome.

• Rome's writing system was borrowed by all other European countries contemporaneously or later in history. This ranges from iceland to portugal to Finland to Denmark to France to Poland to Romania. Not all these countries were ancient Roman peripheries, but they all had recieved Roman writing system. English, for instance, does not have English's own writing system. It borrows from Roman writing system. That was Han dynasty writing system - hanzi (or Han characters)

• Rome's state religion (Christianity) was spread to all of Europe and changed European history and philosophy forever. Han China resulted from a period called Warring State where philosophical backbone of China - called Hundred Schools was born. This is when East Asian philosophies were born (such as Confucianism, Mohism, Taoism, Legalism, etc.)

These two things - the writing system and the philosophical backbone - that spread from Han dynasty to the nearby cultures result in what we today call Sinosphere or "Traditional East Asian Cultural sphere" that ranges from Vietnam to South, Manchuria to North, Korea to East and Japan across the sea.

Now, when it comes to whether Korea (or other East Asian countries) identify to have been sharing Han dynasty as a cultural root is a completely different story. Unlike Europe, East Asia was never separated out of Han dynasty the same manner France and Hispania came out of Roman Empire. So in that sense Han is not the Rome of Korea, for instance.

When it comes to Korea specifically, that ancient empire is Goguryeo which is the namesake of where "Korea" etymologically comes from. I personally find this common notion a bit too nationalistic as Goguryeo was never hegemonically influential as Rome or Han. (But it was still a very strong kingdom that had Manchurians and Koreans under its rule, defeated China multiple times and exerted powerful cultural influence to Manchuria and Korea). Ultimately however, Goguryeo was also influenced by China's writing system as well. In that sense, it still falls under Han's hegemonical influence in ancient East Asia. But nonetheless, most Koreans seem to fathom Goguryeo as this ancient proud Korean kingdom of the past.

[u/Ghenym → u/Queendrakumar]

There is doubt as to whether the Goguryeo people are the ancestors of today's Koreans.

[u/airkorzeyan → u/Queendrakumar]

How common is the notion of maintaining racial purity among Koreans? Even north Korea deported white Russian women to avoid polluting the race

[u/Queendrakumar → u/airkorzeyan]

North Korea has juche ideology as their national foundation - which is all about self-reliance and avoidance of foreignness.

South Korea used to be highly ethnonationalistic during the peak of dictatorship in the 60s, 70s and early 80s and all school education was centered around "Korean ethnicity". This sense of ethnic purity started doing away from mainstream society and in education in the late 80s and 90s after more democratic education started taking place. Therefore people that grew up and went to school in the 60s 70s and early 80s (i.e. people born prior to the mid 70s) tend to be way more about national purity. People born after mid-70s are much less about purity. So there's a generational divide. (You can often see international dating and it's the parents that are sometimes against it, not the folks in 20s 30s or 40s or even younger 50s). Korea in 2020s has very little amount of "raicial purity" outside of very old people and some extremist groups/online trolls.

[u/DerpAnarchist → u/Queendrakumar]

That's not something unique to South Korea. Sweden used to sterilize Sámi people (the indigenous population of Northern Sweden) in order to prevent them from "polluting" the Swedish gene pool, similar stories exist for the US with Native American boarding schools and the UK Irish travellers.

What's different is that the the target groups in both Koreas were nationals of a foreign country, in which they constituted the majority ethnicity and thus were seen as a potential fifth column. North Korea IIRC aborted children that came out of mixed marriages with Japanese/Chinese in particular.

[u/Shiningc00]

Obviously that would be some Chinese dynasty. “Three Kingdoms period” is popular, and maybe the “first emperor” Qin dynasty is comparable to Caesar or something.

Locally for Japan, it’s the “three great unifiers”/“warring states” period, where the first unifier Oda Nobunaga is typically more popular with men.

[u/Queendrakumar → u/Shiningc00]

How are Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa generally compared to one another in Japan? What's the popular/most widely accepted perspective on them?

[u/Shiningc00 → u/Queendrakumar]

Well you'd have to be a history nerd to care, they're not viewed all that differently, or people in general care really all that much. But Oda is generally seen as being cruel and brutal, maybe because he was, but it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary at the time. But he's also seen as being innovative and open-minded, especially given he was interested in all things foreign.

Toyotomi might be seen as having a "complex", given he was from a peasant background, and how he was called a "bald rat" by Oda.

Tokugawa is probably seen as being boring, but efficient and stable.

Personally, I do think that Oda was a genuinely fascinating person.

[u/DerpAnarchist → u/Shiningc00]

Is it considered to be important in Japan whether a historical person is "boring" or not?

