r/buffy • u/DeathRaeGun • Jun 07 '25
Content Warning Season four was good and Riley was a cool character
66
u/Main_Confusion_8030 Jun 07 '25
i agree, season four was good!
and that is all i agree on.
21
u/Jwyldeboomboom Jun 08 '25
Riley was a king in season 4, and season 5 ruined him
9
u/Temporary-Ad2254 Jun 08 '25
I agree 100%. I loved Season 4 and I also thought that Riley( though he did still have SOME faults, flaws and failings) was great in Season 4( and easily the best boyfriend that Buffy ever had on the show).
I always say that Season 5 ruined him, too. I'm still very pissed off over how they wrote him in Season 5 and over how they wrote him off of the show. Just like I often say that they did Kendra dirty, I often say that the writers did Riley Finn dirty.
4
u/Jwyldeboomboom Jun 08 '25
Total character assassination for sure.
0
u/Pookienini Jun 09 '25
Riley unraveled after getting all the "special" things about him being pumped out of his system, it revealed his layers deep down that were insecure. it was perfectly written.
2
24
u/Big-Restaurant-2766 That Other One Jun 07 '25
I like The Trio (all thirds of it...)
Also, I agree, season 4 has so many good episodes! My favorite episode "Restless" is from that season. And it's my mom's favorite season becuase it is the most cozy and fun.
2
-4
u/DeathRaeGun Jun 07 '25
When you say "liked" them, do you mean you liked them as villains, or that you actually liked them, because they were incels. I do agree that incels make good villains if that's what you're implying. Especially in the 90's where incel behaviour was tolerated.
21
u/Big-Restaurant-2766 That Other One Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 08 '25
I also see them as just fictional characters. No, I don't like what they do to the characters, of course, but it also didn't really happen to anyone (Amber Benson, the Actress, is just fine).
To me, liking something in fiction doesn't mean you're saying you condone it. When I say I like them I'm not saying I like what they did to Katrina or Tara, or whoever else. People like Angleus. If Angelus were real and you were Giles and he killed your Jenny, you wouldn't like it. But since all the characters are not real, enjoying Angelus is fine.
Warren is my favorite Buffy villain. Along with The First, Angelus, Glory, so on.
Despite there being people in real life, who are similar or could remind me of an event or character from the show, I'm able to dissociate the two and they don't feel the same to me. That's me though, I understand if someone had something happen in real life and then seeing anything similar, even if fictional, still bothers them, that is perfectly okay.
I hope this makes sense.
TLDR; Like as real people? No. As characters? Yes.
4
u/OreosAreVegan831 Jun 08 '25
I feel like people who drag on Xander and Spike have a lot of trouble separating reality from fantasy. They're just characters in a TV show. Sometimes the characters' behavior IS problematic, but it doesn't stop me liking their characters anyway. It was awful when Xander left Anya at the altar, or when Spike tried to rape Buffy. It doesn't mean that they have no redeeming qualities.
-2
u/DiligentAd6969 Jun 08 '25
I think you're wrong about that. Xander and Spike have been criticized in similar ways long before anything about their personal business became widely known. If you're dismissing those criticism for this reason, then you may be making the mistake you're accusing others of making. I have always seen people make direct references to their actions as characters. When it comes to the actors, it's always separate. In fact, I see way less discussion of the actors, because most people aren't interested.
-2
u/DeathRaeGun Jun 07 '25
Yeah, that makes sense. there's nothing wrong with liking villains (Darth Vader and the Joker are fan favourites) as long as you're aware that they’re villains.
Joss Whedon might be offended because he really didn't want to write likeable villains (he actually abused James Masters because he really hated that people liked Spike), but fuck him fans are allowed to like villains.
3
Jun 08 '25
People can like a character for whatever reason they want. They don't need judgement or validation from you or anyone else :)
-2
u/BelligerentGnu Jun 08 '25
I wouldn't mind the Trio, but for a few things.
One, "Real Life is the villain" is a dogshit idea for a season. The whole point of Buffy is demons as *metaphor*.
Two, they simply do not have Big Bad potential. There's no climactic confrontation there. Which leads directly into:
Tara only died because the writer's realized they had no season finale, and so they asspulled an evil/dead lesbian cliche solely to cover for their lack of planning.
3
u/Pookienini Jun 09 '25
this is why you are not a writer.
