r/europe • u/kyoukidotexe Europe • 3d ago

News Russia launches propaganda campaign in Europe “Russia is not my enemy”

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/4028250-russia-launches-propaganda-campaign-in-europe-russia-is-not-my-enemy.html
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u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago edited 2d ago

But it is.

Good, let them waste their money on this.

Edit: I see a lot of replies with people giving examples of russians doing this with success. I am from Denmark, and in my echo chamber, we are fairly united with a broad political coalition that sits heavy on the center. We are not vulnerable to Russia propaganda as much as in countries with powerful right-wing parties. We hate Russia and what they represent with a passion, and I think that is partially why we dont see a lot of influencing campaigns here because they know its a waste. But yes, it would be foolish to underestimate them.

More F16s to Ukraine!

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u/Xibalba_Ogme Brittany (France) 2d ago

The problem is that some people repeat it for free

If you want to use Kremlin's talking points, at least get paid for it

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u/nitrinu Portugal 2d ago

Some are so militant that I'm sure they're getting paid.

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u/AppropriateOwl1370 2d ago

A guy in our city has put up posters in his window with Russian/AFD talking points.

He is a registered voter. Are you?

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u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago

Registered vote riles me up... Why the hell do you have to register to vote?

In Denmark, every legal citizen over the age of 18 automatically receives a ticket in the mail with location and timerange some weeks before an election. You go to the ballots, ID yourself, hand in the tickets, and you get the voting paper.

Everyone can vote, no barriers.

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u/Scarred_Ballsack The Netherlands 2d ago

Saaame. Why would you need to register to vote? The government already knows your citizenship status and place of residence. Why does there need to be another barrier?

Well of course we know why, it's because if less people vote, that makes it easier to corrupt the election system.

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u/SpecsyVanDyke 2d ago

Plenty of heavily democratised countries register to vote. Not everything is a conspiracy

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u/Scarred_Ballsack The Netherlands 2d ago

I register with my municipality to let them know where I live, and every time an election comes up the government automatically sends me the voting papers. Why would I need to specifically register for elections? Seems like an unnecessary extra step.

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u/SpecsyVanDyke 2d ago

In some countries you don't register your address in the same way.

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u/Scarred_Ballsack The Netherlands 2d ago

I'm specifically referring to the ways elections are influenced in the United States. You're correct though, changing your address in the US is a hassle, you need to do separately for many different government agencies. Tbh it's not the registration itself that bothers me, it's that people periodically get purged which makes it unfair. Also the inefficiency of having to change your address across multiple agencies, the government should be more interconnected in that way.

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u/kaltulkas 2d ago

Registering to vote just means letting the gov know where you’ll be depositing your ballot so they know where to send you the information and prepare the sign up document.

I’ve lived in several cities while keeping my residence to my parents home for official papers, what good would it have been to me to be forced to vote 6 hours away from where I was actually stating because they « knew my residence »?

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u/Scarred_Ballsack The Netherlands 2d ago

That's not a problem. There's still an option to vote from someplace other than where you live, by just letting the government know you'll be abroad or mandating someone else to vote in your stead. But in the Netherlands it's not actually allowed to vote in municipal or provincial elections if your primary residence is someplace else, so the point is moot. The default option works fine for like 99% of eligible voters, only the homeless and expats need extended options and those are available.

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u/kaltulkas 2d ago

Here (France) students are still attached to their parents fiscally but mostly don’t live with them. They would be excluded by something automatic. You get registered automatically at 18 and then have to spend 5mn online or return a simple form when you move if you want to vote where you moved. It’s still voter registration but I fail to see how that has anything to do with vote manipulation.

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u/Scarred_Ballsack The Netherlands 2d ago

Yeah I get the confusion. We're talking about the US system, where you're only eligible to vote after registering. And there this process isn't automatic, the default option is simply not having the right to vote. The US government also has a habit of periodically purging the voting registrations of large groups of people and neglecting to tell them about it, until it's already too late for them to reapply before the elections. Those groups of people are often ones that are disadvantaged in society, or minorities, or generally more likely to vote for the democrats. This doesn't mean it's impossible to vote but it systematically makes it harder for people to make their voices heard.

