r/buffy • u/NationalCamp2740 • 6d ago
Content Warning In defense of "The Scene" in Seeing Red
(TW: Discussion of sexual assault)
Season 6 of Buffy is my favorite. I think it has some of the most masterfully-written, character-driven arcs in the show. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea—if you didn't have a very self-destructive phase in your early 20s, I can see it being hard to relate to—but as someone who watched it during said phase it was incredibly cathartic.
One thing I've noticed on this subreddit though is that people seem to almost universally regard Spike's attempted assault of Buffy in Season 6 as a huge misstep. Not as something that they didn't enjoy watching, but as something that was poorly executed and should not have been in the show.
Whether the show could have not included that scene...that's up for debate. There's a strong argument for minimizing sexual violence in media for many reasons. It was also a bad experience for the actors and not handled as well as it should have been behind the scenes, as many things were not in the filming of Buffy.
However, I wanted to point out that it is one of the best executed instances sexual violence I have ever seen. And I took a full class in college called "Sexual Violence in the Media" (would not recommend unless you enjoy being triggered for 4 months straight). Let me tell you there are so many poorly executed scenes of sexual violence in incredibly well regarded pieces of media. And this one doesn't fall into any of what I would call the cardinal sins of depicting assault on screen.
- It in no way confuses sex and rape. Despite Buffy and Spike having a lot of hot sex in the season, this scene is absolutely not one of them. The way it's filmed is clinical, cold, and removed. It is deeply and deliberately unsexy in a way that is undeniable. Everything about it makes it clear that this is an act of violence. The framing does not excuse it or enjoy it on any level. I cannot express to you how common it is for rape scenes that are supposedly condemning the act seem to relish in it. Rape-revenge movies in particular looooove to show excessive and confusing imagery that frames the moment as hot even while wagging a finger. The camera is not voyeuristic; it's almost documentary like. The fish-eye lens in particular makes the image sickening.
- It's not gratuitous. The entirety of Season 6 has been exploring power and the abuse of power in intimate relationships. This is the culmination and natural conclusion of Buffy and Spike's poor boundaries, violence, and lack of respect for each other. Sure, hypothetically, maybe the plot could have accomplished this some other way, though I'm not convinced. And unfortunately, it's realistic. In one study, 44% of reported assaults were from a partner or former partner, so it's not like this is some kind of made up and impossible scenario. It also parallels the trio and Katrina.
- There's realistic fallout. While obviously it affects her deeply, Buffy doesn't become an irreparable shell of a person, or fall into the broken doll trope. However, it's still obvious that it does affect her, and probably will continue to affect her on some level forever.
- On the other side of the equation, Spike isn't excused by the narrative or other characters. Even after he gets his soul back, he doesn't act like it's a get out of jail free card (unlike Angel on some level). He has to follow the very hard and painful path of restorative justice. As he works to redeem himself, his goal is not to get back with Buffy, but to in some way atone. He never treats the restoration of trust as a foregone conclusion.
Jessica Jones and I May Destroy You are probably the only shows I've seen personally that handle the matter with as much care and respect. There's always room for improvement, so I would definitely not endorse the depiction 100%, and I think critique is entirely valid. I totally understand hating the scene—that's a very healthy reaction. But I think it deserves its due as a very nuanced and well done portrayal of sexual violence in a sea of exploitative media.
158
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
I agree. I also agree with the general goal of minimizing sexual violence in media as a lot of it is gratuitous or even as you mentioned celebratory, but I don't think this falls into either of those categories.
The best argument I can see for not including it is the effect it had on the actors, specifically James seemed pretty traumatized by it. I don't think they had intimacy coordinators back then, and it at least should have been handled better behind the scenes.
But from a story, media, or social perspective, I think it was important and maybe be even essential.
A lot of people balk at it especially because they were enjoying romanticizing Spuffy in season 6, which if you don't think about it too hard, is a messy and sexy relationship, so they're shocked by the violence. But this is where I thought things were going from the moment they hooked up.
Spike was still evil obsessed and abusive, buffy was depressed and using him, and every time their boundaries were blurred, I cringed. Every time she said no and he pulled her back in felt like a foreshadowing and I got progressively more uncomfortable.
That scene on the balcony in the bronze (you know the one) creeped me the f out and is almost harder for me to watch than the scene in seeing red because it's so obvious that the lines of agency and consent are being played with in a really unhealthy way.
In the end Spike keeps pushing boundaries and playing along so long as he's getting what he wants, but as soon as it's taken away and the boundary is enforced he lashes out and tries to take it, which is exactly what an evil abusive violent partner without a soul would do.
Furthermore I think Buffy is on some level aware of this danger. She knows she's playing with fire and she knows what he's capable of, that's why she's so ashamed and distraught when she finally talks to Tara about it.
So yeah in my opinion, this is where s6 and any kind of Spuffy relationship without a soul was always headed. And it's an important, albeit very uncomfortable scene.
58
u/coldbloodedjelydonut 6d ago
Yes, exactly, and thank you for referencing the nature of their sexual relationship being violent. People get so mad when I've said that in the past. Spike in Seeing Red was continuing what they've already done. It was a natural progression and while she was reluctant, she didn't try to stop him before. It wasn't consent, but it was compliance. The second she stopped being compliant, he tried to push through it as he had in the past. He tried to make her compliant again.
I think his reaction once he realized "the game had changed," showed how much he didn't actually intend to force her, he wanted to coerce her (which is also f*cked, but with their blurred lines it was acceptable in their relationship to this point). I've been in this exact situation with a person I trusted, we'd never had any intimacy of that nature before. I was able to say something that made him stop and he was shocked and horrified. He never made it up to me. I think Spike found some redemption. He shouldn't have done what he did. At least he tried to make it right, I have to give him that.
17
u/foreseethefuture 6d ago
Furthermore I think Buffy is on some level aware of this danger. She knows she's playing with fire and she knows what he's capable of, that's why she's so ashamed and distraught when she finally talks to Tara about it.
SPIKE: (quietly) I don't hurt you.
He walks a few steps away.
BUFFY: I know.
8
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
Right except for all the times he hurt her.
3
u/foreseethefuture 6d ago
I am giving a quote of her agreeing that Spike wouldn't hurt her, which contradicts your idea
11
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
Except for all the times he's hurt her and she knows he has. So clearly she knows he would hurt her.
Do you want to start with the number of times he's punched her in the face or the death threats, maybe the violent sex because that's more recent.
She knows he's dangerous, obviously, it's part of why she kept leaving him.
And he's obviously lying to himself and her because he absolutely would and does hurt her again.
4
u/foreseethefuture 6d ago edited 6d ago
I believe she knows but ignores it because she has a blindspot, and that she doesn't want to be with him more so because of disgust by what he is. She only ever seems mildly annoyed/grossed out by Spike going into her house, stealing her things or even chaining her up.
8
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
The context of that conversation is that she's breaking up with him and he's trying to tell her he's changed. She's placating him.
I think we have to remember that Buffy is not an idiot. She knows that Spike is a murderer who, if his hands weren't tied, would be out murdering every night. That he loves in an obsessive and sometimes violent way, and that she is the one person in the world he can physically harm.
She knows he is a threat. She knows he could attack her if things go south. She's telling him what he wants to hear but shes the freaking slayer, she hasn't forgotten what he is.
12
u/foreseethefuture 6d ago edited 6d ago
It wasn't her breaking up with him. It was from when she suspected Spike hid The Trio's cameras in her house and he says he wouldn't do that.
3
u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 6d ago
He at the time ahdn't hurt her inthe personal way the Trio's cameras did.
-13
u/beeemkcl 6d ago
The AR didn't make sense because Spike would have never done such a thing to Drusilla and would have never done such a thing to Harmony Kendall.