1
u/BelligerentGnu Jun 09 '25
No, that is literally how it happened. They've covered it in interviews.
Unless you're referring to point one, in which case I'd remind you the show is Buffy, not Six Feet Under.
86
Jun 07 '25
Season 4 is one of my favorites and I have a lot of fondness for S4 Riley. 🤷🏻♀️
63
u/S-WordoftheMorning Jun 07 '25
Season 4 had the weakest villain, but some of the strongest individual stand alone episodes.
18
11
Jun 07 '25
My understanding is Maggie was going to be the original S4 villain, but it didn’t end up happening? I would have loved to have seen that!
3
u/Alanwake28 Jun 08 '25
THIS!!! Nothing comes even close to episodes such as "Hush" or "Restless"....
I often hear people saying the Sopranos or Game of Thrones are the best shows with the best episodes EVER aired on TV but these people clearly haven't seen Buffy!
-8
u/Knight_Machiavelli Jun 07 '25
S7 has the weakest villain. Followed by S6, then S2.
19
u/No-Iron5889 I like the quiet Jun 07 '25
I disagree with all of this but season 2 shouldnt be involved in this discussion whatsoever
8
u/Hungry_Knowledge_893 Jun 08 '25
Yeah S2 has the best villain, Angelus is scarier than Glory and the Mayor and those two are amazing villains
-5
u/Knight_Machiavelli Jun 08 '25
Angelus is just an annoying whiny bitch, and he's not even the main villain, he's just being used by Druscilla.
3
u/Hungry_Knowledge_893 Jun 08 '25
Ah yes, he definitely had no agency! When he tortured Giles for hours, he did it for Drusilla!
And his killing of Jenny and laying her like that on Giles' bed? Total whiny bitch behavior
Angelus wasn't just a good villain, he was the whole reason people actually loved Angel thereafter. Boreanaz was quite bad on the first few episodes and Angel was super uninteresting
After Angelus he really took ownership of the character and Angel finally became a fun and interesting character to watch
0
31
u/UnicornScientist803 Jun 07 '25
Full agree. Season 4 had some really bright spots - introduction to Tara, Anya becoming main cast, Hush, etc.
And Season 4 Riley was sweet and kinda charming. Season 5 Riley is a totally different matter.
5
3
15
u/AthomicBot Jun 07 '25
Season 4 is a lot of fun, I just wish the Season arc hadn't been derailed with whatever went on with Professor Walsh's actress.
The stand alone's from that Season are peak Buffy.
19
u/Illustrious_Leek_931 Jun 07 '25
I liked season 4. I just wish Adam was more exciting though the way they defeated him was interesting and yeah Riley was cool in season 4
21
Jun 08 '25
There's NO BAD SEASON OF THIS SHOW and I'm sick of this foolishness pretending there is
5
2
2
15
u/MiddayScroller Jun 07 '25
I actually love Riley. Maybe not as a long term partner for Buffy, but I’m a big fan.
22
5
u/ExcelCat Jun 08 '25
S4 slaps way harder than people give it credit for... Riley was... a person.
Yea.
2
u/mbene913 Jun 08 '25
It had some really good MOTW episodes but the big bad stuff was meh. People seem to forget it's the season that gave us Hush and the whole Faith arc that spills into Angel
15
u/Dybuk89 Jun 07 '25
Hahaha love this. I actually preferred season 4 to season 7. Come for me.
8
Jun 07 '25
SAME. Season 7 was by far my least, and Season 4 is a comfort rewatch for me. Not super heavy and heartbreaking like others, especially leading into Season 5.
3
u/Dybuk89 Jun 07 '25
Totally agree. 5 & 6 are heavy but I love them and I don't know for me 7 felt like a different show. It was weird.
3
u/sarynima Jun 08 '25
S4 is way better than S7. It's rewatchable and fun. And so many great standalone episodes. The big Bad wasn't good, but S7 big Bad was also bad imo.
4
u/bara_no_seidou Jun 08 '25
I love season 4. And I think season 3 was poorly written in the first half. Pacing was terrible. The back and forth between Angel and Buffy was eh. Buffy seemed like a side character.
3
u/Moraulf232 Jun 08 '25
Season 4 was good and Riley was a good character. I just don’t like either as much as I like S3 Buffy.
If you want to trigger the Buffy fandom, you say:
Ben is Glory!
