r/dankchristianmemes • u/birdnerd1991 • 23h ago
a humble meme When you finally read the 'friendship' between David and Jonathan in 1 Samuel for yourself.
147
u/StoneAgeModernist 22h ago
Ironically, this take is reinforcing toxic gender norms about masculinity that say that if two men show affection for one another, they must be gay.
65
15
u/I_fail_at_memes 9h ago
This has always been my take. I’m very progressive, but it’s a wonderful story about positive friendship between men.
6
u/No-Cryptographer-980 7h ago
That and cultural differences over time.
They used to grab each others wieners to make a covenant
Sorry
*grasp each other by the thigh
-1
u/Gentlethem-Jack-1912 6h ago
I would say though that that's a now thing - this is a story from a culture where close male friendship seems very normal so the extra-closeness does make me quirk my eyebrow a bit.
136
u/Mister_Way 23h ago
People talk about David being gay, but that's 0%. Bi? Maybe. But he's very into women.
47
u/birdnerd1991 23h ago
True, but the general rainbow flag is supposed to represent anyone under the lgbtq banner, so I figured it still fit! Reading 1 Samuel, I'm convinced David was a bit of an adrenaline junkie. He does crazy stunts for the glory, and for people he cares about- like no wonder Saul felt so intimidated haha
10
u/Mister_Way 22h ago
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you'd called him gay, but I do see a lot of that so I just went inb4
55
u/scornfulegotists 22h ago
This narrative always makes me mad. Not because I’m anti lgbtq, but because straight male platonic intimacy is so stigmatized. Women can have platonic intimacy with other women and it’s not seen as sexual. But men aren’t allowed without being assumed they’re gay. The first time my best friend told me he loved me when I was depressed was really uncomfortable for me. Honestly it still kind of does, and it’s because of stuff like this.
-16
u/birdnerd1991 19h ago
There are lots of great examples of platonic intimacy within the Bible (Jesus and his disciples, Paul and Timothy, Ruth and her mother-in-law, etc etc), both through friends and through family.
In 1st Samuel the description for Jonathan and David stands out to me because of how intense it is compared to any other relationships that it is showing in the story. None of David's wives, his men at arms, his brothers and father, even the prophets get this level of time and detail. And David had great relationships with all of them! It's only Jonathan's who seems to be given such intense emotion or description- so my argument would be that the Bible has plenty of positive examples of platonic intimacy, but this one appears like an example of a man loving another man non-platonically.
44
u/FallenButNotForgoten 21h ago
We have this discussion over in r/lotr about Frodo and Sam every week. No. They are not gay. We just dont have a category in our society anymore for physical intimacy between close male friends
83
u/claudiocorona93 23h ago edited 22h ago
I don't know. They were very close friends, yes, but I don't think they were kissing each other constantly. David liked women so much that he obsessed over a woman he saw taking a bath, and he sent her husband to die in a war, just so he could steal his wife. He also stole his promised wife from her husband.
36
16
u/Rosie-Love98 23h ago
Not to mention what's considered gay now may not have been back in ancient Middle East.
6
9
u/poorloko 22h ago
That doesnt mean much. I used to be girl crazy when I was younger. I also enjoy sex with men. Not mutually exclusive.
4
u/claudiocorona93 20h ago
Do you think the Jewish society back then was very tolerant towards same sex relationships?
6
u/NuOfBelthasar 19h ago
I think if you're a couple of young guys experiencing serious romantic connection for the first time, you might be willing to ignore societal expectations.
-16
u/birdnerd1991 23h ago
But they really are kissing in the Bible... It's a kiss in grief, but we're not told it's a platonic peck on the cheek, only that. David wept far more than Jonathan for the impending separation after they had grown so close
50
-6
u/mendenlol 22h ago
It literally says they kissed each other in 1 Samuel 20:41 though.
And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.
4
u/dumbinternetstuff 7h ago
“Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.” -CS Lewis
21
5
u/intertextonics Got the JOB done! 20h ago
Considering every other woman in David’s life were ones he bought, took after their husband died under mysterious circumstances, or outright murdered, Jonathan’s love might have been better because Jonathan actually liked David and wanted to be around him.
4
u/cjandstuff 23h ago
Someone who knows more about this than I do correct me if I’m wrong, but at that time wouldn’t being openly gay have been a death sentence?
3
6
u/mendenlol 23h ago edited 23h ago
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!
they were soulmates and biblical "roommates"
EDIT FOR THE NONBELIEVERS:
2 Samuel 1:26
I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful,
more wonderful than that of women.
7
u/frodiusmaximus 22h ago
Yeah, but also look how David treats Jonathan throughout his life. I think it’s pretty clear that Jonathan liked David a lot more than David liked Jonathan, and that this speech should be read as soaring oratory after J’s death.
5
u/SicEm1845 22h ago
So the question becomes how do we read between the lines? Do we understand their relationship to be more than platonic or do we ascribe waxing poetic to David’s grief?
I’m not saying either is right or wrong, but I am saying that both require logical leaps that aren’t explicit in the text.
2
u/frodiusmaximus 22h ago
Oh sure, absolutely. I just think we get a better sense of things from reading the story holistically rather than pulling a few select quotes out. I think reading it that way, you get a pretty different impression of their relationship.
0
u/mendenlol 22h ago
It all comes down to perspective of the reader. Some will read through the whole story and see the relationship one way, and others will read the same story and see it a different way.
This is ultimately the reason there are so many different sub-sects of Christianity itself.
-1
u/frodiusmaximus 21h ago
Absolutely. I just think isolating that one verse gives an impression that’s quite different than the impression you get reading the whole story. It’s not that you can’t interpret them as legitimately having been lovers, I just think that the story in its entirety complicates the narrative (regardless of which reading you choose).
-2
u/mendenlol 22h ago
David just had abuser mentality, ngl. I don't really think the gender of his lover would have mattered because he'd treat them like shit either way.
10
-1
2
1
1
u/Pidgewiffler 2h ago
The only thing this argument ever tells me is that they've never had a friend like Jonathan.
0
u/AutoModerator 23h ago
Thank you for being a part of the r/DankChristianMemes community. You can join our Discord and listen to our Podcast. You can also make a meme or donation for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-15
u/Randvek 21h ago
Jonathan probably didn’t exist; he’s a parable for the house of Solomon submitting to a usurper. It’s kind of wild how much of the story of David is bs.
1
u/birdnerd1991 21h ago
Ooooh man can you give me some sources/resources? This is the kind of tea I want to bring up in Bible study!!
-2
u/Randvek 21h ago
Here’s a good start: https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/s/6NtRJBRFuI
1
•
u/Broclen The Dank Reverend 🌈✟ 23h ago
r/DankChristianMemes is open and affirming to LGBTQIA+ people.
Someone identifying as LGBTQIA+ does not cause harm to anyone, therefore, there is no reason to judge or disrespect them.
Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes:
Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin, love the sinner" or any other sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
This rule is based off the following teachings from Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7:1-6
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
John 13:34-35
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
John 15:12-13
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Even if we think someone is a sinner, we should treat them kindly. Jesus was kind to those that society deemed to be sinners. He even ate meals with sinners despite being criticized for it. So if you want to be Christlike, you should take someone to dinner before you judge them.
Matthew 9:11-13
When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Full details and resources are available here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dankchristianmemes/comments/13x4x7d/rdankchristianmemes_is_open_and_affirming_to/
TL;DR: r/DankChristianMemes is open and affirming to LGBTQIA+ people. If you must judge others, please do so elsewhere.