I don't think its stereotypes but more simply that little to nothing is known about them. Hearing Bosnia will bring up memories of the genocide for example, but I don't associate that with Slovakia. The last thing I really remember about Slovakia is that it used to be unified with the Czech Republic and that is it. Just no new information about them of significance has really found its way across the ocean.
Slovakia was brought up by the person being replied to. Both Slovakia and Slovenia were the topic of discussion. I referred to Slovakia because of what I remember from it being unified with Czech. Since Slovenia was not, and I cannot readily recall anything regarding the country- (Thinking on it further- I'm not even sure it has negative stereotypes in the US as I'm fairly certain most everyone in the US doesn't even know the country exists) there wasn't a point in mentioning it as part of the example.
I'm more surprised at Italy and Croatia being red than Slovenia being blue. If it went by regions, for sure Northern Italy would be blue, and probably half of Croatia too. In 10 years, Poland is likely to be blue also.
Not even rich, just college educated. Salaries for new engineers in the UK are like one third of what they are in the US. Europe is basically better if you are working class though
US and UK salaries aren't a straight comparison though because we (in the UK) don't have to pay for healthcare or health insurance in the way that the US do. We get lots more holiday as well.
It’s very profession dependent. The starting salary for nurses in US is $70k(£50k) whereas in the UK it’s $40k(£30k). The cost of healthcare isn’t enough to make up that difference.
For most young people it's not a great tradeoff. I haven't needed to go hospital for 20 years and I'd rather make 3 times the money so I'm able to buy a nice house.
Yeah I feel like people see the cost of medical bills and assume employer-sponsored health insurance (which is what most okay paying jobs and higher have) must be insane, but for a family it's more like $5-$8k a year. If you're pulling in $100k a year then it's not like it's taking up all your income
Or college, or daycare, or car insurance, or home insurance or real estate taxes or all the other shit that is exorbitantly more expensive in the US than in Europe, and rising even more every single year. Even signing your kid up to go play soccer is thousands of dollars per year. (Forgive me is one or more don't apply to your specific country.)
Bottom line: higher salaries in the US are a a mirage. Unless you're really rich, you work your ass off to hang on, and you're little more than a pass-through for money going from one predatory corporation to a bunch of others.
It's still better to be well off in the US than the UK. I'm about 8 years into my career, make approx 330k (~200k after taxes), have access to much better health care than I'd get through the NHS, get unlimited PTO (which really means I take roughly 30 days off before federal holidays and sick days are included)... I don't think the UK would win on any metric. Granted cost of living would be lower in the UK, but equivalent-ish jobs I see even in London pay a fraction of what I get paid here.
These are new grad salaries, so they can take the lowest coverage free health insurance and still have nearly zero out of pocket expenses. Just covers an annual physical and two cleanings per year at the dentist.
It's definitely worth the double salary in the US. Work in the US, retire in Europe. That's the optimal route if you're just trying to extract the most personal monetary value out of society.
I mean I don’t pay for health insurance directly. My company pays it and I’m also getting paid like double or triple what id earn in the UK as someone in tech.
Not really because when you get a good paying job they usually offer good insurance where you don’t pay an absurd amount.
Even when you subtract the average insurance cost for an American family which is roughly $6,000 a year. You can look at Seattle vs Manchester where an electrical engineer makes $120k+ in Seattle vs $50k plus in Manchester
Even if you subtract $6k for healthcare again it’s not even close
more that 30% of US americans have a college degree, less than 2% earn 300k or more. even if all the high earners have a college degree it means that less than 6% of college educated people earn what you earn.
(not taking away anything from your other points, just making clear that you are neither middle class nor representative ;) )
That is their point though. If a person has high income then living in the USA is better. If a person has low income then living in a country with more socialistic policies is better.
(It is imho also always difficult to compare because in europe the percentage of employer costs is higher. for example the median cost per hour worked in germany is 43€ which is actually more ($50) than the median cost of $48 in the USA. And yet the median income in the USA is higher - you can see this difference as simple cost the state forces upon companies or as retarding factor for big swings in financing social security. )
Just making $100k is fairly normal in the US, barely above the median income of 78k, and a basic expectation of college grads after a few years of work. It’s more than enough to live better than European middle class counterparts, who will not be able to buy a house at 30yo or afford annual $5000 trips.
If you are making min wage, aka $15k at $7.5 an hour to $30k at the more typical $15 an hour for “min wage” jobs, the US is a horrible place to live.
You can survive on $30k a year in some states but it won’t be a pleasant experience, and any issue (car trouble, hospital stay) will ruin you.
Yes absolutely, there is no doubt that the US is set up in a way which helps the well off at the cost of the rest. Which is the reason why those 20-30% of jobs are far better paid.
Additionally europe promotes social security over opportunity which is another factor why those top incomes are smaller in europe.
My job (civil engineering) would probably pay double in the USA. On the other hand a tradesman will earn about the same. And imho we in europe already underpay essential jobs amd the split is even worse in the US.