4
u/OutPlea Jun 09 '25
spike was a fantastic villain for s2, but making him a series regular in s4 was fan service
9
u/Unlucky-Duck Jun 08 '25
I feel really sorry for Marc Blucas (Riley) that he saw that fandom hated his character so he stayed away from all of this.
7
Jun 08 '25
I really don’t get why anyone hated his character. I would date the man. Lol
3
u/Unlucky-Duck Jun 08 '25
Fanbases can be insane. Sarah Michelle Gellar revealed that she received death threats because irl she has chosen Angel over Spike 😵💫
0
u/SvenVersluis Jun 08 '25
I agree that Riley is hot and I definitely wouldn’t say no to a date with him. However I still don’t really like his character, because he never truely leaves the Initiative. Even after he physically leaves the organisation, he can't really seem to let go of their scientific and military approach towards demons and the supernatural, and can't really seem to accept the Scoobies' more mystical approach.
7
7
3
u/Impossible_Painter62 Jun 08 '25
Buffy and Angel had no reason to be so over the top and dramatic about eachother. They had nothing in common and there was nothing deeper going on.
And I am tired of SMG swooning over Bangel just bc she and David probably had the hots for eachother or sth.
9
u/DeadMetalRazr Jun 07 '25
Anya’s speech in "The Body" was forced, over the top, and out of character.
4
u/Knight_Machiavelli Jun 08 '25
Completely agree with this. I've seen a lot of people try to defend it and it's never been convincing to me.
-1
4
6
2
2
u/boredgaymz If the apocalypse comes, beep me! 📟 Jun 08 '25
first off, 🤣.
secondly, there truly are several great eps in S4.
2
u/Liability538 Jun 08 '25
Season four was good, the college setting was fun. That's all you said, right? Surely nothing here is making light of the most actively uninteresting Buffy love interest (Yes I'm including Scott and Owen)
2
u/Sparkling_Strawberry Jun 09 '25
I was so devastated when Riley left the show - Buffy and Riley were so good together. The T&Cs of Angel’s curse don’t annoy me at all- who needs happiness. In Angel - Cordelia hooking up Conner was a great and didn’t make my question what the writers were thinking!!!!
5
u/AlishaMichelle90 Jun 07 '25
Riley had so much potential but the writers had to make him whiney and constantly jealous of Buffy's abilities.
2
u/Knight_Machiavelli Jun 08 '25
He wasn't jealous of Buffy's abilities until they wrote him off the show. He had zero insecurities about it through all of S4.
3
u/Soft_Interaction_437 “five by five” Jun 07 '25
That scene in Seeing Red was in character for Spike, but also should not have happened.
4
u/StaticCloud What's with the Dadaism, Red? Jun 07 '25
Season 7 has a few good points but it's kind of an incohesive mess, and the worst season of the series
3
u/bob-omb_panic Jun 08 '25
Season 4 was great! Riley was boring, but not terrible. My partner just watched (first time watcher) and Riley was his favorite of Buffy's love interests.
5
u/visitorzeta Jun 07 '25
Xander was justified in walking out on Anya on their wedding day!!!!
9
u/PhantomLuna7 Jun 08 '25
He was right to not marry her with the doubts he had.
He was wrong to abandon her literally in the middle of the ceremony, walking out and leaving her to face his friends and family.
How he chose to cancel the wedding is the problem, not that he did it at all.
6
u/DeathRaeGun Jun 07 '25
I'd agree but mainly because he realised he'd be a dick of a husband and shouldn't put her through that.
2
2
u/generalkriegswaifu They're not recycling Jun 08 '25
I love Riley! S4 is pretty good, probably my favourite post high school season.
2
u/LamiaWillow Jun 07 '25
Buffy should have finished the first time she died
3
1
1
1
Jun 08 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/buffy-ModTeam Jun 08 '25
Hi there - Your content has been removed because it does not meet our Minimum Karma requirements. Please review our full rules for minimum requirements. Thank you.
1
1
u/LadyLongLimbs "Is everyone here very stoned?" Jun 08 '25
While I don't like Riley, Season 4 was one of my favorite seasons if not my favorite.
1
u/Infamous-Lab-8136 Jun 08 '25
All the seasons were good, season 4 is just inferior to most of the others
I'd still watch season 4 over most of the seasons of Smallville for instance, and I liked it a lot too at the time
As for Riley he was good until he was superfluous and then they just did whatever to get him off the show it seemed
1
1
1
u/B1chpudding Jun 08 '25
I think Riley was a good stable dude after angel and Parker 🤮 at least at first. I just feel weird about how Riley turned out in the end.
