r/europe Slovenia May 14 '25

Data UK Citizens Supports Rejoining the European Union

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

I’d have been happier with something approaching a 2/3 majority, rather than just barely over 50%.

Such a consequential decision shouldn’t have been made by less than 50% of the actual population.

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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom May 14 '25

If you set the bar at over 50% of eligible voters nothing would ever pass.

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

If we did set the bar at 50% eligible voters, Brexit wouldn’t have passed.

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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom May 14 '25

Not just Brexit, nothing.

Voter turnout is mostly around 60%, often less. A 50% of eligible voters bar would only be reached if the voters supported something with over 80%, at least.

Even landslide votes don't go that hard.

Your policy would result in the government making no "consequential decision[s]" ever again.

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u/CigAddict May 14 '25

The government would still make decisions the same. Just that voters would make no “consequential decisions” or whatever.

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

My policy?

The requirement for a supermajority in significant changes to the social or political circumstance isn’t something I’ve just made up on the spot; it is something already in use by western democracies across the world.

As an example, Australia, Canada and India - all Commonwealth nations - use some form of supermajority voting in relation to potential constitutional changes.

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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom May 14 '25

Such a consequential decision shouldn’t have been made by less than 50% of the actual population.

You didnt suggest a supermajority of votes, you talked about counting the "actual population", which I assume to mean the population of eligible voters, because including people who can't vote would be insane.

50% of eligible voters don't even vote half the time, including non-voters in any kind of referendum then needing a supermajority on top of that is a bar that cannot be reached.

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

I think you misunderstand me then - I never suggested counting the entire population.

Reading the comments back, you made the first comment about eligible voters;

If you set the bar at over 50% of eligible voters nothing would ever pass.

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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom May 14 '25

I literally quoted you talking about "50% of the actual population".

What did you mean by that?

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u/HueMannAccnt Earth May 14 '25

I’d have been happier with something approaching a 2/3 majority, rather than just barely over 50%.

"Just barely over 50%"

Barely over 50% was the ballot result. Not sure how you deemed it to be demanding 66%, or just over 50% of the entire nation, should vote on things.

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u/AuroraHalsey United Kingdom May 14 '25

What part of "I’d have been happier with something approaching a 2/3 majority" doesn't mean 66%.

What part of "Such a consequential decision shouldn’t have been made by less than 50% of the actual population." doesn't mean 50% of the entire nation?

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u/DaRealestMVP May 14 '25

Even if brexit was on the losing side of the 50/50 - steps should still have been taken to distance from the EU

People online pretending Brexit is because of 2% extra in the vote count is stupid.

If you have that many people who believe we should split, that should be respected in some way or another - and most people who think of some fantasy timeline where brexit got 49% would go absolutely apeshit if they heard a referendum on their favourite policy was completely ignored because of similar circumstance.

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

That just sounds like you want to tweak the rules to achieve a certain result.
Any change to the rules should apply to a referendum on rejoining. Still want 2/3rds?

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

That just sounds like you want to tweak the rules to achieve a certain result.

I maintain my position that such significant changes to our society or political realities should require a supermajority, as is the case in many other western democracies.

Any change to the rules should apply to a referendum on rejoining. Still want 2/3rds?

Yes - I wouldn’t want to rejoin the European Union unless the public is willing to commit to it wholeheartedly, otherwise there will be another Brexit fiasco a decade or so later.

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

How do you feel about every single treaty since joining the EEC in 1975 was ratified without a referendum in the UK? Each of those treaties caused "significant changes to our society".

Should all new EU treaties require every country to hold a referendum with a 2/3rds majority requirement?

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

I feel the same way about EU legislation as I do our own domestic legislation, at least as far as your question is concerned.

No, of course I don’t think every piece of legislation should require a referendum and 2/3 majority for it to pass and come into law.

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

I didn't say legislation, I said treaty. Single European Act (1986), The Maastrict Treaty (1992), The Lisbon Treaty (2007) etc.. all of which had significant impact on our society. Should we have had referendums on those and should they have had a 2/3rds majority?

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u/JAGERW0LF May 14 '25

A reminder we were promised a referendum on what was the Lisbon Treaty which they shitcanned once they realised it would fail. Then signed the Treaty anyway…..that didn’t end up backfiring at all did it now..?

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

I know. I personally think Brexit was caused by a previous lack of democracy. Had we had referendums on every single treaty since joining the EEC, the EU would likely be totally different to the one we have today and we wouldn't have wanted to leave it.

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

I know what you said - all of those treaties are upheld by legislation.

Should they have been subject to a referendum? Maybe, maybe not, opinions will differ.

It’s worth nothing that our own elected officials agreed to, I suppose, comply with these pieces of legislation; they were not imposed unilaterally by the European Union.

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

I find it hard to understand how you can want a 2/3rds majority referendum to leave the EU but only a 'maybe, maybe not' to create/join it in the first place. Both directions should be equal otherwise you are just favoring the side you prefer.

If the EU were to come out with a whole new treaty tomorrow that significantly changed society, eg.. fiscal union, allowing the EU to issue bonds thus putting members in debt etc.., or perhaps a treaty establishing an EU military, would you want referendums in each member country with a 2/3rds majority requirement?

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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom May 14 '25

Both directions should be equal otherwise you are just favoring the side you prefer.

Frankly, I haven’t put a great deal of thought into it; I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on the matter. The fact is, a referendum to leave the European Union (or, indeed, to join it) is far more significant in my eyes than one which changes certain elements of that union - at least, as far as we have seen historically.

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u/NoAnteater8640 May 14 '25

I think most re-join advocates (myself included) fully want a 2/3rds or similar threshold for any referendum to re-join.

We know how fucked up it feels to have your life and society desecrated, what it means to be a citizen fundamentally changed against our consent, and how difficult it is to accept when its determined by a thin margin.

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u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch May 14 '25

With that way of thinking, you should also be very angry that 'what it means to be a citizen fundamentally changed against our consent' when every single treaty was entered into without a referendum.

The only say that the UK public had was in 1975 when a referendum was held to join the EEC. Since then, we have had 5 treaties without a referendum.

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u/NoAnteater8640 May 14 '25

what it means to be a citizen fundamentally changed against our consent

This was intended as a personal expression of pain. I was an EU citizen my whole life until it was taken away from me, leaving only UK citizenship. It fucking hurts.

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u/HueMannAccnt Earth May 14 '25

That just sounds like you want to tweak the rules to achieve a certain result.

That's what the Brexit crowd/establishment did, as the whole referendum was, get this, advisory; but that was quickly forgotten to appease a small group of wealthy people to the detriment of most.

For huge descicions that are deemed a referendum, a 66% result from voters should need to be achieved. Anything less, it's back to the voting booth to see which view is held more strongly.