It's really scummy, which is why the default should just be to register everyone at their listed address like it is with us. Since there's really very little reason not to.

1

u/silverionmox Limburg 2d ago

Registering to vote just means letting the gov know where you’ll be depositing your ballot so they know where to send you the information and prepare the sign up document. I’ve lived in several cities while keeping my residence to my parents home for official papers, what good would it have been to me to be forced to vote 6 hours away from where I was actually stating because they « knew my residence »?

So let me get this straight: you give the government an address for official papers where you aren't able to receive them, and then you have to tell them your actual address anyway because you can't receive your ballot where you tell the government to send official papers.

Why not simply give them the correct address right away?

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u/kaltulkas 2d ago

I can get my official papers since it’s my parent’s address. I could also have voted there, but I preferred to save the transportation and declare a different voting location.

This applies to plenty of people ranging front students to seasonal workers. I kept my official residency at my parents place until I bought one to save the hassle of changing it every time I moved.

You can also choose to vote from your secondary house’s location if you have one, or choose to vote where you work if it’s a different location from where you live. There are plenty of reasons really.

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u/silverionmox Limburg 2d ago

I can get my official papers since it’s my parent’s address.

Then you can also get your ballot there, making "register to vote" a moot point.

I could also have voted there, but I preferred to save the transportation and declare a different voting location.

Then you actually can't get your papers there if it's necessary and the whole problem is still caused by you giving the wrong address to send papers to.

This applies to plenty of people ranging front students to seasonal workers. I kept my official residency at my parents place until I bought one to save the hassle of changing it every time I moved.

If you're moving around so much, then clearly the transportation is not a problem.

There are plenty of reasons really.

Which are all easily covered by mail-in or online voting.

1

u/ChaosKeeshond Turkey 2d ago

In the UK at least a large part of it is that there simply is no central register of citizens. It's actually a point of pride in the UK. Ostensibly, you're born free and your registration with various services is always on a needs-must basis.

The government can't send a ballot to every single Brit because... it doesn't know who they are. It knows who most of them are. But not all. And the information is scattered - duplicate records for the same person can exist within the same service for multiple locations etc.

They are talking about introducing ID cards but there are concerns from the public about the government getting increasingly authoritarian.

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u/gabrielmuriens 2d ago edited 2d ago

That is also a shit system.

The UK government, any government, cannot make responsible decisions without good statistics and data. In the past year, the Labour government has repeatedly demonstrated that they don't in fact have an accurate measure of their own country. One of the chief reasons for that is that they simply don't have data of their citizens.

There are ways for a government to store and handle data in a way that does not harm its citizen's rights. But without information, there cannot be effective governance.

2

u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago

That sounds like anarchy. All citizens are registered at birth here and our tech system works really well. Everything can be done digitally

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u/silverionmox Limburg 2d ago

In the UK at least a large part of it is that there simply is no central register of citizens. It's actually a point of pride in the UK. Ostensibly, you're born free and your registration with various services is always on a needs-must basis.

In reality, the government knows where you live. If you think they don't, try not filing your taxes. It's just everyone keeping up appearances, for the price of a lot of extra administration.

They are talking about introducing ID cards but there are concerns from the public about the government getting increasingly authoritarian.

In practice, it just streamlines a lot of administrative (and some other) actions. And it's a safeguard against identity theft - no one here needs to be paranoid about someone getting hold of their old utility bills.

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u/s3bbi 2d ago

Since the guy you replied to is talking about AFD it's the same in Germany. There is no "registered voters" because by definition every german can vote. You are also informed per mail for upcoming votes on local, state and federal level. You can then either vote in your voting places, or vote per mail or vote early in person most of the time in city hall. So no idea why that guy is talking about registered voters.

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u/ver_million Earth 2d ago

It's the same in Germany. No German would say "registered voter". /r/AppropriateOwl1370 for sure isn't from Germany.

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u/AppropriateOwl1370 2d ago

Freundchen. Tritt mal auf die Bremse. Ich habe eine Angelsächsische Redewendungen verwendet. Kein Grund einen auf ??? zu machen.