If anything, it's almost certain that Spike simply lied to Buffy in "Never Leave Me" (B 7.09) and that he hadn't r@ped anyone before.
24
6
u/jospangel 5d ago
Of course he would have done it to Dru. And Dru would have laughed, or cheered him on, or scratched his eyes out and had his balls for breakfast.
Demon love is not healthy for humans in a lot of ways.
12
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
Yeah what show were you watching? You remember the first time he showed up he attacked a school with children in it. You do remember how he treated harmony, he fully stakes her...
32
u/Open-Salamander-9640 6d ago edited 6d ago
I agree that it was a shocking but accurate depiction of sexual violence. And I can 100% see how the show led up to that moment. The power dynamics, the dysfunction, all of it. Did I personally hate that it was Spike? And that an actor I love had to endure something so painful? Yes, of course!
All those things aside, I do wonder if this scene would’ve been a more powerful (and clear-cut) depiction of sexual violence and the road after had it happened between two humans?
While I do agree that Spike had to atone and there was some fallout from his actions, his road to redemption is inherently easier since he’s a vampire. People on this sub still debate the ethics today (ie- the concept of a soul and how that does or does not make him as culpable and/or easier to forgive. Some say it’s a cop-out. Some don’t.) The guilty party does some soul searching (literally) and he eventually becomes the love interest again.
Then again- maybe it had to be a “soulless vampire”. I’m not sure the network would’ve allowed that same scene to air during that time period if the characters were both humans.
8
u/BluFaerie 6d ago
I don't know if he is ever really the love interest in s7. He's still in love, and some of the fans sure are, but Buffy keeps her distance. I think he reaches the level of trusted friend with her by the end of s7.
The soul thing is especially weird because souls are a weird kinda mystical concept to begin with. It's kind of a stand in for a conscience or maybe empathy, sometimes it's a separate personality.
Spike kinda breaks the lore of the show with this. Like is Spike, the character that was evolving in s4-6 now sitting in the backseat to William the way Angelus is with Angel, just observing everything?
If so, William has all of Spikes memories and personality and loves Buffy, but is he culpable for anything Spike did?
Bringing an unknowable like a soul into an equation like this gets very muddy very fast.
1
u/jospangel 5d ago
That makes no sense unless you think that it's Liam and Angelus.
William is no more there than Liam is.
2
u/BluFaerie 5d ago
I mean is Angel Liam's soul with Angelus memories? They're never clear on that.
1
u/jospangel 5d ago
I don't think so, or rather I don't think the personality comes with the soul although memories of being human might be stronger. Liam was a drunk, carousing through all the woman he could find. He had a narcissistic steak and he was a hedonist. I don't see any of those traits in Angel. Had his soul been simply Liam's personality then Angelus would still be doing what he did, as Liam had no empathy and no responsibility or accountability.
1
u/94sHippie 4d ago
It also took Angel almost a hundred years to get to a point of making amends for his evil rather than just trying to survive unnoticed.
1
u/jospangel 3d ago
It took Angel meeting Buffy to even be able to understand the idea of redemption by helping others.
Angel is precisely 4 years ahead of Spike if we assume his desire to help came from his appearance of Angelus. Before that he was everything they say about Spike - doing good only to impress Buffy/
78
u/nocuzzlikeyea13 Here for the insane troll logic 6d ago
My issue with much of s6 is how the follow-up was fumbled in S7.
We never center the harm Spike did to Buffy nor her recovery from the assault. Instead it's all about Spike character development.
The main character is erased. We get one scène when she recoils, and that's it. That's not acceptable.
49
u/NationalCamp2740 6d ago
Suuuuuper valid. Season 7 really lacked the focus and emotional depth of season 6 and I do think it undermines a lot of what was set up.
2
u/jaylicknoworries 4d ago
I somewhat agree except soon after Spike's back in the picture it's clear to her and the gang that they're 'at war' against ultimate first evil itself so she represses any PTSD she had from Spike the previous year for the sake of being the leader she has to be. It's not the first time she has to do that.
She pretty much says as much to Robin after he tries to kill Spike, they don't have time for vendettas, they have to be strong and focused whether they like it or not.
2
u/NationalCamp2740 4d ago
True! I think I just wish it was lower stakes so that there was more room for exploring the fallout. The trio were seen as such a non threat for so much of season 6 that the gang could be messier without ultimate evil breathing down their neck.
9
8
u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! 6d ago
Right? Ugh the way the writers basically have spike kidnapping the entire show when in 5 seasons it was always buffy first, and the side characters were SIDE characters, just changes the whole dynamic completely.
9
u/nocuzzlikeyea13 Here for the insane troll logic 6d ago
I mean, for me, I do love the side characters. I just think the show bit off more than it could chew. If they didn't know how to handle their main character experiencing SA, then DON'T write it.
-1
u/beeemkcl 6d ago
Buffy in "Villains" (B 6.20) literally takes the first credible opportunity possible to her to ensure Spike knows that she still wants him in her life and still trusts him. And we see how hurt and disappointed she is that Spike left town. And she asks when he'd come back.
Spike multiple times tried to k*ll Buffy.
And the show had the aftermath of the AR last far longer than the aftermath of Angel's BtVS S2 actions. Buffy in "I Was Made to Love You" (B 2.19) already wants to be back with Angel. Buffy in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) tells Angel she loves him and kisses him.
Buffy/Spike don't kiss on-screen again until a Buffy daydream in Season 8. And don't actually kiss on-screen until Season 10.
-8
u/BlueisGreen2Some 6d ago
Why would she be scarred? She was in no danger. Spike didn’t have a soul at the time and she understood that. She fights her life nightly. This incident is a blip on the radar. She goes on to love the man.
It makes sense Buffy wouldn’t have much to recover from on this. She’s already recovered from much bigger traumas. It makes complete sense she’d shrug it off.
13
u/NationalCamp2740 6d ago
Unfortunately sexual trauma really doesn't work like this. Violation of trust and bodily autonomy from someone you love us entirely different from fighting some random monster in a graveyard. The Body Keeps the Score is a great resource if you want to learn more about the effects of sa.
-2
u/jospangel 5d ago
Like having your lover go evil and attack people you love? Torture your father figure, and murder friends, and strangers, even small children.
Buffy has dealt with betrayal far deeper than the SA.
As a survivor myself, the idea that Buffy can't easily recover from this while she has gone through so much hell and recovered is the most negative message I can get. It tells me that what happened to me is so hard to recover from she barely can and I never will.
6
u/nocuzzlikeyea13 Here for the insane troll logic 5d ago
I mean, for me, it's not that it should be the worst thing that ever happened or that she can't recover. It's that it was not adequately addressed.
If it wasn't a big deal, then it's not a big deal for either of them. If Spike doesn't feel he did her grave harm, then he should also bounce back quickly, right?
But that's not the story they told. Spike was deeply damaged because he betrayed her trust and harmed her, someone he really loves. If that harm is important enough for it to catalyze huge character growth for spike, it also should be important enough that we're not GUESSING at how it affected Buffy, the main character decades after the show.
We have very little insight into what she's feeling or thinking. We know she has one trauma flashback, but it's immediately dropped. It's not right to do this to the main character. I'm not saying Buffy should be totally destroyed over this, but she should get as much (if not more) screen time as Spike with her dealing with the aftermath in whatever way feels authentic to her character.
0
u/jospangel 5d ago
I thought it was beautifully expressed by Buffy learning Spike got his soul, let him return to the basement of crazy because not her circus and not her monkey. Buffy forgives and rescues. After Angel came back with his soul there was no question of leaving him to deal with everything alone in a dark basement.
As far as I am concerned that is the strongest rejection there is from Buffy. Just not caring. Not rescuing. It wasn't until she saw what rejection did to Anya that she got Spike out of the basement, and even then he wasn't brought into her house.
