r/buffy • u/aceofspades85262 • Jul 19 '25
Content Warning Spike ruined the show for me.
This is going to be a very controversial opinion, considering Spike is the fandom darling by far, but his continued presence actively took him from a character I had enjoyed seeing pop up in the first 4 seasons to a character I wanted off my screen.
Going into the series, I knew 3 things, The lesbian dies, there was a musical episode, and that Spike was an incredibly popular character and Spuffy was a romance for the ages. I was very much anticipating when he would first show up, knowing he was so beloved and popular, and when he did, I wasn't disappointed.
In the 2nd and 3rd season of Btvs Spike is incredibly entertaining for how little screen time he has in total, he's funny, charming, and has a really interesting relationship with Drusilla, who definitely stands out amongst the waves of more generic vampires like early Spike with her speech and powers, and his comeback in season 3 made for one of the funniest episodes in the series and one of the funniest scenes, with Joyce comforting Spike.
Season 4 is where I feel Spike hits his peak, as a villain trying his best to maintain his villain status when his abilities to directly harm our heroes are taken away. For as strange and boring of a Villain Adam was, his plan, and partnership with Spike, was pretty interesting, and I love how Spike was able to pick on the insecurities of each Scooby, his crucial flaw being that he didn't think they would reconcile their differences, which I personally thought of as a really insightful character moment, a vampire so far apart from his old human self he can't imagine the scoobies reconciling when vampires would just leave or kill who they fell out with.
Season 5 is great, but in hindsight I feel like Season 7 taints how I view this season, and especially season 6, in terms of Spike. This is when we first get Spuffy, in a very one sided very toxic form. This is a great character moment for Spike and Buffy, it shows how his lack of a soul only leads him to a one sided obsession that can easily be mistaken for love, but doesn't come close to the true emotion.
This is built upon in season 6, where we go even further into their toxic relationship as Buffy starts sleeping with him as a way to cope with her depression, however, it is with seeing red that my issue with Spike truly begins to show.
I know a lot don't like this episode for what Spike does, claiming its out of character, I completely disagree, my issue lies entirely with what happens after, how Spike's attempted rape on Buffy focuses on his feelings, and glosses over hers. For Buffy, it might as well not have happened, her attempted rape serves only to develop Spike futher, into season 7.
I hate season 7 Spike, I strongly dislike the second half of this season in general, partially because of how everyone is pushed aside largely for him. The first 7 episodes are great, and remind me heavily of the first 3 seasons in the best way possible, but as any fan will tell you, this season goes off the rails rather quickly with the introduction of a bunch of characters that feel like 3 or 4 characters split into around 15 for Buffy to lecture to.
Soulled Spike is really interesting to me, for a while I disliked this development and thought it changed too much of what we knew about souls, but after further thought I've come to realize it fits in rather well, it's just that Angel and Spike have hundreds of years of difference in their time with a soul, and Spike is sure to change even more as he continues to live.
But enough about the lore of souls, Spike bends the entirety of this season around his existence, and there are two examples that particularly made me despise his character.
Robin Wood was such an interesting character idea, the first black character on Btvs to not be killed off soon after introduction, son of a slayer, so much room for his character to grow, to expand upon the theme of what it means to be a slayer, to show Buffy she could have some semblance of a normal life with a family and child, or to show her that for a slayer, the mission comes before children. But that's never done, instead, he serves as an obstacle for Spike to overcome, a roadblock in his way to becoming more like the "badass" Spike from the earlier seasons. To the point he flaunts his dead mother's coat, a trophy from a kill, despite all it clearly means. Robin was a character that had so much promise, only to be another stepping stone for Spike, and nothing more. And Buffy supports him for this, which leads me to my second point
This completely invalidates Buffy's arc in season 6. Buffy learning to open up to the people who truly care about her, promising to stop neglecting dawn, reconnecting with her friends, cutting out the negative coping mechanisms, its just, gone. Dawn is once again a footnote in Buffy's mind, when she makes a mistake with caleb, instead of visiting her now disabled friend in the hospital and talking things over with her most trusted people, she alone decides what they should do, and this is called out in conversations with dead people. She does view herself as superior and thinks her decisions matter more, and in a way, shes right, but in many other ways, she's also wrong, and its been her friends that have always been her strength, in season 4 they were literally used as parts of her in the fight against Adam.
But, Xander, Willow and Giles are no longer her most trusted people, they've all been replaced, by Spike. This season has permanently ruined the reputation of the scoobies, with many claiming their bad friends for not wanting to go to the place their friends just died and Xander got his eye gouged out. They didn't kick her out, they said they wouldn't follow her anymore, and she left. And of course, when Spike returns, he yells at them, and he becomes the only person who believes in Buffy.
Her isolation from her friends was the thing that had her running to Spike in season 6, and now in season 7, its the same thing, with entire arcs being ignored, in favor of the Spuffy ship.
Just like he said in season 6, hes the only one she can really rely on, but unlike then, its not a statement about their toxic relationship and her keeping feelings hidden from her loved ones, its a sad and true statement, because now Spike fills the role all the others used to occupy, he has become the thing the show revolves around.
Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading
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u/spred_browneye Jul 19 '25
I don’t agree with everything you say here but you’re analysis of season 7 is spot on. I love season 6 but you’re right when you say that season 7 basically undermines her season 6 arc, especially when it comes to Dawn. I her becoming estranged from her friends is a common theme in season 4 and 6, So I’m less bothered by that reappearing in season 7. I think one of the hallmarks of adulthood is that we sometimes need to learn the same lessons over and over again.
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u/aceofspades85262 Jul 19 '25
I agree that having the same lessons being learned again is important and very realistic, it just doesn't feel like that was what they were going for, it felt like they just wanted Spike and Buffy alone and this caused massive consequences for the fanbase at large
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u/spred_browneye Jul 19 '25
Maybe I’m in the minority but I blame the potentials more than Spike for taking up valuable screen time. I could have completely done without them
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u/Lorilee2023 Jul 20 '25
Totally agree I can’t stand they wasted time on potentials for the final season
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u/Vandersveldt Jul 19 '25
For her, she was done. She got to rest. Everyone she knew and loved ripped her out of heaven. Spike was one of the only ones who might understand trauma of that level. She went through death and betrayal and not even being able to trust she can rest after death.
Yeah, that'll undo some character progression. If that happened to me, I'd absolutely stop trying. What's the point?
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u/erulisseh Jul 19 '25
I respect your bravery with this post
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u/jospangel Jul 19 '25
This is absolutely hilarious.. All these compliments on the bravery, in a post where no one gets upset.
What exactly did you expect people to do? Call you at home? Threaten the kids and the dog?
Y'all build Spuffy into some force of the damned, and then....crickets....
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u/snarkyjohnny Jul 20 '25
I think it helps that you layed out a long explanation and not just “he sucked” of something flippant.
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u/ichbinsflow Jul 20 '25
Yep, especially since there have been people who hated Spike ever since he made his first appearance in School Hard a whopping 28 years ago. It's not as if the internet was invented yesterday. People have bragged about their hatred for Spike online for almost three decades. I mean, they can go ahead for all I care. But ... brave? How? Why? How?
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u/aceofspades85262 Jul 19 '25
Posting in the heart of the Spuffy body, I took a gamble
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u/Dazzling_Coffee2062 Jul 20 '25
Im a Spuffy fan but I don’t think this sub is as spuffy as you think. I’ve seen many people be downvoted and shot down when speaking good about Spike and especially Spuffy. (Including me) I’ve seen just as many Bangle fans and even some Riley Buffy shippers. Overall, I think out of all the shows subs I’m on, this one is the most likely where people will say “the MC did the right thing leaving all of them and moving on”
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u/aceofspades85262 Jul 20 '25
I disagree, to an extent, of course there are fans all over, but the majority of time if theres a vampire to be posted about, its spike, hes the fandom darling, even divorced from his ship with buffy
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u/shingaladaz Jul 19 '25
It’s a shame one has to be brave to share truth.
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u/buffysmanycoats Jul 19 '25
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is no “truth” involved here. It’s OP’s opinion. Mine is entirely different and feels no less “true” to me.
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u/Hadoken101 Jul 19 '25
I don't agree on it ruining the show, per se (Buffy still my favourite of all time) but I agree a lot of the problems with season 7 especially is how much of the plot is dedicated to Spike to the detriment of the rest of the cast.
Xander and Giles could be completely gone from the second half of the season, and nothing would change. Willow is relegated to a lame duck romance plot that feels more like the writers trying to apologize for killing Tara than a real relationship. Even Anya could have been killed off at the end of Selfless as her arc never really progresses past that point.
So yeah, while I don't think Spike ruined the show, I think a lot of the later problems stem from the writers seemingly getting bored of the Scoobies and hyperfocusing on him.
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u/purplemackem Jul 19 '25
Honestly the character of Robin ends up being such a representation for the show and what they’ve done plot wise in S7. When you find out he’s the son of a slayer you think hmm that’s interesting, maybes we could explore how Buffy feels about the possibility of having children? Maybes explore how Buffy thinks her future may go. Except then the end of First Date just goes ‘lol actually his character is just all about Spike now. Because Spike needed a 17th plot point for the season’. Bearing in mind before this every single one of Robins scenes were with Buffy. That’s what his character and dynamic had been built around and then suddenly to just pivot and he just becomes ANOTHER Spike plot point. And we ignore everything that could be interesting for Buffy’s character
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u/garbage-troll Horny Giles Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
I don’t think Spike’s character is necessarily at fault for the problems of season 7, but the Robin storyline is completely butchered. I think you’re right that it is a prime example of poor writing in season 7.