Season 4 overall was fine, I mean it had hush. Super Buffy was so cool, why didn’t they use that again. But Adam was the worst, least interesting big bad.
1
1
u/Dangerous-Bit-9908 Jun 08 '25
unpopular opinion: Riley always wore this facial expression when he was about to punch someone or hit something and it was so cuteeeeeeeee loved Rileyyy
1
1
u/speashasha Jun 08 '25
I rewatched season 4 the last couple of days, and while it is not my favorite season, I agree. it's actually not bad and Riley is what Buffy needed at the time. I would even go so far that Adam is not a bad villain, he was just not used efficiently. He needed someone to play off. As a villain, he was too isolated. He needed someone to have some kind of relationship with.
1
u/gaut80 Jun 08 '25
Parker was Buffy's best love interest.
Every man should be like Xander.
Willow and Kennedy were the OTP of the show.
More seriously: I really don't get the hate on Dawn's character.
1
u/Zordonion Jun 08 '25
Buffy should've faced some serious repurcussions for doing nothing while Angelus rampaged through Sunnydale when she had the power to kill him in S2
1
u/Silver-Being2399 Jun 08 '25
Season 4 Riley was cute and sweet and SMILED genuinely. Season 5 Riley was broody, insecure and just annoying.
1
u/Unhappy-Tough-9214 Jun 08 '25
Of course it’s good! It just wasn’t amazing like most of the other seasons
1
1
1
1
Jun 08 '25
Giles was right to leave, it gave Buffy the room to test her own strength as a grown-up, and he was spinning his wheels.
2
u/SvenVersluis Jun 08 '25
I actually quite like the Initiative storyline, because I love it how the Scoobies with their more mystical, magical approach to the supernatural make the Initiative with their military and scientific approach look like the incompetent and arrogant amateurs they are.
However I feel like a big problem with Riley that people don't really talk about is that outside his relationship problems with Buffy, he also just doesn't fit the Scoobies in general. In the sense that even after he leaves the Initiative, he can't really seem to let go of their scientific and military approach towards demons and the supernatural, and can't really seem to accept the Scoobies' more mystical approach.
1
2
u/Fearless_Echo6252 Jun 08 '25
Riley could’ve been interesting with better writing. They messed that up big time. When he came back in season 6 it was nice to see where he ended up. I enjoyed that.
But I love season 4!! The overall plot is a little strange BUT it has some of the best moments and episodes and great character development for the characters!!
1
u/Puttanesca621 Jun 08 '25
The contrast between Riley and Adam is interesting.
Riley had blandness as a character trait built in. He was the ordinary boy love interest for Buffy. Even his secret that caused some damage was eventually overcome in mostly ordinary human ways. It was always going to be a challenge to make him interesting so when the execution of his on screen presence left a little to be desired it was not a great surprise.
Adam was a Frankenstein’s monster with a cyber demon twist - a character concept with great potential for interest that failed to manifest.
1
1
1
u/ExcelCat Jun 08 '25
The Faith/Angelus arc was awesome, The Beast was a kick ass mini-villian, the fight in Apocalypse Nowish was one of the best in either series, the Fred-focused episode near the end was great, Spin the Bottle was awesome and Dark Wesley achieves his final form.
This season rocks.
1
u/twirling_daemon Jun 08 '25
I don’t disagree. I think the initiative & Adam not being as compelling & powerful as other big bads meant we got a lot more strong single episodes
I think Riley was a great & appropriate boyfriend for college
I think the somewhat disjointed mess & jarring bits fit well with that period of life
1
1
u/Ambitious_Trifle_645 Jun 09 '25
Season 4 had many of the best episodes. Anyone that says 4 was bad is just wrong
1
1
u/TheSnarkling Jun 08 '25
Season 4 was good...some of the best standalone eps in the series. Yeah, main villain arc was weak, but that was the case in S6 (which had some of the worst eps of the series) and season 7 as well, and they hardly ever get called out like S4.
We all like to complain about Beer Bad, but it's not nearly as bad as Wrecked or Gone.
And Riley grew on me, now that I'm an adult. Still think he and Buffy were incompatible and boring to watch, but at least he got to punch Parker.