You seem to want scenes that feed into a drama, scenes of Buffy feeling really disturbed and upset, or a story that focuses on her angst. That makes her weak, and Buffy wouldn't be weakened in that way.
Strong Buffy removes you from her circle and tosses you out in the cold, and that's what she does to Spike for 4 more weeks.
3
u/nocuzzlikeyea13 Here for the insane troll logic 5d ago
But do you see how everything you say is all about Spike?
1
u/jospangel 4d ago
It's all about how to portray Buffy's best reaction. How does that make it all about Spike?
2
u/nocuzzlikeyea13 Here for the insane troll logic 4d ago
Buffy's recover from SA is more than just her "reaction" to Spike's "actions." Let me highlight your actual comment:
"I thought it was beautifully expressed by Buffy learning Spike got his soul, let him return to the basement of crazy because not her circus and not her monkey. Buffy forgives and rescues. After Angel came back with his soul there was no question of leaving him to deal with everything alone in a dark basement.
As far as I am concerned that is the strongest rejection there is from Buffy. Just not caring. Not rescuing. It wasn't until she saw what rejection did to Anya that she got Spike out of the basement, and even then he wasn't brought into her house.
You seem to want scenes that feed into a drama, scenes of Buffy feeling really disturbed and upset, or a story that focuses on her angst. That makes her weak, and Buffy wouldn't be weakened in that way.
Strong Buffy removes you from her circle and tosses you out in the cold, and that's what she does to Spike for 4 more weeks."
You realize that Buffy is the main character, not Spike, right?
I mean I'm a Spuffy gal, I love Spike and Buffy. But I want to have Buffy be an actually 3d character. Usually she is, but in this storyline she simply is not. Everything is filtered through Spike.
0
u/jospangel 4d ago edited 4d ago
That's ridiculous. In this particular situation the question is about Buffy's reactions. Please explain to me how to handle this without reference to Spike. He is what she is reacting to, having him return.
Should Buffy being going through reactions during the last three episodes instead of dealing with Dark Willow mass murder attempt? Or should she be having a horrible time of it in the first episode before she find out he is in the basement?
Do you want Buffy crying and telling someone how horrible it is that after months of recovery time she still is more affected than she was when Faith tried to kill Angel, or when she was stabbed in the gut by a random vamp? That (both the wound and the fear) took her less than 3 month to recover. Hell, stabbing Angel took her as much time to recover. You really want Buffy still dealing and still in pain? That is such an unhealthy message for survivors.
I believe I said this already but as a survivor of rape and profound childhood abuse I don't want to see Buffy brought to her knees by a simple assault that she was able to fight off. Yes, it's a horrific scene but there are plenty of us out there who wish getting away was that simple.
Having Buffy - who recovers from anything fairly quickly (within a few weeks) still recovering means survivors like me are doomed. She is a super hero. If this is what it takes to break her down, if this is one of the hardest things she ever has to deal with in a life filled with far more difficult event, then what hope is there for me?
Edit: I have enjoyed Spuffy, but I am a Spangel fan.
2
u/BlueisGreen2Some 5d ago
Exactly. The idea this is somehow the worst thing that could ever happen to Buffy doesn’t make sense to me. In the context of the show, it was a bad day.
Buffy’s a soldier and if she’s going to have PTSD it’s not going to be from the soulless vampire she was using to feel something. She knows what he’s capable of, and she knows she can defeat him.
I’m not saying she didn’t care at all. She did. She saw something in Spike that Spike also saw in himself and she believed in that part of him and relied on it at times. She wished he could be a true ally but knew he couldn’t without a soul because shit like this could happen. And once he gets a soul she finally invests in him for real. And that has no similarity to falling in love with a real world would be rapist.
Buffy’s survived so much, and she’s not oversimplifying or applying human standards to a soulless vampire. She gets the complexity of the situation.
-2
u/BlueisGreen2Some 5d ago
I think you might be oversimplifying and imparting real world issues into a complicated, unrealistic set up. Spike is a vampire, not a boyfriend or someone she loved. She didn’t expect better. She explicitly didn’t love or ever fully trust him at that point. It’s why we get four episodes of her upset over Parker vs one scene being upset over Spike. Parker was human and he used her terribly and it deeply hurt her. In this case Buffy was using a soulless vampire and it’s not going to be that upsetting or surprising when it goes south.
Buffy’s bodily autonomy is threatened daily. She’s been attacked, her memories were changed, she got an aspect of the demon. It makes zero sense she’d be all that upset by this. Spike wants to be someone Buffy would love and trust fully and that is why it affects him and we follow his story.
There’s a reason it’s a milestone in Spikes journey and not Buffy’s. Buffy’s over it. She tells Xander to get over it when he objects. They are pretty clear on this that it helps move Buffy back towards normal life, but otherwise she’s fine with Spike because she never expected better from someone without a soul.
10
u/seventy912 6d ago
That’s the logic the writers seemed to have as well — she’s so strong she can kick him off and get over it — but that’s just not how humans or TV works. James Marsters put it best when he said that, because Buffy is the character the audience is experiencing the world through, it meant Spike was also assaulting the audience in the scene.
It’s not just about Buffy as a character, maybe she’d view it as a ‘blip’, maybe not, it’s about caring for your audience and allowing them to recover with her. Not because they’re traumatised by it but because that’s how you tell a satisfying story about assault and trauma in a show like this.
1
u/BlueisGreen2Some 5d ago
That’s fair in general but I think this was such a poorly done storyline they were better moving away from it quickly and letting it die.
There were no lessons to be learned or anything for Buffy to really overcome that was more significant than what she was already dealing with in learning to live again.
29
11
u/Chheff 6d ago
Completely agree with everything you said and on top of that I would like to add that contrary to popular belief, it was absolutely in no way out of character for Spike.
He was a soulless vampire at the time who didn’t really understand human love anymore and who had an obsession with Buffy… he had been stalking her since S5 and stealing her underwear and building shrines to her for crying out loud!
He couldn’t understand the sudden rejection he was getting and had that desperate need to get “it” back.
Also, remember, Buffy sometimes made him feel like he was that sad lonely loser poet that he was before he was turned, and he wanted to prove that he wasn’t by a display of force.
It was well within character and I don’t think it was just character assassination (though that may have been part of it given how much Joss hated having another vampire be sympathetic and a “good” guy or morally ambiguous character.
7
u/Xyex 5d ago
I'm one of those who thinks the scene was needed and inevitable once the kiss happened, but especially after Smashed happened. Buffy was using Spike and would eventually recover from her depression and stop. And Spike wouldn't understand that, because he has his own twisted view on their relationship.
Doesn't make it an easier to watch. Especially since Buffy is my favorite character in the show. Or, like, ever. I hate a lot of S6 just because of what it does to her.
My only gripe is the show usually uses metaphor for things like this. I can see an argument for not doing that here. Wanting to present it as raw and as real as possible, like Jonathan's suicide attempt in S3. But I think going about it metaphorically would have still conveyed the same intent and emotion, without being as hard to watch or as hard for the actors to perform.
And for the metaphor, I'd have gone with Spike attempting to turn Buffy. He spent the entire season trying to convince her she belonged in the dirt and darkness with him. Seeing him try to make good on that belief would have fit just as well in that moment. And it would have been an apt stand in for attempted rape, especially after the sexualization of feeding we'd seen previously (Angel when Buffy cured his poisoning, and Riley's suck jobs).
3
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 5d ago
I agree with you on this point.
I disagree with you on the metaphor. It wouldn't have had the same effect. Like I pointed out we've had SA metaphor through pretty much the entire show.