Tradesmen earn crazy money in the US as well. Plumber , electricians, general contractors - they all charge like $100+ an hour and earn $70k to over $100k depending on how much of a workaholic they are.
They are not the poor - the poor are retail workers, and fast food workers (servers at full restaurants actually do ok in the US due to tips, $60k+. Ironically they do better than the cooks).
As a software engineer in the UK, I'm in the top 1% of my age group for income and top 2% nationally, I make just over 40% of what one of my friends makes in San Francisco who's got a similar role at a different company.
They're struggling to pay rent, I'm having absolutely no financial issues at all. I know where I'd rather be.
Making direct comparisons between salaries in different countries is a flawed argument from the start.
Salaries for new engineers in the UK are like one third of what they are in the US.
Yes but we're not comparing just absolute salaries, are we?
Europe is better if it suits your purposes, this can be independent of education. We have a lot of US students come over the pond every summer and a lot of them struggle with this question of less pay but more life quality.
I’d rather be in europe, rich or poor. I don’t think any amount of money could make up for the change in lifestyle, but everyone has their own preferences in that regard. It’s grand we live in a world with that diversity.
And where in Europe? As someone that was born in Belfast I can’t imagine anyone preferring to live there over the Bay let alone someone in STEM. Awful jobs market in a decaying city that is propped up solely by the British government.
Sure there are some specific places in the USA that would be preferable to some specific places in Europe. For instance I’d take the Bay Area over an active war zone.
There is however nowhere in the USA that I would pick over my choice of location in Europe, whereas there are countless places in Europe I would pick over anywhere in the USA.
I've made far more money in the US thant he UK and have a far superior quality of life in the US. Glad I left England. To your point England is better if your poor, but being poor sucks in any country.
having also lived in both (currently in the UK/England) England fucking sucks
the other blue countries don't surprise me. just got back from Germany for multiple weeks and in Scandinavia for a few weeks. completely understand those being better
Okay firstly, no one come for me, this is just my personal experience. If you have a different one, that’s okay. No hate intended here, just what I’ve felt/seen
Grew up in the US, moved to Germany at 30. For me, the quality of life difference has been extremely noticeable.
Nowhere is perfect, but to me it’s blatantly obvious how much more general economic and environmental stress people have in the US, and how much it impacts their overall mental and physical health.
I try to explain it to Germans, but they look at the size of paychecks in the US and don’t understand how people can be struggling. In the U.S.:
-Rent is insanely expensive near cities
-public transit is shit and cities are built around cars (meaning cars are essential, which is both expensive and terrible for air quality + health)
-medical and dental care is often nearly unaffordable (even with pricy private insurance)
-Family leave is nearly non existent
-Work-life balance is only a thing on paper for any high paying job (as well as plenty of low paying ones)
-Less workers rights
-Etc etc etc
Edit: to everyone telling me I’m rich and out of touch… I work in kitchens. I like my work, and it’s sustainable for me lifestyle-wise and mentally, but I’m on the lower end of income in both countries. I’m not sure if that makes my experience more or less valid for y’all.
-public transit is shit and cities are built around cars (meaning cars are essential, which is both expensive and terrible for air quality + health)
This one is so frustrating because it can be so much better, but it isn't. Just because of this I can imagine developing countries like Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, Morocco etc. looking more advanced than America. A lot of the countries have build HSR at a lower cost for basic tram lines in America.
-medical and dental care is often nearly unaffordable (even with pricy private insurance)
This depends on the state, though this may be getting worse soon if Trump goes after Obamacare subsidies.
As far as I’m aware unless you manage to get into a rent controlled apartment which can be up to a multi year wait in some places, Germany has higher rent than the US(relative to wages)
This is not true. I googled it and multiple sources state that rent is significantly lower in Germany on average. This was the top result I got from Google for some reason. If anyone disagrees with this, feel free to post your own data. There is of course also a discrepancy in the nominal average wage but it seems to be quite a bit lower than the rent discrepancy. If the data I linked is correct, Americans would have to earn at least ~25% more (mean wages, for median wages it would probably have to be even higher) for your statement to be correct. The data I saw suggests that rent in Germany is on average lower relative to wages.
I was previously in a medium-size city and rent was OK, it wasn't a problem to have it under 30% of my salary.
However, the situation is absolutely insane in Munich. We are slightly above 30% (although in a larger apartment), but this is with two salaries. And I am quite sure the majority of the people earn considerably less. The situation isn't sustainable, even nearby cities are extremely expensive if you want to keep your commute time to less than 1h20 each way.
I believe there was another post here a few months ago that showed Munich was by far the most expensive place in Germany to rent, but then Munich probably also has Germany’s best job market. Must be somewhat like San Francisco or New York in that regard
Funnily enough at least in my field there are better opportunities outside of Munich, but I guess that's mainly due to it being a bit of a niche. But as couple it makes more sense for us to stay here due to the type of position my wife has.