The “badass” Spike moment OP references is completely stupid. It’s a bad writing choice for Spike, who doesn’t deal with the moral complexities of his existence. It’s a bad writing choice for Buffy (as you pointed out), as it completely ignores her previous dynamic with Robin and glosses over the kinship she should feel with his mother. It’s a terrible writing choice for Robin, who DOES deserve vengeance on Spike. After this episode, his character is completely shoehorned into being a side character with little to do but flirt with Faith. And it’s a terrible plot point for Buffy and Giles’ relationship. I don’t know if I feel like it ever truly recovers.
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u/EponymousHoward Jul 19 '25
Not so much poor writing as poor Whedon jumping in to meddle and pander - the original endings of Beneath You, Sleeper and First Date were much more nuanced and interesting that what we got.
There's a reason the old SMGfans discussion board banned ALL shipper talk.
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u/spred_browneye Jul 19 '25
Ok I haven’t heard about these changed endings. Can you elaborate?
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u/SafiraAshai Jul 19 '25
I only know about the original ending of Beneath You, but I have no idea how the other two are different.
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u/midfallsong Jul 19 '25
Whoa thanks for this. I always knew it was changed but didn’t know we had the original ending!
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u/jospangel Jul 19 '25
Scripts and transcripts for Buffy, just the scripts for Angel - https://web.archive.org/web/20170329181956/http://buffyworld.com/
Enjoy!
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u/ashl9 Jul 19 '25
Please expand on this, I was literally a child so I'm I wasn't on any message boards at the time and I am very curious!
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u/EponymousHoward Jul 19 '25
It's just that discussion on the web got very toxic very quickly once shippers turned up.
Most of my fandom was on the old Usenet system, where users had a lot of control over what got filtered, so shippers would turn up, but not really get a much traction, so discussion focussed on writing, symbolism, metaphor and much less on darling Spikey-wikey or poor misunderstood Angel.
But on early web boards, only moderators had real control. So when I went looking for alternative views, SMGfans was one site I found with a huge notice saying that shipper discussion was banned. 'Cos the mods had had enough.
Alas, it became clear that Whedon was hearing the internet noise machine and interpreting it as the fanbase(1). Have a root around for the original scripts - they'll be out there somewhere (mine are on a random hard drive somewhere). In these three episodes, Buffy was much more sceptical of Spike and a lot less like a lovestruck teen who had totally forgotten about the attempted rape. We never earned the blind faith she had in him by Lies My Parents Told Me, nor the complete eliding of Giles's and Robin's trauma.
What made Spike a great, compelling character was that, souled or un-souled, villain or hero, he was an unrepentant arsehole, but that gets buried shipper wibble. A common complaint was that the show had become Spike The Vampire Poet With A Soul And Cheekbones, rather than Buffy The Vampire Slayer.
Listen to Whedon's commentary on Chosen, especially the "No you don't but thanks for saying it," exchange and it becomes obvious that, by this stage, Gellar and Marsters had a far stronger grip of the characters than Whedon (who had been off doing Firefly).
It's why I despise shipper discussion - it has been a cancer on fan discourse for as long as I can remember. Also why I love what they have done with Apple's Murderbot adaptation - heading it off at the pass in a very on-point way, while celebrating, empathic and intelligent (if, at this point, distinctly unworldly) women.
- Not something Tim Minear did with Angel, because he would jump into the conversation and speak directly to fans - and never took offence, no matter how robust the critique. Whedon would do the occasional drive-by comment.
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u/Erawk Jul 20 '25
Oh man, I remember the 'shipper wars that would take place on The Bronze message boards. Flames, flames everywhere. Caused me to jump over to the Yahoo Buffy 'boards, where more nuanced and calm discussion (and some fun fanfic and even roleplay) was taking place, even though I did miss when the members of the cast and crew would pop onto The Bronze 'boards.
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u/EponymousHoward Jul 21 '25
I may be mistaken, but I think the Yahoo groups were essentially a front end for Usenet (before Google bought the whole lot and fucked it), so that makes sense.
Had forgotten about The Bronze boards, so thanks for that traumatic flashback.
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u/debujandobirds Jul 19 '25
What about the Chosen commentary makes you think that?
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u/EponymousHoward Jul 19 '25
He was complaining about how Gellar and Marsters couldn't make sense of his "When you say you love him, really love him" direction. Yet somehow they still absolutely nailed the scene - a moment of unadorned kindness from her and a moment of unadorned truth from him.
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u/DazedAndTrippy Out For A Walk Bitch Jul 20 '25 edited Jul 20 '25
I think it goes both ways, some people feel that scene felt a bit off and I can't fully disagree. I think James took the "Thanks for saying it" bit like he didn't feel he deserved her yet and/or disbelieving of the confession (fair and I like it) while Whedon saw it as probably a snarky Spike response to getting told what he always wanted in the middle of a great sacrifice. I can see how there's a disconnect there between writer and actor and I dont think either of them are wrong. In a sense, Whedon stayed true to the "unapologetic asshole" by having him be witty till the end, but Marsters wanted to play more with his development as a character and I think they both have a fair point. The confusion is what makes the ending fun to analyze in my opinion so I'm glad they both have slightly different interpretations.
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u/Dentarthurdent73 Jul 19 '25
maybes we could explore how Buffy feels about the possibility of having children?
I'm very happy that Buffy thinking about children is never explored on the show.
Women exist as human beings beyond just their ability to have children, and as a woman who's never wanted or had children, it's very refreshing to see children not explored or even thought about for once in a story about a woman.
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u/OpheliaDalloway Jul 19 '25
This! Plus isn't she just 23 or something like that? And also still has a minor to take care of and was forced to when she barely had started college. Why should she even be thinking about that? What Buffy needs is to live her life just for herself for once!
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u/shoestring-theory Jul 19 '25
She’s barely 22 at that point, and she’s been a full time caretaker for 2 years of a teenager. That’s probably the last thing Buffy was thinking about. Maybe if the character were a bit older and had significantly less going on.
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u/shekissedmedead Jul 19 '25
Having lived it, I disagree. At 22, I had full legal guardianship and physical custody of my 15 year old younger sister. I’d also already been married for three years. Raising a teenager, especially a troubled one who’s acting out, self harming, engaging in risky behaviors… you definitely think about kids of your own. Granted, sometimes that thought process is something along the lines of “I’m never having them,” but… you think about it.
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u/Deboche Jul 19 '25
That could still be a way to explore it. Women usually end up getting heavily pressured to find a partner and get pregnant, made to feel like they're wasting their lives if they don't. It would be nice to see a woman make the same choice you made and be totally happy.
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u/Same-Fennel-1657 Jul 19 '25
Not to mention she already bears the teeny tiny responsibility of saving the whole goddamn world on her shoulders… why does she need to consider adding a child to the mix? I fail to see how that’s interesting.
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u/Strong-Finger-6126 Jul 19 '25
I agree with you but I also think it could've been interesting to see Buffy explore a whole array of possibilities for her future. Keeping a regular job, moving to a new city, etc etc. Meeting Robin could've been a much broader lightbulb moment for Buffy.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Jul 19 '25
I’m actually really glad the show doesn’t make motherhood or pregnancy a plot point for Buffy, it would be so unnecessary and they are already screwing over all the female characters on Angel that way.
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u/waits5 Jul 19 '25
I thought the frost pregnancy episode on Angel was bad and I completely hated the 783rd pregnancy plot line. It also preemptively ruined the main pregnancy of S3 for me.
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u/purplemackem Jul 19 '25
I’m glad as well that they don’t have her being pregnant or make it a huge plot point but it’s still something to explore on whether Buffy thinks she may want that some day
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Jul 19 '25
Why? Until the show ends she’s still the only slayer, having a child would be very irresponsible. She also expects to die (again) soon. And they don’t discuss kids with any of the other characters. It seems entirely unnecessary to go there with Buffy.
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u/purplemackem Jul 19 '25
I’m not saying about her having a child that season or even getting pregnant but just exploring the possibility on whether she’s ever wondered about it. You could even relate it to her soayerness and how that would make her feel about it.
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u/Cherry_Dull Jul 19 '25
But even “exploring” it is a tacit implication of the societal norm that motherhood is or should be the goal of every woman (even if Buffy decided she didn’t want kids).
It’s much more powerful that Buffy didn’t even think about it. It’s rare to see a woman focus on her own life.
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u/PirateJen78 Jul 19 '25
Totally agree. If they would have "explored" Buffy's desire for children, that would have been it for me.
The point was that Buffy is the slayer and fights evil. There are no family plots involved, other than the attempt at marriage for Xander and Anya, and look how that turned out. It's not some sort of family drama. It's action and it's about female power. Focusing on children would have taken too much away from that.
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u/AIGLOS42 Jul 19 '25
I wouldn't have trusted a Whedon-helmed show to handle these topics at all, and that's before we even consider his treatment of Charisma Carpenter.