From Praying Mantis lady, through the hyenas, over Fish boys, to Faith, the ghosts that possessed Buffy and Riley, Faith sleeping with Riley in Buffy's body, April, Katrina and the Buffybot, Katrina again, then the jacket in 'Him',... I'm sure there were more. In a way even Vamp Willow and Vamp Xander in the wishverse killing Cordelia.
We had Buffy getting bit against her will with the Master and Dracula.
We already had the vampire bite and sex metaphor several times.
Going with a metaphor wouldn't have hit as hard and wouldn't have had the same effect. People would've gone with "Spike is a vampire, trying to vite her is just part of his instinct and nature" it would've been easily forgivable. It wouldn't have been anything people both in the show and outside would've held against him for long.
13
u/Afraid_Fisherman4064 6d ago
My dislike and unease come from this exact point. As someone who experienced sexual violence, it was too realistic, too well portrait to watch. I skipped this episode on every way tbh after the first because it's triggering. I freeze and get flashbacks. So naturally I wish they didn't take that road.
5
u/TavenderGooms 6d ago
I am in the same boat. To me it felt like a betrayal. Up until this point we handled things like this in METAPHOR (that’s kind of the whole point of the show). To jump directly into depicting graphic sexual assault of our strong female lead on screen was the worst kind of whiplash for me. It felt like I got sucker punched.
5
u/Decalcomoonie original member of pink floyd 5d ago
Yeah, I was watching it with my partner at the time, and I was so stunned that they did away with metaphor. I walked away and came back when the scene was over. And then had to talk to my therapist the next day that what had become a comfort show triggered me.
Almost stopped watching the show immediately (season 6 was already difficult to get through to me tbh). Since we were close to finishing the series anyway, we decided to power through, but only after having a like thirty minute talk about it to reach that decision.
Someone else pointed out that mid-assault, it cuts to commercial. Then the way it's treated after, I didn't feel like it was treated with care and respect. It felt like it was for shock value and to give Spike a reason to go for his soul (which I also hated because I thought we were past "soul = good" but that's besides the point). There was no point where I thought that they gave any thought about people who went through this, which considering how they came up with the scene makes sense.
22
u/DarkCalisto 6d ago
Well thought out. I've often had the same thought on several if your points. I'm personally a "would rather they didnt" kind of person but since it happened it could have definitely been done much more poorly than the way it was handled. It did make me question though if it was based on a personal experience of one of the writers though for how deeply uncomfortable it was and how relatable/real it was.
It triggers me personally because it's very similar to something that happened to me so I typically fast forward past the scene but it could have been handled so much worse.
22
u/Desideratae 6d ago
it is based on one of the writer's experiences ya. the story goes the Marti Noxon-led writers room (she was showrunner for seasons 6+7 not Whedon) had a conversation about the worst thing they had ever done, and one of the writers said they once tried to force themselves on their boyfriend who was breaking up with her, how in her mind if she could just have sex with him one last time it would fix everything and it was only after he physically threw her out of the apartment she stopped and realized what she had done.
tracks pretty 1 to 1 with what made it into the show.
10
8
u/NothingAndNow111 6d ago
Oh yes. I'm not convinced the scene was necessary and think it felt shoehorned in, but it was masterfully written, acted, and shot. It was viscerally awful to watch, which means they did it right.
2
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
Agree 100%. It was inarguably well crafted in all aspects. Necessary though? No.
17
u/TVAddict14 6d ago
I disagree about its execution. In fact, how the scene is executed is my biggest issue with it (not that it’s ‘OOC for Spike’ which I completely disagree with).
They cut to a commercial break mid-rape and that is inexcusable to me.
The way network TV episodes are broken down is that divided up into four ‘acts’ with Acts 1, 2 and 3 each ending with a commercial break. A writers job is to end the Act on what basically surmounts to a cliffhanger, with the idea being that whatever the scene finishes on is tantalising enough that audiences will not switch the channel and stick through the commercials to see what happens next. For example, Act 3 of Tough Love ends with Glory appearing besides Tara, Act 2 of Enemies ends with Angel ‘losing his soul’ and kissing Faith etc.
Seeing Red uses Spike’s attempted rape of Buffy as a hook to keep viewers engaged until the commercials end. They end Act 2 mid assault, with Spike hissing, climbing on top of Buffy and tearing at her clothes as she tries to crawl away. Basically, they said “stick around after these messages to see if Spike rapes Buffy!” It was extremely tasteless to cut to commercials mid-assault. Using the attempted rape of your protagonist as a hook/cliffhanger does not treat it with any kind of respect or seriousness.
I also somewhat disagree that he doesn’t get a ‘get out of jail free card.’ He basically does. In Beneath You Xander, Dawn and Buffy are all understandably extremely hostile towards Spike. The moment they learn he has a soul this instantly changes. Buffy immediately softens and 3 episodes later she’s convincing Xander to let him stay with him. As soon as his soul is revealed the narrative shifts and starts treating Spike as the victim. He’s the one who really suffers over the rape. He’s the one the characters have to protect. He’s the one the audience is coerced into feeling sorry for. Angel in S3 is no different, the soul gets him off the hook for S2 as well, but Spike is no different.
8
u/NationalCamp2740 6d ago
Oooo I didn't realize the thing about the commercial break. I agree that's incredibly exploitative and really undoes a lot of the good work. Thank you for bringing that up!
6
u/Furies03 6d ago
They cut to a commercial break mid-rape and that is inexcusable to me.
It's the grossest thing this show has ever done. I feel like if there was any one scene that could tarnish this shows entire legacy, it's this one.
The moment they learn he has a soul this instantly changes.
This also forgets that Buffy has fought human villains who had souls. Warren was the biggest and most recent example for her. The Mayor sold his soul. Maggie Walsh was crazy and created a dangerous creation with a soul. Willow went off the deep end and nearly blew up the Earth with a soul. In LA, we have Lilah, Lindsey and Holland, and also Angel himself being morally compromised at times with a soul.
Spike's soul is magical apparently. Even in season 3, Buffy's feelings in the aftermath of Angelus were respected more than the SA in season 7.
0
u/yeahitsme9 6d ago edited 6d ago
In Beneath You Xander, Dawn and Buffy are all understandably extremely hostile towards Spike.
Considering their last interaction, I would not say "extremely". Dawn basically warns Spike not to SA her again but they all give him a chance.
20
u/Brodes87 6d ago
Spike is absolutely excused by the narrative and the other characters after some very half-hearted dancing around the issue in the first handful of season seven episodes.
The series never properly reckons with Buffy's thoughts on it. The entire thing is framed around Spike and how it effects him and his growth from it. But then, you really could have renamed the show Spike the Vampire Slayer and absolutely nothing changes (maybe some fans are happier) by the time season seven is on the scene.
16
u/SafiraAshai 6d ago edited 6d ago
I'd say it does confuse sex and rape in the sense it paints it as a mistake on Spike's part, and a lot of the audience seems to make that argument as well.
The scene is also "sympathetic" to both Spike and Buffy, which.. might be compelling for some people.
14
u/TVAddict14 6d ago
Yep. How many times even on this sub have fans claimed that the rape wouldn’t have happened “if Buffy and Spike had earlier established a safe word.” As if safe words are designed to stop your ex, who you broke up with weeks ago, from walking into your bathroom uninvited and assaulting you. Or like it would’ve stopped Spike specifically who in this very scene scoffs at the importance Buffy places on trust and explicitly states that trust is “for old marrieds” and real love is “wild and dangerous.”
People treat it like a mistake. Like it was just a misunderstanding and that Spike didn’t know Buffy didn’t mean no, despite the fact he’s simultaneously herald as such an insightful/perceptive character who apparently knows Buffy so well etc etc.
9
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
For me, it's always like I understand what they were going for and why but I disagree with how they went about it. Cinematographically it's well done and as disturbing, shocking, uncomfortable etc as it should be, no question.