We cannot, but this is what happens when global inflation happens paired with high immigration levels and decades of bad social planning. We'll recover back to our norm (where only Toronto and Vancouver are grossly overpriced) after some time, but housing supply isn't easy to fix.
Haha yeah everyone I’ve met says Munich is nuts! It’s like how Americans talk about New York.
I’m living in Köln rn, definitely going through a boom in pricing that’s making it feel pretty close to US cities … was way way better a decade ago from what I’ve heard.
We never planned to come here, but that's where we found good new positions, so... Our savings schedule took quite a hit. We were supposed to move to NRW too, prices were significantly better.
What rent caps and hyper strict zoning laws can do to a city. Although I’ve heard that Germany is easing up on rent caps for new developments is that true?
I’d be curious if that’s per apartment (studio, 1br apartment etc) or per square meter. Apartments here are definitely smaller. Which is partially an older building / cultural thing, and partially a greedy landlord thing (naturally).
You could be right though, it’s definitely closer than the other elements on my list.
The main thing i've noticed is the avg expat tends to be paid very well usually and are not typically interacting with the working class joe of Germany.
Yes but you pay less for healthcare, transport (unless you’re rural), get more free time and even paid free time mandated by law. You might be paying higher rents relative to wage but you gain so much more.
Overall quality of life is better in Germany but if we are comparing income specifically then the US has a much higher median disposable income(PPP and work hour adjusted)
I'd speculate the average quality of life is better in Germany while the US has higher peaks and lower valleys. An engineer in the US has a better quality of life than an engineer in Germany. A store clerk in Germany would have a better quality of life than a store clerk in the US
Interesting. I only know a study from my home country Sweden. They said if you live in Stockholm (the most expensive town) you get about 10 square meters for a third of your salary (which is the upper limit of an acceptable rent). The cheapest town gave you 520 sqm for a third of your salary.
And as we all know, any minute spent commuting is so dehumanizing that your life is useless. Or something like that.
Anyways.
What are the rental percentages where you are from?
You can't really compare renting in North America to that in most of western Europe in terms of "size". Since we don't face the same geographic limitations most places have fairly large units (exclude the super dense cities like New York, and even then they have large units they're just so expensive). Comparing them at all is challenging for this and an array of other reasons.
Lived in Berlin, NYC, Boston, Buffalo, Stockholm. Even buffalo took more of my income by percentage than Berlin though Berlin was just over a decade ago and buffalo a little bit longer ago.
Even in the absence of formal “rent controls” as Americans know it, rents are way more stable in Germany. It’s completely typical for someone to live in a rental for decades and to be paying a fraction of the current market value. That’s the norm, not something special that you “manage”
And while many places do have a housing crisis, “multi year wait” for a new apartment is absolute nonsense
I was coming to give the perspective of my friends who moved to England and France respectively.
Both of them refuse to come back. They say everything is cheaper, easier, people are nicer, streets are safer. It's a striking thing to hear particularly because my french is better than my friend who moved to France and she still would never return to the US.
I went to New York a few weeks ago for the first time in a long time. I was astonished by how unpleasant and backward it is - even compared to Paris
The easiest way to explain the difference is by the difference in the smell experience. Paris smells like someone has pissed everywhere. New York smells like people have taken a particularly unpleasant shit in key strategic locations
It’s not just the unfriendliness. It’s the “shithole country” of it all. The Subway in New York is one of the worst mass transit systems I have encountered in the developed world. Technology is basically absent unless it’s designed to scam people. The air quality is deadly. There are more homeless people than you can imagine and for some reason they’re almost all black - in the “least racist country in the world”
It’s genuinely like travelling back in time 30 years from London
Just about country is extremely racist to its founding and core. In the USA, we openly talk and debate it, and we have sizeable proportions of multiple ethnicities who participate in society.
Europeans are so uppity about American civil rights, but don't ask them about Romani people or Middle Eastern (largely Arab) refugees.
I want to be clear, Europeans are ghastly racists to quite a significant extent, and that’s particularly true with respect to Muslims and recent arrivals. But I encounter quite a bit of homelessness in London. That homelessness broadly represents the UK’s demographic mix. While I was in New York, not only did I see much more homelessness, but it was so obviously racialised - and this apparently in one of the most progressive parts of the country and its financial capital
And then alongside that all the different signs of decay and unpleasantness, and Jesus Christ man regulate your food. American beef has this spongy consistency that is just horrendous
If I didn’t know I was in the richest country on earth, you could have easily convinced me I was somewhere in the developing world
No one come for me at all either, but I was born and raised in the UK but moved to the US 7 years ago and I feel the opposite. I don't know how people live on the salaries in the UK.
There is no such thing as a generic wage. Economies are complex. As this map shows, adjusting to local prices, people in the UK afford much more than those in the US on every income category.
PPP is tricky, because comparisons only work when people buy comparable things in the first place, and it doesn't show quality of life indicators.