[u/Shiningc00 → u/DerpAnarchist]

No, it’s just that he genuinely didn’t do anything flashy or exciting, especially compared to his predecessors. But he was very patient, and preferred stability. He was also known to be a bit cowardly.

[u/DerpAnarchist → u/Shiningc00]

Really? Tokugawa seems like a smart and intriguing person, while not being genuinely unlikeable like Hideyoshi. Oda may have been amazing at murdering people, but it's more or less the one thing that he did over and over again untl he succeeded. Ieyasu was a deep, reserved, quiet and intelligent person, i think he'd well fit the idea of an interesting person in Korea.

[u/Shiningc00 → u/DerpAnarchist]

Well he probably was intelligent, it's just that he's thought of using that intelligence to be sly and shrewd. It also seems as if he just waited and waited until he got his turn, which gave me him the stereotype that he's the patient one.

[u/GeologistOwn7725 → u/Shiningc00]

That goes for East Asia only. Asia as a whole has had way more dynasties and empires than just China.

[u/DerpAnarchist]

Go-Joseon is what comes the closest for Korea, every successive Korean state has something to do with it in one way or another. Overarching cross-regional comparisons don't make sense for East Asia, as there was never a cosmopolitan, ancient empire whose territorial extent, linguistic and societal impact was larger than that of certain modern day countries.

Rome is the institutional basis for every European country that wasn't some tribal backwater in the Baltics or the Urals, and likewise every major Western European monarchy (HRE, Christian countries) derived their legitimacy from real or made-up Roman legacy.

Korean pre-15th century chroniclers (particularly after the fall of Silla) always treated the part prehistoric, part Bronze-Age political entity of Go-Joseon as the vantage point of when Korean history started. It may not have been created in the 2300 BCE, but it's position as the first recorded state in Korean history as well as the geographical proximity to later historical recorded states meant that it had the founders effect of inevitable influence for anything that came after.

For most major recorded political events during the Late Bronze Age and early antiquity, the catalyst, as it is presented seems to have been Go-Joseon.

The state of Jin-guk, the first ever historical state on what's now Southern Korea was founded by king Jun, the ruler who Wiman expelled. Out of Jin-guk Mahan, Byeonhan and Jinhan would emerge, and Goguryeo emerged from former Go-Joseon directly after its destruction by the Han-dynasty, Baekje was likewise a product of Goguryeo and the more foreign Buyeo immigrants. So was Mahan was founded by Go-Joseon migrants. To the east Silla was founded by Go-Joseon refugees after its destruction, and ultimatively all the three major states that emerged (Goguryeo, Silla, Baekje) were products of the northern polity of Go-Joseon one way or the other.

Regardless of the verifiability of these events, historians found it important enough to acknowledge or create the link from everything they knew in their time to Go-Joseon.

Further it becomes a bit of a tangient: 

Do these historical narratives match up with modern day findings? Perhaps those 3rd-12th century historians knew a few things we don't, as they took it so much for granted and didn't bother writing it up, as it was so obvious to them.

The pattern of bronze artifacts found along the Liao and Hun river matches the geographic descriptions made about Go-Joseon in Chinese chronicles. The name Joseon 朝鮮 is first ever mentioned during the Spring and Autumn period 7th century BCE, with not much about it besides that it's located "Northeast of the (Bohai) Sea".

Likewise the name starts occuring more often, when the state of Yan (燕) starts fighting with Go-Joseon around the 4th century. The conquest of the area west of the lower Liao likewise coincides with the disappearance of the Lute-shaped bronze dagger culture (비파형동금) that is conventionally associated with speakers of some Proto-Koreanic language.

Perhaps king Juns expulsion into the south was just a metaphor. Dug out Korean-style Bronze daggers start emerging en masse at the same time this "Jin-guk" is mentioned in Sima Qians Shiji (Records of the Grand historian), which seems to at least have been so organized as to field a ambassador to the Han dynasty.

Mahan (馬韓, horse-Han) introduces itself to the region in the 3rd century BCE, likewise founded by migrants called Go-yemaek (古濊貊族), bringing with it animal husbandry and tools associated with it, while Jinhan does so a bit later on behalf of the Mahan king, bringing with them horses and millet agriculture as rice findings recede from Southeastern Korea for the next two hundred years (Whitman 2011). Baekje was originally a member state of Mahan, so was Silla for Jinhan. As they both were founded in the 1st century BCE, while Goguryeo was in the 2nd century BCE, they start consolidating their surrounding states during the formative period of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, culminating in the three states emerging as the eminent regional powers. Silla would call it the "Samhan Iltong" (Unification of the Three Han), whereas Goryeo would eventually succeed Silla and continue that albeit from a historical viewpoint closer that of Goguryeos.