But as for why I disagree with it, it's because the reasoning behind the scene was to show and importantly /remind/ the audience that Spike is a monster and is evil, this has been mentioned many times before, particularly the reminding aspect. To me, if they wanted to remind the audience that he is a monster, well, he should have been portrayed as the monster he is; a vampire, but in the scene, he doesn't have his gameface, his vamp face, on, but his human face. Spike had, up until Seeing Red, been portrayed more, let's say, empathetically, with more emotional depth, more human characteristics, which made him appeal to many people in the audience, and being played as well as he was by James, it's no wonder people liked him so much, which in turn made the scene so shocking. I always felt it was somewhat out of character of Spike and what has been shown of him and his personality previously.
Not to mention that Buffy being made weak in that scene bugs me too, especially when she, with no issues at all, confronts the trio (if I recall correctly here) shortly after and there's nothing about her being hurt at all...
(Controversially I would also like to note that BEFORE Seeing Red, there was nothing to show that Spike was a rapist (and they could have done this because they DID DO IT, with Angel/Angelus!); that was only done AFTER, hate and downvote me all you want for this, I don't care, there isn't any evidence of it before Seeing Red).
I'd also like to say this; do I believe that Spike could have been driven to his attempted assault of Buffy due to the abusive nature of their relationship, and the abuse that he also suffered from Buffy? Yeah, I can see that happening; it's just not, to me, how that's portrayed in the show.
Anyways, I just think that they should either have had him in vamp face or have him try to turn her or even try to kill her, rather than what we got...
It's still a well filmed and well acted scene; I just don't agree with it, they should have done it differently but that's just my opinion...
8
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
No, Spike in vamp face would've taken away from the scene. It wasn't "vamp face Spike" that tried to SA Buffy, it was her ex. That is important, that is the most important part. These things happen and it's not someone wearing a mask, it's the person you were with.
Buffy being weakened is just as important it shows "This can happen to anyone" even a woman as strong as Buffy. There are a lot of women (police officers, self-defence instructors, etc) that get SA'ed and feel guilt because "they should've stopped them" so this, showing Buffy, a woman with supernatural strength be the victim is a very powerful message.
Again, Spike trying to kill her in vamp face would've had zero impact on the viewers, it would've been same old, same old. The Master had bit Buffy, Angel had bit Buffy, Dracula had bit Buffy,... having Spike bite Buffy would've had no impact on anyone. Spike spent three Seasons trying to kill her. This was Spike crossing a line, him trying to bite or kill her would've just been Spike giving in to his instincts. That's different. And it wouldn't have had an impact on him either. Vampires bite and kill.
6
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
They would have had to frame the scene differently, but again, the writers have specifically stated that they wanted to remind the audience that Spike was still a monster and was a bad partner for Buffy, and taken the monster into account then he should, in my opinion, been in vamp face. Vampirism has always been a metaphor for sex and sexual assault, so to me, it doesn't detract from the message to have him try to turn her for instance, bring her "into the dark, where she belongs".
And I understand the importance the representation that that scene gives, the awareness it brings, to have someone as strong and capable as Buffy be assaulted and what that means. It can happen to anyone, as tragic and unjust as that is. I just don't agree with the scene. I understand what they were going for, as I've stated, I /get/ it, but the reversal of roles from the origin of the story also sadly changes things and how it's viewed, and in my opinion, the assault itself is out of character for Spike as he's been portrayed as a person. Overall I think I'd prefer the scene just didn't exist, even the way it's filmed is, in a way, uncharacteristic of the show...
In the end, I think you and I just have very differing opinions on this, and I doubt we'll reach common ground and that's okay. I'm just here sharing my point of view.
1
u/jogaforacont 6d ago
The entire point was giving him a motivation to get a soul (conscience) which also brings him closer to humanity (can't be a monster, can't be a man) so it would make sense to have something to empathize his demoniac side.
For the bite it all depends on execution. The Master biting Buffy certainly had weight. Angel's as well, as a sexual metaphor. Spike's could've been more akin to a sexual violation.
Vampires bite and kill.
And rape as well? He raped before.
2
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
Yes, and you don't have to look like a monster to be a monster that was the point.
The Master had impact because it was the first time Buffy got bitten and she died.
Angel had impact because it was his life or hers and she forced him to do it and almost died.
Everyone following after this had no impact.
Spike biting her wouldn't have been motivation enough for him. That would've been like a vegetarian having a piece of meat. You might feel guilty but you're not going to decide to change your life because of it. While it at times is portrayed as sexual, it's also just portrait as food. So no, the impact wouldn't have been the same, not on Buffy, not on Spike and not on the viewers.
Angel at times slipped up and ate people, everyone forgave him. And yeah, he did beat himself up over it, but that's just who he is. And not something Spike would do.
3
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
If Spike had tried to turn Buffy against her will, but was stopped by Buffy I believe that Spike would seek to change after that. Spike is a character who lives and breathes for his love, her horror would be enough...
Also the point wasn't that you don't have to look like a monster to be one, that's already established by having the trio as villains. Again /the point/ by /the writers/ was to /remind/ the audience that Spike was a monster; a vampire. And /that point/ wasn't made, imo. What they established with that scene isn't that Spike, the vampire, is a monster but that Spike the man, is. And that's a huge difference, and in my opinion, doesn't fit with what's previously been shown with his character.
5
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
Spike wouldn't have gotten close enough to her neck to try and turn her. That would've been very unrealistic. His fangs wouldn't have made it near her neck. Neither his mouth. Or stayed there long enough to try and turn her. Plus, how exactly would the viewer have known he wasn't just trying to kill her but wanted to turn her? Either Buffy would've been too close to death to stop him, or the assumption would've just been that he was trying to kill her. But all of this just brings me back to my original point. That scenario would've had zero impact on the viewers, it would've been just another Tuesday. Another vamp trying to bite Buffy. Spike trying to be like Angel again and get his fangs in where Angel's had been. It would've been just another rinse and repeat and that wasn't the type of show Buffy was.
Actually it fits perfectly. He didn't wear his vamp face while he was selling them out to Adam. He didn't wear his vamp face while stalking her. He didn't wear his vamp face while stealing her underwear. He didn't wear his vamp face while chaining her up to make her love him, he didn't wear his vamp face when he ordered a sex robot that looked like her. He didn't wear his vamp face while fucking that sex robot that looked like Buffy. He didn't wear his vamp face while they were beating the shit out of each other. He didn't wear his vamp face while they were sexually abusive towards each other. Hmmm...looks like Spike rarely wore his vamp face while doing messed up shit monsters do.
Not sure how you felt we were given the impression that "Spike the man" wasn't a monster. We must have not watched the same show.
5
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
Whether or not Spike would have gotten close enough would be up to the writers and the directors and I believe that that could have been a possible alternate thing to do, that's all. I'm not gonna sit here and attempt to write the scene out in an attempt to dispute you because that's just nonsensical and pointless.
Overall, we just disagree, and that's fine. I'm certain we watched the same show, our experiences and interpretations are just wholy different, and again, that's fine.
I'm glad that you found the scene to be satisfactory, honestly. I wish I had the same view in some respects but I don't and so here we are.
3
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
Obviously, but it would've been highly unrealistic. The only reason Dracula got near her neck was because of his mindtricks. And yeah, I absolutely disagree that it would've had the same effect or impact.
Yeah, I guess we must really interpret what a monster is differently if you thought Spike hadn't been portrayed as one and needed his vamp face to make people realize he was a monster. But then again, maybe you are right. There are plenty of people who make excuses for his behavior in Season five and don't think those were monsterous, sick and disturbing.