For example, part of the higher "disposable" income in the US may be disposed of for you, by having to drive more (usually, but depending on your travel patterns), by having to pay excess on your health insurance (depending on your health), by having more expensive fresh groceries (depending on what you eat and cook).
Some is effectively overtime pay for longer commutes (on average), more admin on that health insurance and a more complex tax system.
It's easy to see how the effective salary, once you once you account for all these demands on your time and income, vary massively with different situations and lifestyle preferences.
Oh yeah, I'm not agreeing with that argument either.
People at most salaries could feel better or worse off in either the US or the UK, depending on exactly where they are, how they live, what they value, their health, community, and loads of factors.
I'm a europoor currently in the US. The price of stuff is absolutely insane. I paid 7 dollars for a coffee yesterday and then had the bill shoved in my face to add a tip. I can't wait to go home.
As an American, a $7 cup of coffee is insane to me as well. Over double what I believe I'd pay at my local coffee shop. The US is half a continent. Your mileage will vary depending on where you are.
While true, this argument needs to account for relative income levels just as much as the commenters above did. If you move from Europe to the US, chances are you're not aiming to live in a LCOL area because you might as well stay at home and have a better quality of life and work life balance there.
I think that's the bulk of the difference in official statistics between the US and Canada/W Europe. The US has a huge population living in low-COL, low-services areas (mostly across the South). Those people have significantly lower wages than people in the coastal metropoles, but they have dramatically lower COL, which pushes the national averages around in an unintuitive way.
If you want to make a serious comparison, you have to compare like to like: London, Paris, and Vancouver vs. New York, Boston, and San Francisco, for instance. And when you do that, you mostly see both income and COL being proportionally higher in the US.
And the aforementioned point about how stressful life is in the US is pretty inarguable for anyone who's lived & worked anywhere else for an extended period of time.
If I knew where he was I would run the numbers out of curiosity. But a quick Google says that even in cities with HCOL like Chicago and LA a cup of coffee is only like $3 or $4.
Idk where you'd get a $7 cup of coffee without it being something fancy.
Bruh. A medium fresh-brewed coffee at starbucks is $2.10. What are you doing? If the cheapest coffee you can find in a joint is $7 just walk the extra block. Like I know that a tourist isn't going to have local street smarts, but come on dude.
I am in the UK and I perfectly understand how a US pay cheque isn't worth it at all.
This is partly because a very similar thing occurs if you move from literally anywhere in the country, to London. If I lived in London the average wage for my role (which I'm making) increases by about 50%. Small housing (buying and rent on 1-bed flats/houses) goes up by 100% in greater London.
The extra 20K a year would not grant me the additional 150K of spending power I'd need to buy anything in London, and it'd take years to save the difference. As it stands, I can buy a house here tomorrow.
Housing in the US is way more affordable on average compared to Western Europe. Also idk where the meme of Europeans not owning cars comes from when car ownership is only like 5% lower in Europe IIRC
Not trying to be mean but I think it is worth understanding that if you are willing and able to move from the US to the EU you are probably a person with a lot of privilege and you experience is probably not representative of the average citizen of the US/EU
Would love to see data on that.
Also for me it’s definitely a larger quality of life thing in general. Was saying the rent to explain where a large chunk of the “higher paychecks” go.
The apartments here in Europe are definitely smaller, and I wouldn’t be shocked if price per sq meter to income ratios were in the US favor in some areas.
Trying to afford a studio apartment near city on a single income (for those without higher degrees) is pretty hard in the both places tbh, and it’s getting worse both places, however, I think it’s harder in the US still from my experience and the numbers I’ve seen.
I feel like a lot of folks talking about this on here work in a higher income field than me. I work in kitchens
From what I can tell, housing tends to be nominally more expensive in the US compared to Europe, but relative to incomes it is more affordable. This is a good comparison but it seems to only be for houses. IDK if there is something similar for apartments.
I always see posts like this and I’m curious where you were in the US. In my experience:
medical is expensive when you have an emergency but it varies wildly depending on you employer based health insurance.
I’ve never heard anyone call dental unaffordable.
Paternity leave is a rarer but I’ve never heard of an employer that doesn’t have maternity leave.
most people have at least two weeks PTO
work life balance heavily depends on industry. In my industry, people regularly reduce hours per week if they need too.
I think the reason there is so much variety of experience on Reddit is because it depends heavily on:
Where you live: urban, rural, suburban, north, south, etc
What industry you’re in: programmer vs roofer
How good at your job you are.
I live downtown in a large city. My rent is $2000 for a one bedroom and my work life balance is great. I’ve know a few Europeans and a Belgian guy told me the salary difference between our countries and I was shocked. I think if you are a half competent employee in the US, you are much better off.
I like the US and still go back regularly to visit family but I have to say writing “most people have at least 2 weeks PTO” is kinda ridiculous. It’s not mandated by the government so it isn’t guaranteed, and most European countries guarantee at least 4 weeks of PTO by law! US workers are really screwed in this way. Also it tends to be very easy and even be encouraged to take at least one 2 week continuous break per year.