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u/ver_million Earth 2d ago

Erzähl halt keine Scheiße. Mit Wohnsitz in Deutschland wird man als Wahlberechtiger automatisch ins Wählerverzeichnis eingetragen, genausowie in Dänemark und anderen europäischen Ländern (gibt Ausnahmen wie z.B. Großbritannien).

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u/Sexul_constructivist 2d ago

Their talking points are so blatantly stupid it's crazy some people think they are the "secret truth".

1

u/dhn01 Italy 2d ago

Dunno about you guys, but MANY people in my country fall for their propaganda

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u/ShelfUnit84 1d ago

This is a dilemma,  Need Fascism to protect populations against foreign meddling,  but the local fascists are bought off by those same foreign powers.

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u/BulkyBumblebee Germany 2d ago

Unfortunately I'm not sure if it's actually wasted, seems to work on too many people...

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u/throwawayy992 2d ago

Yep. Russian flags now are pretty much a staple of right wing rallies nowadays

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u/DryCloud9903 2d ago

In Lithuania people "hunt" even the tiny russian flag on their car plates, if they somehow manage to get through. 

The aim of the hunt - reporting to police.

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u/throwawayy992 2d ago

For Germany, it's another story. Our government wants to remove renewable energy in order to gain more dependence on cheap gas, which only Russia can provide. Simultaneously, rhetoric was boosted towards AfD, the russian sponsored pro kremlin party.

Voices to end support for ukraine come from all sides of the aisle now. Refugee support was cut, similar to Poland. Russian money, originally given to ukraine to finance defense efforts, now is held back in the name of deescalation.

Large influence campaigns by russia have convinced both public and politicians to dial down aid.

Germany will elect AfD next, as many voices in CDU demand a switch to AfD as a better coalition partner than SPD. Germany has been conquered already

3

u/DryCloud9903 2d ago

Given that Germany is becoming our key defence partner (the 5000 troops by end of 2027 - thank you 👏), not gonna lie that makes me uneasy...

Are those you mention amongst politicians, still niche voices or those who've got influence over decisions?

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u/throwawayy992 2d ago

No. It basically is the main party.

  • Increasing energy dependence => minister of energy, CDU
  • Decision to end refugee support => chancellor, CDU
  • Destruction of Schengen from within, by closing borders => minister of the interior, CDU
  • voices against ukraine support: Pro dearmament (Die Linke, AfD), resumption of friendly relations with Russia (AfD, parts of Die Linke, SPD and CDU), voices for the recognition of Newrussia (=LPR+DPR; AfD)

German parties by support in the population across germany:

  • CDU (25%, falling)
  • AfD (22%, rising)
  • SPD (14%, falling)
  • Greens (10%, falling)
  • Die Linke (7%, rising)

Support for AfD coalition comes mainly out of East german CDU, but some influential west Germans are proponents as well.

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u/IndubitablyNerdy 2d ago

They also line the pocket of our far right parties that for some reasons, despite being nationalists (or cosplaying at being nationalists at least) are all super friedly to a foreign dictator that is invading an european nation and is threatening us on a daily basis... This also helps.

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u/BulkyBumblebee Germany 2d ago

It makes sense, they want to destabilize us as much as Putin does. I agree that their nationalism is just cosplay in that they don't actually care about what happens to our nations. At this point I think most of them just say anything to get power so that they can fill their own pockets, kinda like what's happening across the Atlantic.

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u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago

Sorry, I live in sheltered Denmark where everyone hates Russia. I've never seen a Russia flag here, or anyone try to support the invaders.

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u/Odd_Entertainer1616 2d ago

In Germany it's very common to hear people defend Russia.

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u/IndubitablyNerdy 2d ago

In Italy as well, although it comes from a very specific side of society usually which I imagine is the the case in germany as well?

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u/_ZakerS_ 2d ago

The russian troll campaigns are some of the most cost effective operations ever made. I personally know many pro-russian people, both from the far right, the far left and sometimes moderates too. They are just a little more vulnerable than I am.

Most of the times, they are antivax or 9/11 conspirationists. Those things are deeply connected. So, I'm sorry if I don't share your optimism.

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u/New_Zebra_3844 Europe 2d ago

It would seem that the EU could create counter-Russian troll campaigns that are equally, if not more effective within the EU, no?