I guess it depends on why you think Spike in vamp face wpuld've been the better choice. Is it because you hate the thought of Spike SAing Buffy? If that's the reason it's probably because you don't want to see him as the monster he was. Is it because the scene was disturbing? That was the point and it was supposed to be. It tried to show SA as real as it could and I think they did an excellent job doing that. The scene rips you apart and goes right under your skin.
The only other time I saw a scripted depiction of SA that felt as real as this one was in "Mysterious Skin" the movie is amazingly done but so damn disturbing that I've only watched it once. It stays with you for a long time. Because it felt so real, because it was so well done. And it did exactly what it was supposed to. It didn't sugar coat it.
But yeah, I guess we just don't agree here.
Anyway it was nice having this discussion with you. I hope you have a great day.
3
u/AliceArsenic 5d ago
With how depressed Buffy was, I wouldn't see it as unrealistic that he'd get close enough to attempt to turn her, but that's just me.
Considering the metaphor of vampirism I don't think it's, I suppose, unreasonable to expect that of a show about vampire, though Buffy always did do its own thing so, I'm probably wrong there.
As for why I dislike the scene, I think we've covered that, have we not? But just to state, and again this is just my opinion of Spike's character, I don't believe that Spike would rape, least of all the woman he loves, it's just that simple, no more, no less. It's probably a deeply unpopular opinion but there it is.
But I accept the scene for what it was, with all the context that there is for it.
It was a nice discussion, yeah, you have a great day too (unless we continue after this in which case, I hope we can continue to be civil despite our disagreements).
2
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 5d ago
Hmm... that's actually a good point, but in tha case i would've needed to happen before Seeing Red, she was starting to pull herself back up by then.
I disagree with you here. We are talking about the guy who was going to find Drusilla and torture her until she loved him again. I'm pretty sure Spike had raped women before and it wouldn't be out of character for him. But that's just my opinion. I mean the way he'd treated Harmony throughout Buffy and Angel was also highly abusive and sure he didn't love her, but still...
Thank you. Yeah, I really like how civil this is, I'm not used to it, usually by now I'd gotten insulted several times... so thank you for keeping it civil. I love discussions like this one that give me the chance to learn more about others opinions and why they see or feel a certain way about something.
→ More replies (0)1
u/jogaforacont 6d ago
But the suggestion isn't about Spike biting her because he's hungry. This is a strawman
not on Buffy
I actually think it wouldn't have made any difference
2
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
Doesn't matter. A vampire, even a "good vampire biting one of the heroes wouldn't have had the same effect. Like I said Angel bit plenty of people with his soul, can you recall them? Are people still talking about those? Did they have any impact on anyone?
Yes, it would've made a difference. No one would be talking about it anymore now.
Are people talking about the Master biting her?
Dracula? Not even the very intense scene with Angel gets the amount of attention that this scene did.
I mean, not even Jenny's death or Buffy killing Angel gets the amount of attention this did. Which proves, the only reason the scene is still being discussed today is because of the impact it had.
I mean Spike killed with a soul in Season 7, no one cares.
Buffy ran Anya through with a sword, no one cares anymore.
That was just another Tuesday, this scene was not.
Just like the Body. It hit hard because it was realistic, honeat and brutal.
1
u/jogaforacont 6d ago
I did think Angel biting the guy in the diner was dark yes. But people don't talk about it because these scenes had pretty different tones and purposes. But I don't really need for everyone to talk about it (a lot of the time negatively) as long as it serves the purpose of Spike getting a soul. Jenny's death does it perfectly so I wouldn't use it for your point.
1
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
I guess if it hadn't been Spike people wouldn't talk about it.
Or if the Faith/Xander SA scene would've been filmed more like the Spike/Buffy SA scene it might have had more of an impact and pointed out the issues of male SA more.
What is your opinion on the Faith/Xander scene? Do you feel she should've just tried to kill him without the SA as well?
How about Katrina? Why aren't people all up in arms about her repeated SA?
There's a huge double standard because people don't like that it was Spike who tried to SA Buffy. Not because of the SA scene.
There were a lot of scenes that were SA, but people don't really care.
Not about Xander's and there were two, not about Katrina's, not about April's or the Buffybot's, not about Riley and Buffy's both who got violated twice during their relationship, Tara's is brought up from time to time but most of the time not because of what was done to her but because of Willow.
So it's not about the scene itself but the way it paints Spike that a lot of people are upset about.
1
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
Some people might argue that it was too realistic, in the way that it was filmed; it's brutal, yes, honest? I suppose. But the way that it's filmed is honestly in stark contrast with the general direction of the show. The Body works because the whole episode is framed around it. For this there is only this scene, in exception. It stands out; that's why it's still being discussed, same with The Body, it again stands out. The Body is not a regular episode of Buffy, it's not a typical episode.
The attempted rape scene sticks out like a sore thumb honestly, or like a nail waiting to be hammered, not necessarily in the subject matter (that's up for debate currently with just this thread), but in the way that it's executed, and that warrants discussion and talking about. It's controversial. Controversial things get discussed and live long lives...
1
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
Both of the Body and the bathroom scene are visceraly in their realistic and relatable portrayal.
If the bathroom scene was too realistic, so was the Body.
Yes, but the issue I have with most of the reddit discussions they are because people are upset Spike was the one trying to force himself on Buffy. And that's the main reason. And why they don't like the scene and pretend it didn't happen.
When it showed the reality of the conclussion a lot of abusive relationships reach. Just like it is more likely someone you teust than a stranger. Even someone you would've never expected to hurt you.
The entire sixth season was too real. And it fit right in with the general direction the show took in that season. From Buffy's depression and self-destructive behavior, to Dawn's stealing, to Willow's addiction and Xander and Anya's dishonesty with each other. And let's not forget the toxic and abusive relationship Buffy and Spike had. Her beating him bloody was the same general direction like him trying to SA her.
1
u/AliceArsenic 6d ago
The problem with the filming of the attempted rape scene vs the entirety of The Body, is that one has a whole 45minutes or whatever dedicated to it, the full length and one doesn't. The way that these two things were filmed might be similar in their realism, but one gives, at least it does to me, whiplash from like a cinematographical viewpoint. And hell, that might be part of the realism of it, the abruptness of it, the violent jarringness of the change in how it's filmed vs regular Buffy stuff, I could see that, but part of it is why I disagree with the scene; they should have dealt with it that way, with the aftermath, the same way they did with The Body but they don't.
I think overall, again, I don't think it was necessary, I think they had other options available, /and/ considering the origin story of it all, I also don't think the same intent was captured, if that makes sense, with the writer's story where they then flipped the genders around. It matters for the original meanings behind the story, and the impact is different, albeit shouldn't/wouldn't necessarily by today's standards.
1
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 5d ago
Okay, this I agree with. I think not enough focus was put on the aftermath and Buffy. They could've and should've made her the focus of the scene and the aftermath not Spike.
But I disagree on "it wasn't necessary". I don't think the impact would've been the same had they gone with another option.
I think that piece of behind the scene information should've never been shared and that writer should've had legal consequences for her actions towards her ex. Who had been victimized again by her sharing the story.
→ More replies (0)
18
u/debujandobirds 6d ago edited 6d ago
(unlike Angel on some level).
I don't know where this idea comes from. The narrative or characters don't excuse Angel more than Spike. I'd in fact argue there is more freedom to resent Angel than Spike, including for Buffy. Xander and Faith try to kill Angel with a soul, and Buffy has to make amends with them.
"Spike's got some sort of "Get Out of Jail Free" card that doesn't apply to the rest of us."
14
u/Ok-Lawfulness-8698 6d ago
Right? I was with OP until that. Apparently it's impossible to talk about Spike on this sub without Angel catching a stray.