2 weeks of PTO would not fly in europe. In my last job, I had 5 weeks, now I have almost 8. An alotted number of sick days is even more bizarre. If you're sick, you're sick.
The biggest single saving is not having millions of people fighting about who ends up with the bill. All those billing specialists draw paycheques but dont actually help patients at all they just fight each other with paperwork
The fact that you’ve never heard anyone say they can’t afford their dental care speaks volumes about our difference in context/experience. That’s actually hard to believe, if you’re not only surrounded by upper middle class people your whole life.
Two weeks pto, even if you get it, is not the flex you think it is.
Have you ever lived/worked in another developed country for a period of time?
I’m getting the feeling that what sounds reasonable to you would not sound reasonable to workers in European countries.
(That being said, there’s of course other countries that are worse about some aspects, my good friend worked in Japan for many years and said the work culture was toxic af, and I’ve heard that from others also)
I honestly thought he mistyped the two weeks PTO. That’s an utter joke and completely useless. That’s not even enough for a summer holiday, let alone leaving any PTO for the rest of the year, Christmas etc.
The way it was written, as if 2 weeks of PTO was anything to brag about, would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. I bet he has to spend it on sick days too, so really it’s what, 1 week off a year? 2 weeks is not a flex, it would break so many laws in most of Europe. We get 6 weeks where I live and that’s the bare minimum in my eyes. 2 weeks is abysmal and illegal
You see this a lot with Americans. I think it's because they spend their entire lives being told that "America is the greatest", and many of them have minimal to no lived experience in countries and cultures outside of the US. As a result, many of them see no reason to question the idea that whatever is the norm in the US must be better than elsewhere.
This then leads to normalizing beliefs like two weeks of PTO being a generous and sufficient amount, rather than the pathetic pittance it actually is.
I think this post is very indicative of your privilege, unfortunately.
1. Lots of people have little to no health insurance
2. Lots of people find dental care unaffordable, you are likely talking to people middle class and above (which is not the majority of Americans)
3. I declined 2 jobs last year where no Mat leave was offered, and one where it was offered as unpaid only
4. Two weeks PTO is abysmal by both Canadian and European standards
5. Of course
Even saying $2000 for a one bedroom as if that's reasonable is a bit silly when you look at median incomes. Competency is never the problem, the "good" jobs aren't plentiful enough for all the "competent employees" out there. Overall this sounds like the perspective of someone who has had very good luck or immense privilege, and is out of touch with the average American as well as what "good" can look like in other countries.
“At least two weeks PTO”. That’s where you lost me, making it sound like it’s somehow acceptable or good. That’s not even enough for a summer holiday. You need 3 weeks in a row to get properly de-stressed and relax, that’s scientifically proven.
So 3 weeks summer holiday, and then 2-3 weeks more for the rest of the year. We get 6 in my country, which I’d say is acceptable but shouldn’t be any less. Two weeks is an absolutely joke, you can’t do anything with that.
Also, don’t you have to also use that PTO if you’re sick? Absolutely insane. F that.
I’m European and my experience has been the complete opposite. Did you have a proper job while in the US? The quality of life I have in US can never be replicated anywhere in the EU. After 13 years working in the US, my net worth is in the 7 figures. Insurance is not an issue for anyone who is employed. When I was unemployed I was given Medicaid for free. Rent is higher near cities, but so is pay. Family leave laws have changed since you’ve been here, so you’re completely out of line in that regard too. What worker rights do you lack in the US?
My salary in Europe would probably be nearing the poverty line in the US, but I have a comfortable mortgage for a nice flat with garden in the center of a safe city with all kinds of amenities and almost no crime, I work mostly from home, I can go out to restaurants and bars whenever I want, we go in multiple international vacations per year, we have both public and private medical insurance, if want to be closer to nature we can go hang out to my MIL's summer house with a 7 minute train ride that costs less than 1€, my kid goes to a school he loves and wherever extracurriculars he feels like...
I will never have a yatch, plastic surgery or designer clothes, but I have everything I want in life, starting with peace of mind
Anecdotally none of this is true for me living in the US. Maybe I am lucky though and could see how it could be that way for others.
I've been to Europe many many many times and while I like it there I find the lifestyle suffocating sometimes. Examples: I don't like how long it takes to get places using public transit (and being semi-forced to use it). I hate being limited in how much trash I can throw away/recycle. The diversity of consumer products seems far more limited than in the US.
I think in Europe we all understand that more pay doesn't mean a better standard of living. In my job (Data Engineering) salaries are almost double what they are in the UK, but I would much rather have what I have than trade it for the salary. I am far better off where I am.
Every point is correct and being an average earner in Germany and most of Europe is better than being the average earner in the USA. But the top earners, which many of the immigrants are, would rather live in the USA and make the big bucks.