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u/Erawk Jul 20 '25
It is very briefly discussed in S3 before Angel leaves. Joyce has the conversation with him, and Angel talks about her deserving someone who, among other things, can help her have children ("Children? Can you say jumping the gun? I kill my goldfish"). But that is about it, or at least, all I can recall at this moment.
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u/FiberWhisperer Jul 20 '25
I think the only discussion of Buffy’s potential offspring is between Joyce and Angel in S3 (which, eeeew… Mom and boyfriend orchestrating his flight to “free” her to the possibility of a “normal relationship”. 🤢
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u/kakallas Jul 19 '25
It could’ve come up as a way for her to talk about not wanting kids though. At least it’s a conceptually interesting area in terms of social expectations. Like, she’s already this stereotypical ditz who ends up defying expectations, and more exploration of that and how being a slayer affects your life as a woman and person in society would’ve been more in line with the original concept of the show than exploring spike’s journey, and poorly (IMO) at that. But also shows take on a life of their own, and a lot of show runners go with it.
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u/elimyyyyy Jul 19 '25
I don’t see why Buffy should be thinking about having children in the middle of the apocalypse. That said, I feel like the story with Robin/Spike could have been resolved in a more satisfying way. But after rewatching for the third time I did understand why she would side with Spike—it makes sense that she needs him at that point to help her. But it does all feel like the writers rushed the resolution and didn’t think thru.
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u/PirateJen78 Jul 19 '25
I thought the point was to reinforce that the mission is what mattered, just like Nikki told Robin when he was little. Without Spike, Buffy knew she would struggle in the final battle.
I understand why Wood wanted to kill Spike, but he just followed Xander's same ideology that all vampires are evil, even if they have a soul, and it's annoying.
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u/jospangel Jul 19 '25
I have no sympathy for Wood because he is knowingly working for the enemy. He's a traitor. What he should have done was tell Giles and Buffy that the First was goading hm to kill Spike. And as far as his mother is concerned he should have accused Spike in front of everyone and demanded his coat back. Wood deciding he will do the job that the enemy has told him to do, that is inexcusable.
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u/elimyyyyy Jul 20 '25
That’s an interesting point. I forgot the First put him up to it. I feel like it was such a compelling story set up between Wood and Spike but I think it could have just played out better. I know the writers were under a lot of pressure to resolve things tho.
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u/LiahKnight Jul 20 '25
It wasn't even just trying to kill spike, he tried to trigger him with the music and put him in a room filled with crosses. It was villainous levels of thought.
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u/waits5 Jul 19 '25
Dawn is already used to fast forward Buffy into a motherly role. I know they are sisters, but they directly mention how Buffy is trying to fill Joyce’s shoes.
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u/bellegi Jul 19 '25
i like Spike and i like season 6 (mostly) but yes, i agree with you on a lot of these takes. specifically how season 7 messed so many things up.
i have gone on about how i think it’s the worst season and how it makes me sad that that’s how the show ended. i feel like if season 7 had been written better it could have fixed the messiness of season 6.
but no, it just became the Spike show. and a bad Spike show at that. and again, i LIKE Spike, but the decisions for the characters and the show as a whole were terrible.
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u/6rwoods Jul 19 '25
Agreed. I think OP's only mistake on the post was in thinking that people like Spuffy *with* Seeing Red and the Spikefication of S7, when in reality I think most of us like Spuffy *despite* that.
Seeing Red is a hamfisted moment that the writers decided was 'needed' in order for Spike to make the decision to get a soul, but IMO they could have easily done that without that scene and it was a poor choice.
Meanwhile, S7 focusing on Spike's new identity and fixing his relationship with Buffy is valuable, but the way they went about it was messy. There was way too much time spent on babyfying Spike and focusing only on him and Buffy (and vice versa) instead of his relationships with the wider group and many other possibilities. It doesn't help that the second half of the season was already packed full of new characters and there was limited time for everyone.
I like that little moment in Him when Spike and Xander go take the boy's jacket together, it's a glimpse of what could have been if S7 took the time to focus on Spike's growth through his new dynamic with the other Scoobies. Meanwhile the conclusion of his fight with Robin Wood was completely wrong for his character at that point in time, only made worse by the fact that Buffy went along with it (shallowly echoing Robin's mother but for all the wrong reasons).
So yeah, there were many wrong calls in terms of Spike's 'redemption' journey from Seeing Red until the late S7. IMO him helping Buffy find the scythe, his speech to her in that random house, and his sacrificial ending were all very good calls, though.
Plus his arc in S5 of Angel and his dynamic with the team over there were definitely an improvement. I hope OP watches Angel too because Spike's development gets a lot better there.
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u/Classroom_Plastic Jul 19 '25
I would’ve loved to see more interactions between Spike and the rest of the group in S7. It feels like such a missed opportunity to see those relationships evolve.
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u/gremilym Jul 19 '25
So much of everything in S7 was a missed opportunity.
There was so much potential (no pun intended), and it was wasted. Literally, with all the ingredients and cast for a good story, it's annoying how badly the writers fumbled it.
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u/gremilym Jul 19 '25
i LIKE Spike, but the decisions for the characters and the show as a whole were terrible.
Totally agree with you!
Spike is such a great character, but the decisions made by the writers to try to shore him up were not only unnecessary but often counterproductive. They did literally every character a disservice in their efforts to make Spike central, and it would have worked better if they'd bothered to integrate him with the group instead.
Most of S6 and S7 suffer from poor characterisation - the characters don't behave in believable, consistent ways, instead they're just reduced to plot devices, and vehicles for dramatic tension or conflict.
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u/blackbuffysummers Jul 19 '25
I really appreciate you braving the Spuffy trenches of this subreddit and putting this together because it verbalizes one of my biggest issues with Spike: you can feel the show bend and contort itself around him to keep him around, both in terms of plot and in terms of in-universe rules re: how souls work. I can understand how Spike was popular because I do think James Marsters was a very handsome man who brought an entertaining British loverboy-turned-bad-boy character to life with his talent, but sometimes it felt as though the writers wrote to Spike's popularity and the wish fulfillment of that rather than the initial ethos of Buffy and how her friends set her apart from Slayers of the past.
I think you hit the nail on the head with speaking to how the idea of season 7 Spike being the person that truly understands her replaces the idea of her friends and family being her closest ones. I actually do appreciate some of the distance that develops for the Scoobies in season 7 as a narrative choice that prompts the almost militaristic approach Buffy had to adopt out of desperation and how it continues the distance of depression that was really felt prominently in the previous season 6 when Buffy comes back. But that then just circles back to the thing about Spuffy that I can never shake: Buffy's initial attraction/affection for Spike was rooted in Spike being the only person she could tolerate being around during the lowest mental health period of her life were Buffy felt empty inside, hated being alive, and barely felt like herself. Even when their connection in season 7 is less of Buffy arguably enacting emotional self-harm just to feel something and more of a mutually respectful relationship, it still feels a rapport that Buffy leans into to close herself off from all the other people in her life when she's not doing well. I'm not one who believes that all ships have to be "healthy" or non-toxic, I can certainly understand the appeal of Spike and by extension Spuffy; I just find it frustrating how much of it feels like Spike/Spuffy takes over Buffy/the show in a way that none of Buffy's other love interests did. I suppose that some could view that as evidence of their romantic compatibility, but even in moments in the show where Angel (not so much Riley, bless his heart) felt like Buffy's whole world, he never felt like her whole character narrative
On a more personal note as a Black fan of the show, I really appreciate your points about Spike and his influence on Robin's story. I do understand the context of Robin's emotions being counterintuitive to the last line of defense of Sunnydale vs the First and in some ways plays right into the First's plans, but it did give me the ick with how the narrative situated this Black character's trauma initiated through the hot white "redeemed" former monster fan fave's character development and the conclusion is not "I am guilty and I'm sorry for the harm I caused" but "Yeah, that's how it was and get over it bc my mommy loved me more than yours did"?????? It's interesting to juxtapose that plot point with the Angel Season 5 episode Damage (one of my favorites eps across both series) because THAT has the actual ensouled reckoning for the past that feels correct for Spike's redemption and atonement.
To circle back around to how Spike's presence on the show warps in-universe lore regarding souls, it never quite sat right with me how little difference there was between soulless Spike and ensouled Spike as a character. The way he able to still be so... glib? flippant? about his situation and what he's done short of a couple episodes of psychosis during early season 7 always felt off. I would imagine that time constraints of the show ending did not allow enough space for his guilt and reckoning to be really explored in BTVS, as well as his time spent with the chip and perhaps the nature of how he acquired his soul (which I do nottttttt like) were factors as well. People always complain about how Angel is broody and glum and it's like yeah, he SHOULD be! He's committed countless atrocities as Angelus and is always centering them as Angel as part of his atonement, whereas Spike in BTVS kinda got to breeze past that so we still get the Spike we know and love until he gets set over to Angel season 5.