Like Angel never uses it as a get out jail free card (even though it's perfectly valid as he had no control over what his body was doing with Angelus in control). He holds himself accountable for Angelus' actions more than anybody, it's why he works so hard to atone for them. Whereas with Spike the only thing he seems to seriously regret once he gets his soul is the AR and takes no accountability for what he did while unsouled (until he gets some much needed development in season 5 of Angel), even when directly confronted with it by Robin.
1
u/debujandobirds 6d ago
I do recall him expressing guilt for people he killed in the beginning of the season but anyway. I think there is a bigger contrast between Angel with and without his soul, which some people might see as less accountable and more as wanting to disassociate from his past.
11
u/Furies03 6d ago
People forget that Angel has an entire series where he deals with the weight of his crimes, and is shown to be far from perfect even with a soul. Because a soul gives you a choice, it doesn't instantly make you good.
By contrast, I feel season 7 blows smoke up Spike's ass more than Angel ever got. Compare how Spike deals with Robin vs how Angel acts towards Giles and (especially) Holtz. If Angel still has to apologize to the man who kidnapped and turned his son against him because it's the right thing to do while Spike still gets to wear the coat he appropriated from the young mother he stalked and murdered, I'd say the latter gets the free pass, not the former.
3
u/brainspacetime 5d ago
I like this analysis a lot. Portrayals of sexual violence was my chosen thesis area when I was in grad school for communication/media studies. Even though I dropped out and never finished my thesis project, it's still something I could talk about forever.
Generally, there's VERY little screentime given to the psychological and emotional effects of sexual violence on the survivor character. Buffy's s6 writing was guilty of that neglect, for sure. (Can't speak on s7 yet, I'm on my first-ever watch and currently taking a break before the final season).
By the way, I love seeing Jessica Jones mentioned in this thread (and anytime it's mentioned in this subreddit!). I'm actually working on a video essay about that character/the differences in how the show approaches the topic versus Jessica's comics.
3
u/Demitasse_Demigirl 5d ago
I agree with everything you said about the filming, the aftermath, the effects. I’m also so glad they called it rape, numerous times. It wasn’t “the fight” or “the incident.” And that’s important.
Short tangent: After a recent rewatch (for me) with my partner (first time watch), he was shocked. He felt sick and couldn’t believe this was happening on Buffy.
I had to remind him that the first time Buffy and Spike had sex was after Spike realized he could hurt Buffy without the chip activating. Their whole sexual relationship was predicated on violence. Buffy would routinely reject Spike, only for him to keep going anyways. They’d fight, they’d hit each other, Buffy beat the ever loving shit out of Spike. Between Spike’s boundary pushing and the sex/violence root of the relationship, it was only ever heading in one direction.
3
u/sacabo11 4d ago
I never fully understood Buffy season 6 when I watched it as a kid, or even as a teen. But now, rewatching it at 30, I finally get it and I’ve never cried this much. Watching Willow destroy herself, Buffy feeling lost, and then just when things start to get better, Tara is killed… it hits so hard.
For all its darkness, there’s still so much hope woven through the season. The people who hate season 6 usually just haven’t lived through that kind of pain….yet.
Season 6 arcs are on another level every character grows. I’m glad Joss chose to take the show in this direction, because it makes perfect sense after Buffy’s death. If they had followed season 5 with a “happy” season, it would have felt tonally jarring.
3
u/at_midknight 4d ago
Anyone who thinks the bathroom scene is a misstep or mistake or character assassination or whatever you want to call it was not paying attention when watching the show
7
u/Furies03 6d ago
The AR scene has never been ooc for Spike, despite what some of the fanbase claims. So I agree on that front.
What makes the scene gratuitous is the intention behind it, the flip flop nature of the creative team behind the intention, and the fallout on our titular character which is never adequately explored. Joss wanted to do the SA scene to shock audiences into realizing Spike was a villain because they loved him too much and he hated it. But...whose fault was it that Spike was framed too sympathetically in the first place? Get control of your writers room, Joss. He then pulled that trigger, then swerved to romanticizing Spike again in season 7 when he got the soul. Which is it?
There is the extremely tasteless commercial break that occurs right in the middle of it.
It traumatized poor James Marsters. Worse, we always talk about how it impacted James, but never SMG, who we know hated filming this season in general.
It fridged Buffy in her own show. It was disproportionate violence done to her character not for her arc, but for the male character who perpetrated it. Her suffering was used to motivate Spike, but we rarely get any insight on how it impacts Buffy. Season 7 spends more time on Spike pointing out how Buffy used him in their affair than they do his abusive actions towards her that culminated in this scene. Even a much more graphic exploitation film like I Spit On Your Grave keeps the emotional focus where it needs to be in the aftermath (with the victim).
There is also something extremely icky about the fact that Joss pulled this scene from Marti Noxon's life where she was in the Spike position, and she had issues because it was "different" when the genders were switched. Uh, only slightly different Marti, but not by much. I can't believe that not only Joss would grab that moment so casually, but Marti would even admit to it in the first place. No wonder SMG hated dealing with them.
8
u/purplemackem 6d ago
Honestly the way SMG’s feelings on the entire storyline are constantly dismissed. We see her opinions regarding S6 dismissed over and over again and people act like she’s objectively wrong. Whereas the instant James has an issue with it suddenly it becomes ‘poor James. They shouldn’t have done it because he hated it so much!’
4
u/Furies03 6d ago
Yeah, James's feelings are valid and should not be minimized (he seemed so much happier on AtS and it came through in his performance), but it's weird how we never hear about SMG. I heard on the Becoming Buffy podcast that she hated filming Dead Things specifically, or at least was the most drained by it, but I don' think she's ever spoken about Seeing Red.
For the revival, some have been skeptical of her comments for aiming for a lighter tone than the final two seasons. It's not as if the first five seasons didn't deal with darker stories. They just weren't so unrelenting. And the writing was better in general.
7
u/negratengoelalma 6d ago
but I don' think she's ever spoken about Seeing Red.
There is an interview with her in this book, which I haven't read, but I've been told here this is where is from: "I remember not being happy about it and not feeling like she would ever let that happen,” recalls Gellar. “She was a superhero. So why…? He’s not stronger than her. So she obviously had to let part of that happen because she wanted to self-punish, which I understand wanting to self-punish, but would that be the choice? That whole season each choice seemed more for shock value to me than authenticity.”
1
3
u/purplemackem 6d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah I hate how people act like SMG wanted nothing bad to happen to the character ever. She was perfectly happy with S5 and the character went through a LOT that season and she goes through the mill pretty much every season other than 4. She’s even said she was happy with S7. She very specifically didn’t like 6 and has gave her reasons for that
3
u/LA_Throwaway_6439 5d ago
I sort of disagree with the realistic fallout piece. It ends up serving as apparent motivation for Spike to get his soul - I find this gross. If at the end of the assault scene, Buffy has dusted him and then had to deal with a bunch of complicated feelings about it, I'd have preferred that. Or something else, but make it about Buffy not Spike.
10
6d ago
[deleted]
24
u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 6d ago
That's not the same as analyzing it as fiction.
1
u/tinypabitch it's a yam sham! 6d ago
I mean, that's a completely different discussion from what op is proposing, but yeah, I agree that art shouldn't come at cost of anyone's sanity
0
u/wadbyjw 6d ago
Perhaps in 2025, an actor has more power when confronted with this type of scene. But in 2002, producers are probably thinking, "we shot you while you were completely nude wearing only a modesty sock, so how is this a bigger deal?"
It was a different time.
1
6d ago
[deleted]
2
u/wadbyjw 6d ago
You're making it sound like he was crying in the corner simply because he was being made to film an SA scene. But that's not what he said.
The stress of the day aggravated a neck injury, so he was physically immobilized and collapsing in between takes. The scene was difficult for him emotionally, obviously, but the physical injury made it more so.