Also there's a huge point for the general diversity of the major American cities. Come from anywhere in the world and odds are there's some ethnic neighborhood with your people, language and food there. Unfortunately food options in the big European cities are just underwhelming in terms of diversity and authenticity.
For a European does this gives an idea where U.S is on this scale. There have been similar charts done with other countries as well, I saw one with Germany a few days ago.
I think they are more aimed to explain the country they compare it to rather than the samples.
Often when I see these comparisons of European countries to the US I think it is a political statement about socialism versus capitalism. I almost never see maps which compare the US against other continents in a similar way.
That's because there is no other comparable continents. Only a few other countries like Japan and Australia. The comparison between U.S and Africa or South America would be pretty boring.
All countries in Europe are also firmly capitalistic, and market economy based, with more or less socialistic traits. Like every country on earth actually, US included.
Dark blue: Countries that are colored dark blue score higher in both Human Development Index and Inequality-Adjusted Human Development Index. This means that in these countries both the average human development and the actual human development are higher than the US.
Light blue: Countries that are colored light blue score lower in average human development but due to high disparity in the US, the actual human development when adjusted for inequality is higher in these countries.
The extremely devastating civil war followed by decades of fascist dictatorship was probably not great for human development metrics 😬
Still Spain is a way better place to live than the USA in my opinion, at least for regular people. And Italy too. So these statistics don’t tell the full story
I don’t think this is particularly controversial. But, comparing US states is probably more interesting and granular given many U.S. states have GDP and/or populations larger than European countries.
Actually, you could do the inverse map as well. American states with HDI above EU average.
The data for US states is available and it’s also available for regions within EU countries (the more populous countries at least) and they too can be larger than many US states.
The UK’s best region, Greater London, scores better than all US states, and its poorest region, Northern Ireland, scores as well as Texas, the 36th best in the US.
Germany’s best region, Hamburg, also scores better than all US states and its poorest region, Saxony-Anhalt, scores as well as Kentucky at 30th.
France’s best region, Ile-de-France, is just ahead of Massachusetts, the number 1 US state, but its poorest region (in European/Metropolitan France) - Picardy and Corsica - would score just ahead of 49th position West Virginia, with most French Overseas Departments scoring lower than 50th ranked Mississippi.
I don't think this is the right comparison. US States are not "regions" they are independently governed political entities much like European countries are separate from the EU.
Ile-de-France and Greater London are more like NYC metro area.
We're not talking about land regions, we're talking about political economies. I think Europeans don't understand the U.S. very well. States are fairly independent from the Federal government in many ways.
Yet they’re not independent like sovereign countries found in Europe, it’s as arbitrary to compare US states to European countries. Personally I think it’s best to compare country to country (like this map) or region to region, but I’m not averse to doing country to region.
Massachusetts and New Hampshire are the joint best performing states scoring 0.956, beaten out by 6 European countries’ average scores. Of all the dark blue countries, the U.K. scores the worst with 0.946, which would beat out Vermont in 8th place amongst US states.
The worst performing EU countries are Romania and Bulgaria both scoring 0.845 which puts them slightly behind America’s lowest scorer, Mississippi with 0.858.
Education curriculum, universities, school funding formulas
Tax codes, economic development, labor regulation, etc.
All of these things change HDI outcome as you can see the spread between US state HDI is similar to the spread between EU country.
Each state with a different population, set of resources, and economic decision making has resulted in different outcomes. That's what matters when it comes to HDI.
Again, this seems like a lack of knowledge of the US political system and understanding of the scale of the US. Comparing a economic system that supports a 5 million people vs 340 million just doesn't make any sense.
The same is true for 1 and 2 in many regions of Europe. Scotland’s curriculum and legal framework are different to those in England and Northern Ireland. Funding for health services varies by region in the U.K. too. The U.K. and France are probably the most centralised countries in Europe too, so regional variance in other countries like Germany would be even more significant.
As for 3, those things only have a tangential effect on HDI which is calculated on 3 measurements only.
Each region within each country also has their own set of strengths and weaknesses.
You say it’s not right to compare a country of 5m to one with 350m, yet you’re advocating for comparing a US States, some with just over half a million people, to a country with a population of 84m.
US states have different powers and competencies to the federal government, but the same is true for regions within countries, many of those regions would have populations higher than many Us states.
I mean my single state (Minnesota) scores higher than any country by a significant margin and if I only took the data from the biggest metro area in the state it'd probably score higher than the Greater London area as well.
I feel like these graphs aren't as representative as people want them to be because you're comparing a country that is over 6x the economy of the largest country in Europe (Germany).
Edit: looking at the numbers further, some countries may be higher because the years were off. The US state data is from 2022 vs 2023 for the European countries. Looks like my state may be below Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, and Denmark, and about even with Germany and Sweden. Still that's about 20 million people better off in the entire world.
Minnisota for 2023 has a score of 9.51 which would put it in joint 10th with Belgium, so your first statement is incorrect.