1
u/plug313 Jun 08 '25
I love Riley. people hate him because he had issues, he was depressed and did shitty self destructive things. who hasn't? he is still a good guy.
1
1
0
0
1
u/V48runner Jun 08 '25
I totally agree. Riley started out as an interesting "normal" boyfriend, but once that was all sorted out, you could tell the writers were hungry for some juicy drama. Enter the vampire hooker den.
1
Jun 08 '25
The way Riley and Buffy discovered each other’s secrets was so sexy 🥲 I loved the way things built up towards that scene, and I also loved that it was a silent scene. It was hilarious when Riley crushed the glass instead of the box at first. And when Buffy screamed at the end…so hot when he saw her like that for the first time..the way she was crouched on all fours like a primal warrior goddess. Season four was one of my favorites because of their relationship and just the fun layers of suspense and secrets. Until of course Buffy and Riley randomly started communicating horribly and Riley doubted Buffy’s love and Buffy took Riley for granted 🙄I’m still annoyed they didn’t end up together, although I’m also a huge fan of Spuffy. Spuffy semi made up for it. I’m always a sucker for the evil boyfriend/righteous girlfriend couples. Angel never did it for me the same way. Cole Turner and Phoebe in Charmed were one of my favorite dynamics too. But anyway… I loved that Riley was so pure and good for Buffy…. The nostalgia of watching season 4 for the first time….sigh…
1
u/AlSahim2012 Jun 08 '25
Captain Peroxide is overrated and if they really cared about Buffy, Xander or Giles should've stayed him
-4
u/alrtight ...I'm naming all the stars... Jun 07 '25
i agree. riley is a good character in that he is totally believable as this misogynist that believes himself to be the nice guy.
also, s4 is great. people shit on it cause they hate the initiative but some of the best episodes of the show are in s4.
-1
0
u/DiligentAd6969 Jun 08 '25
Nice guys can be misogynists. Women can be misogynists. I'd argue that Maggie had some misogynistic tendencies.
(psst. I think the Star Wars guys are here today.)
0
0
u/Kat-Attack-52 Jun 08 '25
Season 4 is my favorite season and I loved Riley! He did so much good in season 4 and early season 5.
-1
-1
-1
u/DeadGirlLydia Jun 08 '25
I'll do you one better: The season five finale is the true end of the show, the two seasons after are bad fanfiction meant to fulfill a new and unexpected contract.
0
u/WAAAGHachu Jun 08 '25
Oooh, oooh, I did this already and got over a hundred downvotes across two comments, let's see if it still works:
Cordelia is, at the very least, autistic-coded!
1
u/BelligerentGnu Jun 08 '25
That is a fascinating take. I don't think I can agree with it, but it's interesting.
1
1
u/WAAAGHachu Jun 10 '25
I will respond to you again, after several days have passed: There was not a great downvoting experience.
I appreciated your patience with me as I responded multiple times to you in varying degrees of belligerence. What, exactly, is a Gnu, by the way?
2
u/BelligerentGnu Jun 10 '25
It's a type of African antelope. It both featured as a character in the animal crackers comic, and was a mascot for a kind of Linux distro. It's better known as a wildebeest.
1
u/WAAAGHachu Jun 10 '25
OH! I heard cracking and was reminded of the animal known for battle-worthiness by the cracking and popping of its knees. Not the Gnu, that is, but the Eland, I believe. Are belligerent Gnu quite a problem?
2
u/BelligerentGnu Jun 10 '25
I mean, I try not to be. :P I picked the name because I like the sound of Belligerent, and my Dad has a little stuffed Gnu from a Linux conference sitting on the shelf of his office. No particular story.
1
-1
u/WAAAGHachu Jun 08 '25
You're supposed to be TRIGGERED!!! :)
Autism-coded isn't the same thing as actually being autistic, and considering autism in women is not entirely the focus of anyone's interest, even though it is likely as common as male autism I am happy with just an acknowledgement that Cordelia might be coded a bit that way.
•
u/AutoModerator Jun 07 '25
Hi there,
Your post on r/buffy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community to engage in a good faith discussion related to your post and how it fits into the context of the show.
Remember Rule #9: Scooby Reddiquette and report any rule violations. If the discussion departs from the intended topic and how it fits into the context of the show, please be prepared to continue the conversation where discussion of the topic is more appropriate.
Thank you, r/buffy Mod Team
P.S. If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "Content Warning" flair.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.