2
u/abadbadman_ 6d ago
I think just leaving it for the imagination was what would have been best. I have no issue with the scene character wise, just how it was clearly affecting James and they still forced him to do it.
2
u/aLinkToTheFast 6d ago
Excellent points. My take is that it traumatized the actors and so shouldn't have been done. People have easily argued it was out of place for even that season.
I used to relate to that season's darkness too. I'd recommend TBag's captivity of negativity scene for more positivity.
2
u/Bob-s_Leviathan 6d ago
“Sexual Violence in the Media” sounds like a thought provoking, if uncomfortable, class. What was the male to female ratio of students, if I may ask?
3
2
u/Circuit-Think 5d ago
I left this comment on another post the other day… it’s applicable here.
As much as I hate the SA. It does show that it can happen to any woman, even the slayer. Plus SAs often come from someone we know. I know it’s awful to watch… but isn’t that the point?! (Remember he did recently stalk Buffy and make a BuffyBot.)
Spike’s character (annoyingly) grew on me way more on a rewatch, as an adult! It’s confusing, but real.
1
u/imbeingsirius 5d ago
Yes! I remember watching it when it was on thinking this is groundbreaking — no other show is doing this (besides the sopranos) — I thought of it as a win for representing what women go through. I had no idea it created such a backlash.
1
u/ichbinsflow 5d ago
Thank you for you post. It is well thought through and you make so many valid points.
- It in no way confuses sex and rape
There are fans who say it is manipulative to show this particular scene is stark white light when many other SAs throughout the show have been depicted as romantic, comic relief or brushed under the carpet. But the answer is the writers and producers got ist right this time. The scene is such a huge difference compared to how Xander's AR was depicted in The Pack, or Faith assaultingand almost killing Xander was depicted in The Zeppo (was it The Zeppo?), not to mention the body swap and its fallout. Worst of all is probably the Trio attempting to gang rape Kathrina. It#s an excellent example of the framing (and the fallout) trivializing the brutality of what is about to happen.
The show is supernatiral but the bathroom scene wasn't about supernatural horrors it was about the horror humans are capable of. That's why it was so important (and a wise choice) to keep Spike in human face during the whole scene.
- It is not gratuitous
I have been discussing and contemplating forever what else the writers could have come up with. I came up with a blank. There is nothing else. Spike believes he will not hurt Buffy. He's wrong. That's part of what has to be proven. If he hurt - for example - Dawn or Willow it would not have proven the same thing. If he had tried turning Buffy it would have been completely against the season 6 arc. He wants her for what she is. Alive. The light. Human.
- There's realistic fallout
That's such an important point. First of all, Buffy is not victimized. She does not become a victim because she fights back. She does not only stop Spike, she defeats him, beats him off, sends him flying into the bathroom wall. I believe that's an important factor when it comes to her dealing with the trauma. She has fought back. And won.
It still affects her and I think the show deals with that as well. Spike's AR is assressed several time by the show for what it is. Xander calls it rape, Dawn calls it rape and Buffy calls it rape. Buffy is suffering from a flashback in season 7 and the issue is - once again - addressed in comic season 10 (or 11?).
In comparison, there is absolutely no fallout from any of the aforementioned sexual assaults. They are more or less treated as funny or irrelevant. Warren doesn't get flayed for the attempted rape of Kathrina. Andrew even becomes a cherished member of the Scoobies and Anya sacrifices her own life to save him.
- On the other side of the equation, Spike isn't excused by the narrative or other characters
Which is why he sacrificing him in the hellmouth is a logical (although sad) conclusion of his arc.
There is just one detail that makes me feel let down by the way the bathroom scene was written and filmed. Spike entering the bathroom is what SA looks like for many, many women. The aggressor is someone we know, someone who has an invitation to our home, someone who we maybe even had sex before. That's what makes this scene so realistic. But then the show switches back to the supernatural. The fact that Buffy is stronger than Spike and can defend herself effectively is not what usually happens.
5
u/laughingintothevoid 6d ago
I really do have to say pushing distressed actors into it behind the scenes destroys the respect assertion, and yes I know it was a dofferent time.
Everything you said here is true except maybe some of your point 4 but ultimately it was more important for production and the people at the top to use sexual violence as a tool for their story and message no matter the collateral damage. In many cases you're comparing it to the collateral damage is a harmful and just incorrect portrayal, but in this case it was them.
And for what? Were Hitchcock movies 'worth' what he did to people (women)? Maybe at a different level but it's that kind of question for me, and breaking down how it was portrayed with talent and care even regarding this topic and the fact that the result portrayed if accurately in a rare way, does nothing for me personally to say oh wow, yeah this was a good one.
For one thing let's be honest, the story that was so important to be told, IMO no one was so concerned about realistic messaging of sexual violence for any activist type reason or wanting to get this right for people, I think they were just consumed artistically with the character arcs they were locked on and following the ride. How they did manage in a way to handle this respectfully and realistically is fascinating, and I respect your take and appreciate you sharing, for real, and I'm not meaning to talk past that you acknowledged there are arguments against portraying sexual violence in media, Im just giving mine I suppose. Me, I would give it back in a heartbeat along with reams of other media built on abusive behavior even if it once did something for me personally.
2
u/Poem_Aromatic 3d ago
I haven’t seen it for years but doesn’t Buffy tell Spike she was using him before this scene? So, it’s harsh but she played with fire. I thought the Spike redemption arc was absurd and boring.
1
1
u/Sighoward 6d ago
It was a daring plot twist and the fact we're still talking about it says it all
8
u/Aggravating-Bug9407 6d ago
It wasn't a plot twist. A plost twist is something that comes out of nowhere, this was foreshadowed since he began stalking Buffy and stealing her underwear in Season 5.
2
1
0
1
u/Say_it_how_it_is_87 4d ago
I can see why you’d find value in how the scene was executed — especially compared to other media that mishandles sexual violence. But for me, the problem isn’t about whether the scene was depicted “responsibly.” It’s that I don’t think it ever needed to be written into Buffy in the first place.
Yes, it’s realistic. Yes, it’s true that intimate partner assault happens, and it’s important that media doesn’t confuse or sexualise rape. But Spike’s attempted assault wasn’t necessary to tell the story the show was already telling. His arc was already full of moral conflict, complicated emotions, and the destructive relationship he had with Buffy. He didn’t need to be dragged into that to justify his eventual quest for a soul. That journey could have been motivated by his love, his identity crisis, and his desperation to be more than a monster — without crossing into something that permanently tarnished his character.
I’ll also admit, I’m not a Spuffy fan. I understand their misery drew them together, and I get why the relationship was written as toxic and self-destructive. But I still don’t think the narrative needed to stoop this low to make the point. As powerful as the acting was, it felt like Joss Whedon forcing shock value for the sake of being “edgy,” which has been his pattern in other places too. And honestly, it’s one of the few moments in the series that still just makes me angry when I rewatch.
Also in the politest way I have to push back gently 😅 on the idea that only people with a self-destructive phase in their 20s can really relate to Season 6. I’ve had mine — pretty brutal ones, and I don’t say that proudly. If I could wipe that slate clean, I’d do it in a heartbeat (gold-tier package included 🙏🏼). And even with that lived experience, I still don’t see that scene as necessary or cathartic. For me, it felt like a writing choice that derailed what could have been one of the greatest redemption arcs on television.
-7
u/shingaladaz 6d ago
If it was going to happen. It should have happened when he got his soul back IMO.
•
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
Hi there,
Your post on r/buffy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community to engage in a good faith discussion related to your post and how it fits into the context of the show.
Remember Rule #9: Scooby Reddiquette and report any rule violations. If the discussion departs from the intended topic and how it fits into the context of the show, please be prepared to continue the conversation where discussion of the topic is more appropriate.
Thank you, r/buffy Mod Team
P.S. If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "Content Warning" flair.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.