Greater London isn’t the metro area, it’s just a county and one of the 12 statistical subregions of the U.K. it contains much of the urban area of London but also a lot of the green belt that surrounds it, the metro area goes beyond the borders of Greater London.
The borders of Greater London are just as arbitrary as the borders of Minnisota - so we’re comparing two regions of two different countries. I think it’s fair to compare the score of country A with country B, even if there is a massive difference between them. Same with regions.
Minnisota with a population of 5.8m people scores (9.51) higher than the US average (9.38), and Greater London with a population of 8.9m people scores (9.84) higher than the U.K. average (9.46).
As a side note: especially for Development/Living standards GDP isn't important and it inflates the economic size of HCOL areas, its just output+prices and without the informal economy, which is far larger as a % in europe. The World Bankper_capita#Purchasing_Power_Parity(PPP)):''Given the differences in price levels, the (economic) size of higher income countries is inflated, while the size of lower income countries is depressed in the comparison.''
When adjusting to price levels+informal economy it has a big impact, for example GDP per capita in the Usa is 2.17x higher than in Italy, but adjusted to those factors it's 1.23x higher. Plus, there are factors such as higher financialization of society (Healthcare, Education etc.) in the Usa vs Europe and other aspects.
As a German, I am just categorically upset with the phrase "reflecting actual human development" when referring to a single number. That's just a stupid thing to say.
The data isn’t wrong - it’s just a metric that favors European countries. Europeans are in better health, have better public education, and there’s less inequality in wealth, this is well known. The US is higher than all European countries in PPI besides Norway and Luxembourg though.
In general, this leads breakeven point around the 25th-30th percentile (i.e. a person in the 70th, 60th, 50th, etc. percentile in the US has higher cost of living adjusted income than a person in the 70th, 60th, 50th, etc. percentile in Germany but the people in 20th percentile and below have it worse off in the US.)
It’s really a question of which metrics do you prefer - better financial strength for a majority of your population or better support systems for lowest incomes, better health, and more leave time.
I just want to add that PPP goes into this comparison as well, which is the only reason why the map isn't much more blue than it is already. Also, I think it's worth pausing after this sentence:
Europeans are in better health, have better public education, and there’s less inequality in wealth, this is well known. The US is higher than all European countries in PPI besides Norway and Luxembourg though.
I know there is meaning behind economic metrics, but I find it remarkable how little we seem to question abstract economic metrics when they so obviously diverge from what makes life worth living (health, safety, education, equality,...).
I'd argue that for most people what's worth living for is what's beyond those things. Of course staying alive is the #1 priority but that's fairly easily achievable in any of the countries that are performing better than the US in HDI and the US itself. Having the means to be more comfortable at home or to have the financial flexibility to pursue hobbies is what most people are striving for and by virtue of generally being stronger in PPI in most income percentiles, more people have that ability in the US. Though, that comes at the disadvantage of the lowest income percentiles being worse off.
Staying alive is not the same as feeling safe though. And even if we'd reduce it to something simplistic like that, I just saw another post about a study that finds 700k Americans die an untimely death that wouldn't have happened if they lived in a comparable developed country like Canada, Germany or Japan. The discrepancy seems to grow the younger the demographics are. In other words, the percentage of "avoidable deaths" rises significantly for younger Americans (mostly due to insufficient healthcare coverage, suicide, drug overdoses, crime and others). The number stated for millennials and late Gen Z was somewhere in the 60-70% range.
I think we're a little too flippant in dismissing these tragedies and trying to counter-weigh them with the ability to spend a few more bucks on some hobby. I strongly believe most people, even the vast majority of Americans, would prioritize their own health and the health of their loved ones, safety and the ability to advance in life (even for the lowest socio-economic classes) through education and social security above everything else. In all those metrics, America is slowly sinking to the bottom of comparable high income countries and in some instances it has hit the bottom already (life expectancy, crime rates, drug overdose rates to name a few examples).
I'm still comparatively young (early 30s) but I've said this for half my life now: Where exactly does America want to go in the future?
Yes, you just described again why the US is lower in HDI. My only point was that the metrics within HDI are favored towards European country's strengths, while there are other metrics that favor the US.
Generally, healthy, educated people in the US will be better off than their counterparts in Europe, while unhealthy, not well off (~i.e. 20th percentile income and below) will not be better off. That's not to argue in favor of one system or the other, that's just the way that it is currently.
Generally, healthy, educated people in the US will be better off than their counterparts in Europe
This does not bear out in the data. The opposite is the case from what I have seen. Europeans live longer and healthier no matter which income bracket you want to compare across the Atlantic. Crime rates (or more directly comparable: murder, homicide and violence rates) in the safest areas in America are still much, much higher than the European average. Education is more tricky to compare objectively, but from my personal experience as a tutor I would suggest that your statement doesn't hold in that regard either.
Where did you get this information from in the first place?