This last bit doesn't flow as well, but it loops in some of the elements I spoke to earlier: in terms of warping the show's established rules around Spike and my experience of it as a Black viewer, I really cannot with how Spike can just.. go to * vaguely gestures * Africa and get back his soul. How did he get to Africa from a motorcycle in a short amount of time? Where in Africa is he? Why are we using Africa as a catch-all for mystical flair? How did he know that this can even be done? Are other vampires able to just go Africa and get their soul back? While I can't say that Spike ruined the show for me because the overall character is rich in ways that do align with some of the show's themes and James' performance is compelling, I do struggle with interacting with the fandom regarding Spike especially on this subreddit
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u/aceofspades85262 Jul 19 '25
Yeah as a black fan you notice a lot in TV lol, everyone else seems to look over Robin's character (sometimes even mistaking him for Gunn -_-) and how he only ends up developing the morally dubious white people around him (Spike, Faith) and when he does something morally dubious but completely understandable hes the bad guy unquestionably, and I actually wanted to turn the show off in s6 when Spike just, went to Africa, like god I hate when shows use Africa as a mystical catch-all. This all applies to kendra too, so wasted, a slayer who completely counters Buffy with her watcher upbringing, and just, dies in her 3rd appearance to little fanfare, tho I did have a little silent cheer every time mr pointy was on screen. And while im at it Gunn's actor elevated his first season appearances so hard, a cool character concept but blatantly just a stereotype in his early appearances, his actor however is amazing and Gunn deserves so much more love than this fandom gives him, I haven't finished Angel yet, because.....he (spike) looms over the next season (im almost done with s4) but I swear to god if i get there and Gunn is just, thrown aside for Spike I will make another much lengthier post about the racism in this series so help me god
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u/AIGLOS42 Jul 19 '25
I hope I get to read said post! IMO, Gunn gets done very dirty in Season 5 (though less for Spike vs. different problematic dynamics).
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u/Tiny-Reading5982 Jul 19 '25
Wesley always had sone jealousy towards gunn so I feel like thats why he blamed him for iilyria. But Fred and gunn was always better than Fred and Wesley..
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u/No-Ambassador-3944 Jul 19 '25
I completely agree with you and I appreciate your thoughts. I think they needed to let Spike/Spuffy go at a point, but couldn’t. Not saying he had to leave the show, but I think they should have dialed back his presence at least.
He was effective at exploring a toxic self-harm dynamic in s6 at Buffy’s lowest point, but it should’ve been left at that. Instead, the plot, narrative, Buffy’s development, relationships, etc became warped to further the Spuffy dynamic. It made no sense and felt like it was only for fanfare.
If you’ve seen the vampire diaries, it reminds me of how they ruined Elena’s character/development/plotlines to cater to her relationship with Damon bc the creator was obsessed with his character. Interestingly, the creator is a big fan of Buffy.
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u/avariciouswraith Jul 19 '25
I agree with everything you said here.
Spike really turns into a MarySue in the final season, incapable of doing wrong and anyone who brings up his horrible past actions must be the real villain. Not to mention the narrative twisting itself inside out to give him a get out of jail free card and the big win at the end.
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u/SoulConfessional90 Jul 19 '25
I also agree that Season 7 of Buffy, the girlfriend of Spike was pretty lame. The worst part being his sacrifice turned into not even a real redemption due to being brought back for Angel.
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u/DuckbilledWhatypus Jul 19 '25
I'm an OG Spuffy fan, I did enjoy them together, and I still absolutely agree about it ruining Spike. I like them as fuck buddies, it makes sense and it's hot. Trying to make them be anything more than stress relief sex was a terrible idea. Heck, the second Spike developed the crush in season five they just stopped trying to do anything fun or actually emotional with his character, then when they knocked down the house that was it for anything deeper than 'Oh he's tortured over Buffy'. And that includes giving him a soul because oh look, they just redid Angel.
I don't agree it ruined the wider series, they balanced it well enough for me in season six, but I do think it really hurt season seven. There was just so much going over and over the same conversation and outcome again and again. It stunted Buffy terribly just as you said, and trapped her in a storyline with no prospects, while taking away from the wider plot she should have actually been having.
This is the reason I like seasons one and two so much. MOTW meant that all the relationship drama and such was much more minimal and they had to be tight and clear with the arcing plot development because they didn't have as much screen time for it. Once they started being arcs rather than episodes they lost so much momentum, and Spuffy was a big part of that.
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u/Virtual_Ad3009 Jul 22 '25
Dang, your last paragraph is spot on. It took me about 20 years and twice that many rewatches, but season 1 & 2 have really grown on me, and the constraints of the MOTW format are a big part of what makes them so enjoyable now.
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u/DuckbilledWhatypus Jul 22 '25
I think people are swinging back that way a lot more. There's a charm to the early seasons that is often missing from the later ones. It's not that it's bad, it's just very different.
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u/NoAppointment8679 Jul 19 '25
I’m 35, so watched buffy the first time round, over and over again. I loathed buffy and spike together. I kinda still do. It made me feel all sorts of weird !! But I do love spike as a character, he is hilarious.
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u/Enkundae Jul 19 '25
We should feel weird about it. He stalked a highschool girl, tried to emotionally blackmail her into loving him through kidnapping, responded to rejection by stealing her underwear and made a sexdoll in her image, took advantage of her at her most vulnerable and ultimately responded to her ending things by trying to rape her. Spike was a predator from the start and the escalation was completely in character.
I do like Spike as a character in the story, but the part of the fandom that just wanted them to be Proto-Bella and Proto-Edward by pretending the blatantly toxic pairing was romantic actually has always skeeved me out.
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u/Enkundae Jul 19 '25
Angel was just as toxic but in different ways. Unlike Spike and Buffy, Angel and Buffy had a more genuine underlying love but love on its own isn’t inherently healthy and isn’t enough to build a positive relationship. The show made it very clear that regardless of their feelings any attempt at being together always resulted in pain. Buffy herself carries the emotional scars of her and Angels relationship throughout the series.
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u/Bitca99 Jul 19 '25
Spike stalked Buffy when she was in high school. See “School Hard” and “Halloween”.
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u/eVoesque Jul 19 '25
Same. I’m a forever Bangel fan and hated when Spuffy happened. I’m doing a rewatch right now with my gf (Buffy first timer) and we just passed Spike’s kissing dream in season 5. I realize I like Spike as a character and maybe if he’d gotten involved with another character, though not sure who, but it got so messy with Buffy. I think in the end she did have feelings for him, but she wasn’t in love with him like she was with Angel.
I still take joy in the fact Bangel went right to kissing each other in S7. And cookie dough.
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u/Smooth_Switch9058 Jul 19 '25
I love Spike, but I hate that they ruined Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies and even more Giles.
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u/lmjustaChad Jul 19 '25
What they did to Buffy and Giles relationship was so gross and so out of character.
Now the way Buffy treated all of her friends was just not fun to watch all these years and she has no respect for any of them values none of their advice they earned more than my way or the highway from her. Buffy emotional tantrums were ridiculous she learned nothing after all these seasons and continued to shut herself off could not even be bothered to learn the potentials names just passed them off for everyone else to deal with.
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u/angelusgirl Jul 20 '25
They were still humans and also manipulated by the demon in the hotel. And the become someone was in reference to Whistler asking him “I mean that you can become an even more useless rodent than you already are, or you can become someone. A person. Someone to be counted.” None of that necessarily means becoming a champion or hero or even redemption. He means vs living in sewers and eating rats. The choice to do more was ultimately Angels and later it did mean more. As he tells Buffy in Helpless, he wanted to protect her.
Angel: (quietly) I saw you before you became the Slayer.
Buffy: (confused) What?
Angel: I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and... and I loved you.
Buffy: Why?
Angel: 'Cause I could see your heart. (gets up) You held it before you for everyone to see. (walks to her) And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.
And a reminder that Angel was sired at 26 and Buffy was called at 15……
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u/JangoF76 Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
You've hit the nail on the head on why for me season 7 is the weakest season. 100% agree with everything. I honestly do not understand why Spike is so popular and especially why so many people love his and Buffy's oh so toxic relationship. It's so bizarre.
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u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! Jul 19 '25
Right? Ugh, so well written and explained. Op's the goat for this.
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u/CoffeeMilkLvr Giles’s left earring Jul 19 '25
This is an amazing post that made a point i did not think of, which being Spike replaces all her friends. I always disliked the notion a lot of people in the fandom has, saying that spike “is the only person who understands her” and disregards how all her other friends understand and relate to her. They’re quick to call everyone else toxic, but Spike somehow always gets away with it. If you gave any of Xander’s speeches to Spike, it would be seen as a beautiful scene. If you gave a Spike speech fo Xander, it would be considered gross and sexist.
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u/Dark_Aged_BCE Jul 19 '25
This is definitely similar to how I felt when I first watched the show back when it was airing. My feelings have changed over the years a little particularly in that I feel Buffy's response to the events of Seeing Red are more subtle, rather than nonexistent, and I think Spike's development as an ensouled vampire is developed a lot in Angel season 5, making him more interesting. In general though: yes. Thank you for being the one brave enough to say it.
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u/Snowpuppies1 It's a big rock. I can't wait to tell all my friends. Jul 19 '25
I can see your points. Don't think I agree so much, but as several ppl have mentioned. Very brave.
I think S7 honestly just had WAY too much going on, and a LOT of things that could have been awesome were left flailing a bit.
I don't know when exactly the decision was made, or when they started thinking about it, but I will say that since they ended up bringing Spike into the last season of A:tS, they did kinda need to spend a bit of real estate there to help with the tie-in.
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u/Adobin24 Jul 19 '25
So, you clearly gave it a lot of thought 😏. And yeah, brave post. I'm standing with you against most of the fandom tho.