[u/found_goose]

The Chola Empire for Tamils. They represent the apex of Tamil influence around the Indian Ocean as well as the solidification of a distinct literary and architectural tradition. The Pandyas are the other major source of historical influence over the ages, especially in and around their imperial capital of Madurai. After the collapse of the Pandyas, it wouldn't be until after Indian independence that a unified, Tamil-run political entity (Tamil Nadu) existed again over the Tamil homeland in India.

[u/incognito_doggo]

Whole asia?

Idk, probably different for each region. I suppose for east asian and many chinese descent maybe the three kingdoms period.

In our country I guess it's Majapahit empire?

[u/MichaelWes3000]

For Korea it would definetly have to be the Goguryeo Dynasty (especially under the rule of Gwanggaeto the Great).

[u/SHIELD_Agent_47 → u/MichaelWes3000]

For me as a Taiwanese, this is very funny because some centuries ago, Dutch traders introduced European cabbage under the Dutch term "kool" (a counterpart to "coleslaw" in English). Someone decided to convert this into Chinese spelling using the existing spelling for the dynasty Goguryeo / Gāogōulí (高句麗). So now we say we eat gāolìcài (高麗菜), the "Korea vegetable", even though it has nothing to do with Korea! 😆

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[u/SteadfastEnd]

Probably some dynasty, like the Han

[u/Sillygoose_Milfbane]

I don't know much about Indian history, but I've noticed Indian culture had a massive influence on Asia beyond South Asia, especially Southeast Asia, through the spread of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Indian script. I wonder if there were any singular empires or kingdoms who played a big role in that.

[u/Kristina_Yukino]

For Chinese men it would be the Ming dynasty. It tends to be hyper romanticised by nationalists

[u/DerpAnarchist → u/Kristina_Yukino]

Is it true that the Song-dynasty is considered "weak"? If so then why? With 319 years it lasted longer than the Tang, Ming and Qing dynasties, most of it spent in war unlike the others.

[u/NHH74 → u/Kristina_Yukino]

Why Ming, and why men ? I've never given much thought into this question, but given the sentiment behind golden age of Han or Tang, i would have thought that it was either of these 2 dynasties. Is there something special about the Ming?

[u/Kristina_Yukino → u/NHH74]

Ming is uniquely situated between the two non-han dynasties of Yuan and Qing so it sort of has the reputation of being a « beacon of Chinese civilisation » amid « barbaric rule ». Many uprisings during the Qing dynasty aimed (or claimed to aim) at restoring Ming rule, which eventually influenced the modern Chinese nationalists (KMT) and their anti-Qing nationalism. Most Han nationalists base their perception of Han-Chineseness on Ming, and things like Zheng He expeditions and Imjin war also contributed to the perception of Ming being a golden era (for the entirety of China, but more specifically for Han Chinese).

Han and Tang are relatively more cosmopolitan in comparison, especially Tang which contained a significant portion of Turkic elements throughout its history and promoted ethnic integration so they don’t quite fit the agenda of modern Han nationalists.

[u/Bloody_Butt_Cock]

“A palm tree appeared to me in the middle of al-Ruṣāfa, Far removed in the land of the West from the country of palms. I said: “You are my likeness in exile and in distance, In the long separation from my sons and from my kin. You grew in a land where you are a stranger, And so, in remoteness and far-off dwelling, you are like me. The clouds of rain have watered you from their showers, Pouring down, while the two stars of the sky nourish you with their rain.”

• A statue middle of Spain 🇪🇸 for, Abdulrahman the opener

[u/Affectionate-Ad-7512]

As far as China is concerned, China was kind of a peer to Rome in of itself, but managed to reconsolidate itself under varying dynasties, so it’d kinda be like if Rome waa still kicking. But as far as which specific dynasties get staying power in terms of thought, would definitely have to be the Han or the Ming, since the Han were the first golden age and the namesake of the Han Chinese ethnic group and the Ming were the last Han-led Chinese dynasty. I guess Qing are also thought of, but it’s inevitably tied to the decline of China in conjunction with the Apex of the West, which gives it a negative legacy.

[u/Momshie_mo]

China.

The Chinese state that we know of today isn't a continuation of the previous imperial dynasties. It is a state built on the territories of the Qings.

What is interesting in Europe though is that the Greeks up until the 1800s, saw themselves as Romans. 

[u/avsintheil]

I don't know if people often think of it, but the Asian state that gets compared to the Roman empire the most is the Han dynasty. The two were regional powers that existed contemporaneously on opposite ends of the Eurasian continent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_studies_of_the_Roman_and_Han_empires

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