You're misunderstanding the prompt. I'm saying that someone who IS healthy and educated in the US is better off than someone who is healthy and educated in Europe, not that rich people in the US are healthier and more educated. For example, obesity alone knocks off 3-14 years of someone's life (average 8.5 years), and the US population has 40% obesity vs. 20% in major European countries. This almost entirely makes up the 2 year discrepancy in life expectancy between the two. Again, that's not an argument that the US is 'better', clearly having double the obesity rate is a problem. My point is essentially that someone who is not obese has around the same life expectancy regardless of whether they live in Europe or the US.
Second, my main point was on incomes. Links are below showing PPI average income. And also the chart comparing percentiles across a select number of countries. W.r.t. crime, yes violent crime, drug overdoses, suicide, car deaths, and more are higher in the US, while heat related deaths are significantly higher in Europe. These are all baked into life expectancy.
I wasn't saying education was better in the US but that someone who is healthy and educated is better off in the US. Though I would argue without doing research that it's highly likely the US higher education system is significantly better than Europe.
What is your experience in education? I lived in Ireland and in Massachusetts and the education and healthcare systems in MA are miles ahead of Ireland outside a few small pockets in the city. MA actually has a higher HDI than the vast majority of Europe as well. I’m genuinely curious what area of education you’d consider better in Europe than in a Northeast suburb. Education funding is far greater in America as well.
Also, Southern and Eastern Europe is still Europe. Not sure why we are excluding huge parts of the continent when discussing Europe. Would be like talking about America but only referring to the Northeast and West Coast.
Massachusetts might not be a very representative region of the country, but even then I find it hard to believe that the standard education level was so much better. I've tutored highschoolers and undergrads from California and Texas (mainly) and in my experience the higher end of the education bracket (talking about students winning state awards in Texas for example) were not on the same level as what you'd expect in a technical/STEM highschool in Austria (my home country) or an equivalent in the region around it. When you compare the average student though, the minimum requirement to get a highschool diploma in large parts of the US is shockingly low - especially in mathematics and the sciences (I'm a physicist). I try not to criticize their bachelor programs too much, because the system simply works very differently from where I got my education. But even there I feel confident in saying the average BSc in maths or physics gets a more in depth education in a country like Austira, Germany, Slovenia, Czechia, etc, than their American counterparts. This is where the top bracket diverges dramatically though. Nothing here can compare with the connections and opportunities an Ivy League or similar school can provide for you. But this is mostly down to reputation and networking. We're not exactly talking about education at this point. Again, I feel comfortable saying that you can get a better grasp on how general relativity works at the technical university of Vienna than listening to the Stanford lectures from Susskind which you can even find online.
I'm also not excluding southern Europe and not even parts of eastern Europe. However, I don't understand why you're saying you're "not sure" why they are often excluded. Do you really need that spelled out? Do you think Vietnam can be fairly compared to Germany? Southern and eastern Europe were held back by fascism and communism until very recently. Ireland itself was held back by its larger neighbour historically as well. Ireland is very unique in how quickly its GDP exploded for various reasons I won't go into right now, but that wasn't a model other countries can simply adopt and emulate. It only works once. Of course every comparison between a country that has been independent for 250 years and without major catastrophe for 150 years needs a caveat when you compare it to, say, Spain which was fascist until the 80s or Poland which only gained its independence in the 90s.
I think if you get into pursuing hobbies you have to take into account other factors that put Europe on top again, like, for instance, Americans working almost twice as many hours on average as Germans, or public services like gyms and sport centers being much more expensive in America than in Europe.
Your estimation is wildly incorrect. According to this source Americans work 1800 hours/year on average vs. 1300/year in Germany. Again this is still really a personal preference as this is built into PPI. Cost of living adjusted Americans make 17% more than Germans on average but work 28% more hours. Germans are paid more on an hourly basis, but an average American would theoretically have more disposable income and less time to use it.
The HDI caps score for income at $75k, claiming based on an outdated and discredited study that happiness doesn’t improve above $75k.
The idea that more professors living in the same region makes life better for me personally than personally earning $150k instead of $75k….is not something I agree with.
Data is actually from 2023, even the actuall report is done in 2025.
Totally normal, we can only get retro data, but maybe worth noting.
Because even though it has "2025" title, it's a snapshot of situation 2 years back.
The other thing that always annoyed me is things like this partially being based on "income".
Years of schooling, life expectancy, things like that, that's apples to apples.
But then we come to the "income". Wtf is income? There are countries where your income can be 1$, but somehow you are also the richest person in the world.
HDI then does adjustment by "income inequality", but here we go again, if the most of one country richest persons have formal income of 1$, we are adjusting for what exactly?
There are countries where you arent allowed to do that "magic", there are countries that do allow that "magic".
If we really want to capture how 98% live, maybe we should cut top and bottom 1%, from stats by wealth, not declared income.
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u/guiserg 4d ago
Always positively surprised by Estonia's development. They seem to have done a really good job overall in the last few decades.