I watched the series when it was first shown (I'm old). For me it was very simple. I quite liked Spike in the earlier seasons and laughed myself silly with Something Blue. And then Spuffy happened for real. Ewww, double ewww.
Never understood the worship of Spike and Masters and his amazing cheekbones. But from what I can see the actor is very nice to his fans, so all good.
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u/ImAMajesticSeahorse Jul 19 '25
You’re brave…but I agree with a lot of what you said, lol. Originally watching the show I loved Spike. Upon rewatching older? Sorry, Angel was Buffy’s true love. Yeah yeah yeah, I know, still not a healthy relationship. BUT, still better than Spike. Angel at least knew they couldn’t have a healthy relationship and made the choice. Spike was relentless. ALSO, I know people bring up Angel stalking Buffy and unless I missed context, don’t we see that it’s less about a “romantic stalking” and more about he had his soul and was just wandering around wallowing in self-pity, so whistler is like, maybe you can go help this girl who just found out she’s the slayer and actually do something good.
But that whole rant is an aside. Yes, the Spike/Buffy dynamic in season 7 is awful. There were other problems that fed into that, but I hated how she put him above all others. One of the issues that fed into their problematic dynamic was Buffy being in a leadership position and being questioned. The problem with that is that Buffy had been in a leadership position for a long time already. I get it was different because she had all the potentials and this was her “leading an army into war” but it never sat right with me. Especially the scene where she gets kicked out of her house. It was out of character for the core group. Giles would have at least tried to take the conversation out of the room instead of in front of everyone, and the issue should have been less about wanting to go back to the vineyard, and more about EVERYONE going back. Cause history had shown that Buffy did have very good instincts and the group would know that Buffy was likely right that Caleb was hiding something there. I hated how they all “turned on her” so Spike could be the big hero. Especially cause like you said, it seemed to undo a lot of the character growth we had seen from past seasons. And yes, fully agree that people’s very valid concerns with Spike were swept under the rug and they were villainized for bringing them up.
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u/arrpix Jul 19 '25
This is pretty much bang on how I feel. I loved early Spike, he's a fun villain, him and Dru are wonderful at bringing elements of traditional vampires but keeping it fun and interesting, and he only improves after Dru. When I was very young I didn't mind the crush as much but as an adult I think it's horrible but brilliant - the way that he became obsessed with Buffy, tried to manipulate her, blamed her for his emotions? It's ahead of its time and really encapsulates toxic misogyny in a nutshell, the idea that if the object of your affections doesn't like you back it's their fault. It made me strongly dislike Spike and I wish it had been a one and done storyline but it was good writing. Even with s6 the whole mess of Spuffy works within the show even though it makes me dislike Spike and again takes up way too much screentime, but like you after Seeing Red (which is entirely in character, it's not the first time Spike assaults Buffy) the way it focussed on it as a Spike character development moment is pretty terrible. Then s7... There's a couple of nice moments but I completely agree that the intense focus on Spike nearly ruins the themes of the season and it comes at the expense of some really promising, interesting characters, especially Wood who could have been so much more.
I rewatch the series regularly and recently introduced it to my partner for the first time, and starting in s5 but particularly in s7 he was so frustrated with the screentime Spike was getting. He eventually was suggesting we skip Spike scenes and asking if we revisit the other characters as well or if it's just all Spike. It nearly ruined the show for him, despite how much he'd been enjoying it before - and it's not that he didn't find Spike quite attractive, it's just a really bad balancing of the show. I love S7 but the middle is a slog, and so much of that is due to pushing everything aside to do Spike. I wish we could have seen what it would have been without that focus.
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u/jaronwinter27 Jul 19 '25
I LOVED spike in seasons 2-5 but I have so much trouble with him in season 6 and 7 for the reason you mentioned.
(I do love him again in season 5 of angel though, he’s back to the character I love and I would watch him and angel banter forever and never get sick of it)
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u/rincewind120 Jul 19 '25
I agree 1000% with this.
The important thing to remember is that the whole Buffy/Spike relationship was controversial as the show was airing. The fandom was split Spike as a love interest with many losing interest in the show as he became more prominent. I personally stopped watching during Season 7 when I realized that Spike was being set up as the most important person in Buffy's life.
Riley was set up as the big post Angel romance for Buffy, but the fans never embraced him. So Riley was written out and Spike moved from comic relief/untrustworthy ally into a romantic lead. The writers were trying to retain interest by catering to the Spuffy fans. But in order to justify Spike in that role, the other characters were diminished.
There was an article in Slate that summed it up for me.
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u/aceofspades85262 Jul 19 '25
wow this is such a cool article, glad to see people have always thought this way lol
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u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! Jul 19 '25
"Any interesting stories about a vampire with a soul have already been told on “Buffy” and “Angel”; with Spike, all we’ve been getting is a lot of half-naked posturing."
Damn. But yes, 100% agree.
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u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! Jul 19 '25
The fonzie comparison is too spot on. Buffy and Happy Days are perfect examples of turning from a show's essence to focus on a character bc he's popular can really only ruin everything.
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u/Sherman1388 Jul 19 '25
Spike is my favorite character ever
So I disagree with most of your points
But I respect your opinion nonetheless 🤙🏻
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u/Technical_Moose8478 Jul 19 '25
I really don’t get why he’s a fan favorite. I mean, he isn’t terrible or anything, but season four Spike was annoying, and the second half of season 7 Spike was just awful (I hated Spuffy and thought it was one of many terrible subplots crowbarred into the season).
Still, though. Season 2 Spike was awesome, his brief cameo in season 3 was a high point in a high point season, and his run on Angel was great. I’d say he’s in the upper middle for me.
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u/Squiliam-Tortaleni 5 by 5 Jul 19 '25
Don’t fully agree with everything you wrote, but everything about Robin is spot on. Everything up to his fight with Spike was really good, but then he just gets sidelined to a background character when there was definitely more for him
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u/MGr8ce Jul 20 '25
I’m of the unpopular opinion that Spike should’ve remained a “big bad” & never regained a soul. I loveee him in S2, and hate that he became a “good guy”.
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u/sparklyperson Jul 19 '25
Thank you for putting this out there! I agree with everything you said. The show focused way too much on Spike (which I believe was just fanservice) in the last two seasons. I ended up hating him because I was sick of him being the focus.
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u/StaticCloud What's with the Dadaism, Red? Jul 19 '25
It sounds like you have more of a problem with how season 7 was written than with Spike. Season 7 is heavy on the fan service and sidelining most of the scoobies. I like Spike a lot but season 7 is a big letdown and it was quite disappointing what they did (and did not do) with his character.
I think the hyperfocus on Spike was a marketing move, because the shows ratings were dropping and JM was hugely popular. Don't think the show should've been entirely worked around that - it was Buffy's show
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u/jenniebet Jul 19 '25
As a Spuffy fan, I completely agree with you on how poorly the aftermath of the attempted rape was handled, where his trauma over what he did was prioritized over her trauma of what he did to her. And the thing is, I do find their reactions to be in character for both of them - for Spike to be mired in remorse and Buffy to compartmentalize. But these storylines don't exist in a vacuum and it's clear that the writers didn't think about the real life implications of prioritizing the hurt feelings of someone who tried to rape his former lover. I get they wanted Spike to do something unforgivable so he'd be determined to get his soul, but they should have thought of something else to prompt that.
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u/fivebyfive12 Jul 19 '25
I absolutely agree with everything you've said, especially about series 7.
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u/a_crimson_herring Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
I agree with you completely as an OG "Spuffy" hater. It's frustrating that one has to be "brave" to post this. It shouldn't be that controversial to say that a character who (as you and others have noted--completely in line with their previous characterization) tries to rape someone on screen is no longer a good romantic lead. Even before that point, I always thought there was something really gross about the guy who was (presumably) fucking a Stepford Wives-style robot replica of Buffy ending up in a relationship with her. He dehumanized her so completely, even before the attempted rape, that he ONLY makes sense as someone Buffy sleeps with as a form of self-harm/expression of self-loathing and suicidality.
The only thing that redeemed Spike was his sacrifice and they ruined it by bringing him back. I always felt that was a last-ditch effort to save Angel after the clusterfuck of Season 4, and it didn't even work so it was just... Meaningless.
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u/yeahitsme9 Jul 19 '25
I have actually seen fans argue the bot is proof of how much he loves her and not his possessive nature, because the bot thinks she is pretty, confident, slays, and Spike goes down on it. Nevermind she is solely worried about Spike in amidst of her sister being in danger.
Obviously people can like whatever they want but I truly don't get the praise of Spike as a romantic lead beyond a fix him fantasy, I don't find his "devotion" to her to the point of finding a soul after Seeing Red romantic.
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u/mew-moo Jul 19 '25
Honestly, a very thoughtful post. And I agree with a lot of it. I, too, thought Robin's intro and story had so much potential and it kind of got thrown to the side. Yes, Buffy could've seen that being a Slayer isn't the end-all be-all, however, Robin's childhood wasn't much of that because his mother was still a Slayer, which put him in constant danger. At first watch, I truly didn't like Spike and was very against him being with Buffy right till the very end. I was an Angel stan, what can I say? But at the very very end, the last conversation with Spike, I guess I could see it. Upon second watch I felt a little better about Spike but ultimately, I prefer Soulless Spike. Upon my third (and last) rewatch, my feelings still stand about Spike, and pretty much for all the reasons you mentioned. Good post, thank you for putting it all into words.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Jul 19 '25
I feel like you’re blaming Spike, the character, when what you actually don’t like is the writing for Buffy in S7? Spike doesn’t ‘bend the entirety of the season around his existence’, he has no control over it.
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u/Jellybean199201 Jul 19 '25
I think it’s more of a writing thing but I do blame the character of Spike and the effect he had on the Buffyverse. He became this round peg they were constantly having to bang into the square hole of the show. He doesn’t really fit into the group so to ensure he doesn’t become isolated so much of his character then has to revolve around Buffy and takes up so much of her time. Her other relationships are just completely neglected so they can have her propping Spike up
By S7 they’re literally just making up new random plots to give Spike to do but not really doing much with any of them all while they ignore nearly every other character. The other characters are neglected to service Spike’s character. That’s why I blame the character of Spike for the last 2 seasons
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u/gremilym Jul 19 '25
He doesn’t really fit into the group so to ensure he doesn’t become isolated so much of his character then has to revolve around Buffy
This is what annoys me - because with good writing and someone who actually cared about any character other than Spike, he could so easily fit into the group.
He and Giles share a Shakespearean reference in S5, Spike has a literary past (when he was human), Spike was part of the punk scene. There are easy ways you could have common ground, grudging to begin with, forming between Giles and Spike.
Spike's first ever episode has him referring to Angel as his "Yoda" - this is a guy who has seen Star Wars. You're telling me he couldn't find common ground with Xander? Or Oz? The two guys who had an argument about what effects the different colours of kryptonite had on Superman?
Spike and Willow are maybe harder to patch together, but they both have emotional intelligence that the others lack, and I think Willow would be fascinated to learn more about vampires from Spike.
A writer who actually wanted to could have made Spike fit the group dynamic. To the point where Buffy could return from the dead to see Spike suddenly fit in really well with her friend group, and have to navigate that.
But nope! The writers wanted The Spike Show, and that's what they inflicted on the characters and the viewers.
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u/SafiraAshai Jul 19 '25
I think Spike and Willow could bond in the beginning of S7 over their recent evil past and fear of the rejection of the rest.
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u/TrueSonOfChaos Astronauts Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
Her isolation from her friends was the thing that had her running to Spike in season 6, and now in season 7, its the same thing, with entire arcs being ignored, in favor of the Spuffy ship.
Well, I can see how people might not like it but it's part of Buffy's personal growth story: only by resisting the Scoobies' social pressure is Buffy finally allowed to claim herself. Though the Scoobies "will always be friends" - Buffy needs room to grow into herself and that is what Spike represents for her: someone who wants her around even if she's beating the crap out of him. Buffy "can do no wrong" in Spike's social circle - think about how many times Giles, Willow and Xander (or even Dawn) came down on Buffy for something Buffy did or wanted to do. I mean, I'm not saying they're bad friends, but I think it makes her less good at being the Chosen One. The season concludes with the episode "Chosen." The alienation from the Scoobies that develops in S6 and carries on to S7 is deliberate but you're right it does shift the dynamic rather dramatically.
Like where you see Buffy descending into isolation, I see her finally standing tall on her own. In the very first episode Buffy makes pretty clear she doesn't want to be the slayer and if she just kept going along with Giles do you think she would have finally figured out how to use the scythe to imbue all the potentials? Giles didn't want her to go back to the vineyard but she knew she had to go! It's the main irony of the series: she had to become the Chosen One alone to figure out how to stop being the Chosen One.
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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Jul 19 '25
The whole point of the ending is that when Buffy works with her friends they can save the world. S7 certainly isn’t showing distance between the Scoobies as a good thing.
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u/starsandbribes I think the subtext here is rapidly becoming…text? Jul 19 '25
Spike in S5-7 felt like fulfilling fanfic of the girl who “loves the toxic boyfriend and thinks she can change him” trope. Arguably you can say Angel was the trope of “experienced wise older boyfriend to teach the young girl about life” trope too. I think in real life i’ve encountered the former more than the latter, so the Spike thing irked me more, even if the Angel thing is worse on paper with the age gap.
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u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! Jul 19 '25
The age gap is there with spike as well 😅
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u/Slight-Mud-6245 17d ago
It’s not the same. There’s a big difference between an underage schoolgirl and a woman in her 20s.
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u/4nglerf1sh Jul 19 '25
I agree. Not about the ruined the show bit, I love spike but only up until S5.
He peaks in S4 as a bit of comedy. I don't care for the romance or redemption.
Even aside from the Buffy Bot and Seeing Red... it seemed to me Spuffy was written in for the fans rather than an organic storyline (idk if that's how it went down, I'm saying that's how it feels to me).
Seeing Red is a post in itself and there are many on it.
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u/Furies03 Jul 19 '25
Spike is great in the early seasons as a villain/comedy relief and regains that status in Angel season 5, but seasons 5-7 of Buffy he really drags the whole thing down.
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u/PinkamenaDP Jul 19 '25
THANK YOU
Geez it seems like no one realizes that the show went from Buffy the Vampire Slayer to Spike the Vampire Lover. Yeah Spike was a great character because yeah James is a good actor. But he did overstay his welcome in my opinion not by his own doing but by the showrunners and studioheads wanting him in the show.
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u/zarryspolo Jul 19 '25
I’m a Spike and Spuffy fan ig and I appreciate your viewpoint. I might be in the minority of spike fans when I say I don’t like him with a soul. I think it made him less interesting and unique. His personality was muted. I agree season 7 spike isn’t the greatest. I honestly love Robin and I hated how they treated his and spikes characters together. Robin has such an interesting backstory and he could’ve been utilized more but was used as a tool to further spikes storyline. For me, spikes best storyline in season 7 was sacrificing himself to save the world. It showed he did kind of redeem himself by putting the world first and not himself. He didn’t get a happy ending but a hero’s ending ig. I do think his romance with Buffy was my fav of the show. Their dynamic was great to watch but seeing red was awful and made me hate spike for a long time when I first watched. O enjoy watching their relationship unfold from enemies to fuck buddies to lovers but I’m glad they don’t actually end up together. Anyway, I do enjoy spike and disagree that he ruined the show but I do think the end his character was kind of tainted by the soul.
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u/at_midknight Jul 20 '25
I will never understand how people come to this conclusion about Seeing Red. I honestly think there's another version of season 6 and Seeing Red that all the people with wrong opinions have collectively watched that I am just unaware of. That is my only possible explanation for how off these interpretations of the story at hand always are. Season 7 has problems, but the community consistently and regularly puts out complaints that make me question if they actually watched the show
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u/Agile_Associate_5611 Jul 20 '25
The main problem with season seven is that they had three seasons of material to stuff into one season. They couldn't resurrect Tara (which Whedon stated he would have preferred if he'd had time). Several of the big bads couldn't get their reprise. (Did you notice how Caleb sometimes spoke like Glory? Those were meant to be her lines.) Robin Wood, Faith, several of the potentials, and I think Drusilia, all had their arcs dropped nearly entirely. But that's the networks fault. Josh (for all his unforgivable faults) wanted to do better.
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u/The_Meridian_ Jul 19 '25
I've said it before, I'll say it again, simply: Spike=Poochy
Less annoying, less hamfisted, more appreciated but Poochy nonetheless.
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u/TomsWindow Jul 20 '25
“I have to go now. The spinoff show needs me.”
Spike’s animation cell is abruptly lifted into Angel season 5.
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u/SafiraAshai Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
I completely agree, S7 taints the show for me.
They haven't even decided what Robin's story was gonna be till the middle of the season. I am not against the idea he should get over his need for revenge, but that episode just served to a undignified conclusion to prop up Spike and did not make Buffy look any better as a leader.
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u/AIGLOS42 Jul 19 '25
A huge problem in Season 7, and a repeat of 4's floundering, is the shooting schedule getting ahead of the writing. That only enhanced the dynamic OP is talking about.
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u/NoHomoHannibal Jul 19 '25
im watching for the first time, a third of the way through s6 and honestly ive intensely disliked spike since the buffy sex robot episode, i know hes 'soulless' and deluded with obsession during that time but holy fuck buffy shouldve got the stake out after that. im already annoyed with how much the other characters are pushed aside for him and to hear it gets worse in s7 its making this series hard to keep going
really enjoyed the first few seasons but im finding it a bit of a slog now with it being the spike show
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u/Academic-Balance6999 Jul 19 '25
I agree with 98% of what you wrote, I just still love spike. I usually ignore the S6-7 character evolution / plot points as I don’t like those seasons so much besides a couple of good eps.
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u/Salty-Enthusiasm-939 Jul 19 '25
I agree he overstayed his welcome (for obvious reasons) at the expense of other characters.
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u/Pretty_and_demented Jul 19 '25
I completely agree with everything you wrote, loved early Spike but once he got with Buffy I was over him. I believe he should have left the show after season 4 - there wasn't much for him to do outside of pining for Buffy after that. Also I'm not a fan of Spuffy at all. Bring on the downvotes!
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u/Eve-23H A vague disclaimer is nobody’s friend! Jul 19 '25
I agree with everything you’ve said in this post, especially as it pertains to Robin Wood. That storyline was handled so badly. I like Spike but making season 7 revolve so much around him is part of what dragged it down.
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u/Agreeable-Celery811 Jul 19 '25
Some people really like Spike’s redemption arc and romantic story, and some people don’t.
I agree that Season 7 was weirdly balanced in the sense that they didn’t come up with interesting storylines or development for most of the characters. I’m not sure that was because they spent too much energy on Spike. Surely they could have paid attention to the whole main cast, like they did in other seasons. They just didn’t, or not successfully.
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u/zoobenaut Jul 19 '25
I agree with a lot of what you said. I love Spike as a villain but I hate what he becomes. It’s evident for a while that the writers kept him around because he was popular but didn’t quite know what to do with him. The things I love about Spike are slightly tainted by who he became and by the Spike stans.
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u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! Jul 19 '25
Agreed. If he had continued as a villain who shows up here and there, Spike would be perfect tbh.
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u/Several-Praline5436 Jul 20 '25
I loved Spike in season two. Love him in Angel's final season. He has funny moments later on, but I never liked him with Buffy, I hated his attempt to assault Buffy, how she used him as a sex toy, etc. That entire thing is just ick to me.
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u/mutedtempest19 Your logic is insane and happenstance Jul 19 '25
Agreed on pretty much every point. I loved Spike through season 4, since he was amusing as hell and a good foe/sometimes ally when it suited him. Then the obsession with Buffy started and ruined him for me completely. Love is great but that...just wasn't love at all. And they made it such a huge plot point because the character and the idea of Spuffy were so popular. The weird sex stuff in season 6, okay fine, I can see that as a coping mechanism for Buffy - but there was just so freaking much of it shown that it got old really fast, and Buffy's back and forth over it all was kinda overdone since she'd already done the same damn thing with Angel just minus all the banging. It just seemed narratively useless and melodramatic, and I guess in a season focusing on melodrama and detachment it kinda makes sense, but it's just not enjoyable to me since I don't think it adds much of anything to the story except seeing two incredibly attractive people almost naked in various acrobatic positions. Yay, but for as much screen time as it got Spuffy sex could be considered its own character.
After he got his soul, okay maybe he did love her. I don't know. The show and the comics do their best to hammer home that he did, and he's definitely better than he was before, but I still don't see it. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I just never saw them as being in love with each other, just various iterations of obsession, attraction and close friendship/being allies.
I blame the writing in season 7 more than I can blame Spike, since the writers made the decision to focus so much on him. But I was just over him by that point so was bored the majority of the time he was onscreen. I do think the distance from the Scoobies was needed so they could all see they needed to work together in the end, just like with the Adam scenario where Spike drove them apart. Kinda a mirror of that, although this time Spike wasn't being nefarious with an ultimate goal (aside from being better for Buffy, which in itself is problematic, but I digress).
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u/shingaladaz Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
I couldn’t have said it better, OP. I’ve said it countless times on this sub; Spike is a fantastic character acted to perfection by JM, but the show took it too far with him and with Spuffy. It really does ruin the show.
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u/Particular-Employ326 Jul 19 '25
Finally someone feels the same way as I do. I wanted the show to focus on Buffy not on a toxic relationship
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u/Klutzy-Koala-9558 Jul 19 '25
I agree I love Spike prior to his crush on Buffy then he was disgusting.
Season 7 over corrected too much to make him a shadow of his former self.
But him wearing Nikki overcoat infront of Robin was low that was something old Spike would do.
To me I prefer Spike at his smart ass snarky self not having his story turn into Angel 2.0 which all it was copying Angel storyline.
Same thing happens on Angel when they try and change Cordelia into Buffy, Joss admitted to that. Both series try to recapture the Angel Buffy storyline which was huge at the time.
I prefer Spike on Angel as he back to his old self and finds a nice balance instead of just being there as Buffy LI yes Angel had the same problem on Buffy.
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u/brian_ts118 Jul 19 '25
I agree. I enjoy Spike up to around mid season 5 and then I get so tired of him, and Season 7 might as well be called The Spike Show, featuring Buffy.
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u/Bobbyjackbj Jul 19 '25
I'm in complete agreement, and honestly, props to you for speaking up. I stopped a long time ago because the downvotes were just brutal 🙃
For me, it started feeling like The Spike Show. I actually like the character, but I missed seeing Buffy connect with Willow, Xander or Giles. They literally threw her out of her own house, and of course, it was Spike comforting her, not Xander, Willow, or Giles. Maybe it stemmed from behind-the-scenes drama ? But yeah, so frustrating..
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u/noseylady82 Jul 19 '25
This is exactly how I feel! I loved spike as an enemy. But it after season 5, it turned me off. I loved the show and this made me stop watching for a while. This and what they did to Buffy’s character. I eventually made myself watch the rest, but I fast forward a lot.
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u/Responsible-Ship-752 Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
I usually avoid weighing in on later season Spike discussions since I stopped watching Buffy at Season 5. But the main reason I lost interest was I saw the writing on the wall with Spike’s character and I had no interest in seeing it through. Additionally, I do think I outgrew the show in general and, except Buffy, none of the characters really drew me in.
Early Spike was fun but I remember mainly being drawn to Drusilla and her connection to Angel rather than being interested in Spike himself. Peak Spike for me was his one episode in season 3 and his early guest role in Angel.
In the end, I think his character is best in small doses- even in Angel Season 5, while I think overall they used him well, there are a few eps that are just too focused on him.
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u/TheDoctor9229 Jul 19 '25
Yeah this is really spot on. What they should’ve done is just replace spike with faith
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u/Chokolla Jul 19 '25
I agree with everything you said and i’m glad i’m not the only one thinking that bc it feels lonely sometimes lmao
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u/Eastern-Ant-4173 Jul 19 '25
Spike was great early seasons, but the whole Spuffy thing gives me the creeps. Buffy learned nothing from becoming involved with a vampire from Angel, which was creepy on a whole other level.
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u/OppositeTooth290 Jul 19 '25
Buffy’s biggest character flaw (in a good way”all good characters have flaws” way) is that she doesn’t communicate. She doesn’t tell her friends or her family what she’s thinking or feeling and tries to carry it all herself. The climax of season 7 beginning with her friends kicking her out and her only having spike to turn to doesn’t mean to me that the season is bent around Buffy and spike, it’s a moment where Buffy has to learn to trust her friends enough to listen to them and communicate with them. While spike was the only person she could turn to in that moment, she has a realization that spike isn’t enough, she doesn’t want just spike, she wants the trust she had with her friends to be rebuilt.
Season six and seven have spike as a character she can turn to no matter what, even if it is not healthy or good. Season 6 Buffy works through self harm and isolation by engaging in the super toxic relationship with spike, season 7 sees both Buffy and spike dealing with the consequences of that relationship and learning to lean on each other, and in Buffy’s case other people, in healthy ways.
I do feel strongly that seeing red wasn’t handled well but I also credit that being the early aughts and sexual assault as a plot line was something that was breezed over all the time on many shows. There wasn’t nearly enough focus on Buffy’s feelings, but also not a lot of room to explore that between the end of season 6 and the ramping up of season 7
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u/rexilla89 Season 1-7 Enjoyer Jul 19 '25
I'll never understand the blame people put on Spike/Buffy for the fractured relationship between the scoobies in the later seasons, to me Buffy's isolation from her friends and family because she's the slayer has been a recurring thing throughout the entire series
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u/OppositeTooth290 Jul 19 '25
Yes! Buffy has always burdened herself by not talking to her friends and also not listening to them. It’s part of what makes her such a well rounded character. Buffy keeps the people she loves at arms length and then suffers the consequences of that. Spike just happened to be an outlet for her feelings in 6 and 7, not the thing driving her to push her friends away.
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u/hyenacore Jul 19 '25
To be honest season 7 didn't need to happen. I say this as someone who loves the show. But from a writing standpoint it could've ended with season 6.
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u/OgreFromROTN Jul 19 '25
I agree with this post wholeheartedly. Spike from Season 1 up to Tabula Rasa in Season 6 was a likeable character. Afterwards, I was starting to get sick of him being in the show even before his attempted r@pe of Buffy, which a lot of fans try to gloss over… there should be no coming back from that. Buffy had romantic partners before, but they were never a replacement for the Scooby Gang and Dawn, as Spike became.
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u/George_Reiner Jul 20 '25
Agree completely and then he went to angel and ruined that too, which is really disappoint since he's one of the best actors
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u/xilo_uhrand Jul 19 '25
I 10000000% agree. I love Spike in season 2,3, &4. But agree that his character peaked in season 4. It went downhill in a big way. 99% of my rewatches stop after season 4 for this reason (and a few others). Thanks for sharing your indepth perspective! It’s refreshing to see.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Owl225 Jul 19 '25
I 100% agree with you. It didn't ruin the show for me but I agree with all your points. It just sucks to think about what could have been if the writing had been better, especially in season 7.
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u/generalkriegswaifu They're not recycling Jul 20 '25
I wasn't a fan of his addition on Angel either. Maybe it was necessary to keep ratings up for both shows but he severely overstayed his welcome for me, even as early as S4. In S7 the characters I was actually interested in were Anya and souled Spike, the show did nothing with one and managed to fill up half the season with the other without doing anything interesting there either.
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u/abiron17771 Jul 19 '25
I do agree with you as well. This is a fully developed prefrontal cortex take. When I watched the entire show in my teens, I thought Spike was such a cool, hot character. I am just rewatching now (and listening to The Rewatcher pod alongside) and see Spike as such a broken person. Folks saying the sexual assault is so out of character and came out of nowhere, I don’t think it is. You can see him becoming more possessive and obsessive as the season progresses, and he even pushed it on previous encounters when Buffy said no and then eventually relented. I don’t like the show showing how tortured HE is from the assault. I don’t enjoy being made to feel like I have to sympathize with him. It almost normalizes sexual assault in a way, by having Buffy move on like nothing happened and showing Spike as this tortured poet. I haven’t re-watched season 7 yet so my opinion may change.
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 Jul 19 '25
Well her being driven from her friends and leaning on Spike more might have a little to do with them all turning on her and kicking her out of her own home. The writing when it came to Spike and Buffy was always great. But it didnt make sense they would kick her out after one bad move. Just like Buffy said they were fighting a war and sometimes the leader makes a bad call.
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u/McTerra2 Jul 19 '25
You don’t see the ‘kicking out of home’ plot as the epitome of what the OP is talking about - that the whole season was warped in ridiculous ways to ensure Spike was at the centre?
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 Jul 19 '25
Maybe im not fully understanding the post. But OP explains in season 6 yeah she learns to open up to her loved ones after isolating herself and isolating herself with Spike in an unhealthy way
Season 7 is that flipped. The gang pushed her away and Spike was there for her with no expectations. Season 7 was heavy on the two of them and Spikes story because it was hus redemption arc culminating at the end
In the scheme of things it was just a bad patch in the Scooby gangs history. They had never been pushed that far but they came back around in the end. I dont think it was handled especially well by the writers but I dont think Spike was forced down our throats necessarily either.
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u/McTerra2 Jul 19 '25
The gang didn’t push her away, they were all there fully supporting her until this one episode, which was purely to set up that Spike was ‘the one’ to be there for Buffy. Which was the complete opposite to the message the show had been giving for at least the first 5 seasons ie the slayer succeeds because of her friends.
There was no logic to them kicking Buffy out - perhaps they could have said they don’t trust her choices or as leader anymore, but the kicking out was ridiculous and to have Dawn do it makes no sense given her history of being desperate for Buffys attention.
Hence it can really only be seen as a very clunky way for the writers to get Buffy and Spike ‘together’, which raises the issue of the OP - why was having Spike so involved the storyline? Spike should have been less involved and the original gang + Dawn becoming the central part of the show / Buffys life and the entire focus.
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 Jul 19 '25
I agree they shouldn't have kicked her out. That was odd. But it also wasnt out of no where. Buffy had been growing tougher and tougher on the group out of pressure to get them ready. The one potential who committed suicide she called "an idiot" which really turned off a lot of them then she proceeded to pick apart each of them including Spike. The tough love worked for Spike and made him go from John Mellencamp back to Billy Idol. The same speech didnt work for the others and planted the seed. After the Winery they were defeated and scared and Buffy was trying to get them to go right back. I dont think the decision came out of nowhere at all. They weren't warriors and they revolted out of fear. I didnt like Dawn turning on her sister of course but I think that was due to what the First said to her in CWDP. The First had been spending the whole time trying to sperate them and turn them on each other. It succeeded briefly but Buffy had to get her own speech from Spike before coming back
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u/SafiraAshai Jul 19 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
No, because that happened in the 20° episode, and until then all her friends minus Giles were very supportive of her.
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u/truthbeseen Jul 19 '25
Yeah, I was mad at the scoobies. I thought their lack of trust in Buffy and snap agreement to let Faith lead was absolutely out of character for them. They all have known throughout the entirety of the show that apocalypses likely lead to death or injury. They faced a hell god for crying out loud. It’s not their first brush with scary situations. Buffy had proven to be a good leader. Faith has proven to be selfish impulsive and to have a weak moral compass. There is absolutely no way her friends would trust faith over Buffy. That made zero sense unless they were swayed by all the scared teenage wannabes. Also Dawn literally did kick her out. She said it’s my house too. You need to leave. Need further evidence Buffy is the best leader? I wouldn’t have went back to save them. I’m that petty. You thought faith was so much better? Let’s see her get you out of this one.
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u/Gileswasright Jul 19 '25
Spikes my favourite bad guy turned good guy. BUT his character gets assassinated for sure. But we all know how Joss felt about him, so there’s that.
Nicely written OP.
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u/Slow-Philosophy-7841 Jul 19 '25
I agree except, Spike was a character beloved and joined the scoobies by s5. But the dreadful s6x19 scene and dull s7 did indeed hurt Spike alot. Spike was still popular enough character to join Angel s5 but I figured Joss Whedon was lowkey trying to destroy Spike since he wanted to kill Spike off in s2. In conclusion JW actually ruined the show using the character Spike since James Marsters was contracted to do a lot of stuff he didn’t want.
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u/Say_it_how_it_is_87 Jul 20 '25
I fully respect this post — seriously, because Spike has such a massive, loyal fanbase that it’s not easy to share a take like this.
I do love Spike. Especially early Spike. He was honestly one of my favorite parts of the show up until about Season 5. He was hilarious, sharp, sarcastic — just the perfect wildcard. His dynamic with Drusilla was iconic. His one-liners, his dry humor, and the way he’d just swoop in and make everything more chaotic and entertaining — that’s the Spike I love. Even his guest spots on Angel were amazing because he brought that same irreverent energy.
But I completely agree with you about how the show handled him later on. I really do feel like the writers didn’t do him justice in the end. He ended up turning into something he wasn’t — basically Angel 2.0, mopey and brooding, when we needed Spike to stay Spike. His soul arc just didn’t work for me because part of what made him so interesting was that he didn’t have a soul and yet could still be unpredictable and complicated in his own way, but still want to help.
It felt like the whole show bent around him in Season 7, and I agree that it hurt other characters and Buffy’s arc too. He deserved better writing than to just morph into a tragic, tortured love interest when he was so much more fun — and more unique — before that.
So yeah, I 100% agree with you. Spike was amazing, but they changed him too much, and it took away what made him stand out from Angel in the first place. I’ll always love early Spike though — the wit, the chaos, the snark — that’s what made him special.
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u/Simple_Tart9548 Jul 21 '25
I love Spike's character so I obviously don't agree with your post. In my opinion, Spike is the best character of the show and saves season 7:)
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u/Glad_Educator_3231 Jul 21 '25
I agree with most of this. I like Spike as a character not a love interest for Buffy. S4 he’s comic relief and they think of the flimsiest of excuses to keep him alive. by the end of S4 and seemingly the entirety of S5 they seem to give up on excuses not to dust him. S6 is a tough one for me as I’m never a Spuffy shipper. S7 was so close to being excellent imo with a few minor tweaks. One being NOT making Spike the co lead. Another would be not gaslighting Buffy and the viewers for Spike trying to rape her. Or the chip, or her using him. Or Robin being upset his mom was murdered. Buffy leaving the house was hard and another contrived way to send Buffy to Spike. THEN! Spike essentially replaces Cordelia in Angel S5 and again, hogs the spotlight from the actual lead when he otherwise would have had an amazing send off.
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u/CleanUpOnAisle10 Jul 21 '25
I agree with a lot of your points, although Spike’s evolution through out the show is one of my favorite parts especially knowing it wasn’t planned from the jump. He was never a character that was supposed to stick around. I definitely wish s7 was handled better as you said, the whole season 7 while has grown on me over the years, is very rushed.
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u/DismalAdvice8991 Jul 22 '25
Spike was always interesting and, on the whole I was glad of his presence. So many people liked him that he shows up in the last season of Angel. Great. I would miss him if they had finished him off, permanently.
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u/Immediate-Ice-9070 Jul 22 '25 edited 1d ago
I don't entirely agree with this analysis on Spike but I can understand frustration behind his characterization in the last two seasons. For me, it wasn't Spike who took away attention from rest of main characters, it was the potentials, the narrative became all about them in the second half of season 7 and all the main characters including Spike was shifted to the background.
So, there is an argument to have that all the characters were shortchanged in the last season. It just that given the circumstance the writers were able to do more with Spike than the other main cast.
I don't agree with the idea of season seven permanently ruining her reputation with the rest of the Scoobies. I do get annoyed by fans who insist that Scoobies betrayed Buffy for not wanting to go along with her bad plan. Buffy was acting like an authoritarian but somehow the Scoobies were bad friends for not giving her undying loyalty. That isn't genuine friendship that is a cult of personality, it really rubs me the wrong way how fans think Buffy has bad friends for daring call her out on her b,s.
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u/Defiant-Albatross-46 Jul 24 '25
James Marsters said he always turned down roles in any film that included SA. He took the role in Buffy because there was not SA in the first scripts he got. In season 6 when he got that script, he was very surprised and talked to the writers at length. He was also surprised that a woman wrote that scene and said something like 'she wanted to show how strong Buffy is' (I don't remember exactly). He didn't feel good about it, decided to do it for his job, then had to go to therapy to deal with how the scene impacted him mentally. He feels really bad about it. I think he talked about it on the Inside of You/Michael Rosenbaum podcast.
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u/EstablishmentSad5063 You made a bear! UNDO IT! Jul 19 '25
That's a bold move. And I greatly disagree with what you're saying. But because it's so brave, I'm just gonna go and pretend I never saw this.
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