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u/_ZakerS_ 2d ago

But it mostly does not. Democracies, and conglomerates of democracies even more so, have much slower/inefficient decision making regarding such things. This is a major flaw in game theory. Plus, we are talking about something unethical.

Don't you dare to conclude that western democracies are worse choices than hybrid/authoritarian regimes just because of this tough.

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u/New_Zebra_3844 Europe 2d ago

I wouldn't dare. I am just wondering if (and how) the EU could control narratives, so to speak.

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u/_ZakerS_ 2d ago

It won't. EU is weak and divided. Russian influence will ensure it stays pretty much the same.

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u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago

Yeah, that's fair. I dont see any of those idiots here. I broadly generalized that other countries with more diverse political spectrum were as unified and guarded against Russia as Denmark is.

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u/DryCloud9903 2d ago

I don't see them in my circles either, but what's riddled with idiotic coments (and huge bot waves) are the Facebook posts on national news agencies - anything to do with Ukraine or our own laws that could negatively impact russia (like extra national sanctions). It's also often sneaky enough that people falling for it don't seem to realize it's russian propaganda - very few would agree with "let's just be friends with russia", but they do fall for ridiculous conspiracies against say, people who do the most to organize people-led support for Ukraine: "oh he just spent it on this nice house he owns" (since 2008 🤦‍♀️).

(this from Lithuania - would be curious to hear observations from elsewhere)

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u/seriouslees 2d ago

Most of the times, they are antivax or 9/11 conspirationists.

So what are the far left people you know like?

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u/_ZakerS_ 2d ago

The good old communist kind. Doesn't matter Russia is a far right authoritarian regime, they still support Russia and everything that hates western societies enough. Maybe it's because the region I live in was, historically, pretty red. Like most conspirationists, they give that classic anti-state vibe. Sometimes they behave like intellectuals. Sometimes they actually are intellectuals.

1

u/seriouslees 2d ago

they still support Russia

Ahhhhh. Okay. Far right far leftists.

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u/BenXavier 2d ago

TBH they've doing this in Italy for quite some time

My concern Is that's It Is very effective per Eur (ruble) spent: It can Indeed influence distracted people who are not enough aware (or to accustomed) with what's happening in Ukr.

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u/adarkuccio 2d ago

It's not wasted, russia is good with propaganda, stop underestimating them.

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u/Broad-Income-9151 2d ago

Just look at what they accomplished in the United States. They took our government over by fooling a large enough % of the populace to install their puppets. Europeans are just as dumb as Americans, just in different ways and they will find ways to exploit it. The psy-ops by Russia are not to be taken lightly.

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u/adarkuccio 2d ago

I agree with you, I just hope Russia falls before doing too much damage to the west

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u/UselessSperg 2d ago

It worked before, why wouldn't it work again? They just ruined it by attacking ukraine, which united Europe. It wasn't even that long ago, surely people should remember?

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u/john_san 2d ago

I remember before 2014 I was wondering why movies kept depicting Russia as evil… then they invaded Crimea…

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u/radikalkarrot 2d ago

Tbf movies depict the US as good so…

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u/john_san 2d ago

That’s true… wonder for how long.

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u/sErgEantaEgis 2d ago

At least for all its flaws the US makes an effort to send shitbags to Fort Leavenworth.

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u/ErebosGR Earth 2d ago

And then Trump pardons them.

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u/molpylelfe 2d ago

Same. I was starting to wonder if the anti-Russian sentiment wasn't a lingering feeling from the Cold War that had overstayed its welcome propped up by American media, and they were getting better... Then Russia invaded Crimea and dispelled all doubt

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u/Mirar Sweden 2d ago

The right wing people are not smart, nor have a memory.

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u/Present-Farmer-404 2d ago

united Europe? Do you mean Hungary and Slovakia?

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u/UselessSperg 2d ago

That isn't an absolute statement, we are much more united than before. There will always be conflict in politics and some might be against it, if it hurts their bottom line.

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u/TheIncredibleHeinz 2d ago

It's really not a good idea to ignore this, it's unfortunately effective in parts of the population. Russian propaganda has mastered the art of exploiting the indifference of the West, we really need to stop brushing it off as if it wasn't a problem, because it is.

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u/nanna_ii 2d ago

Agreed. I am afraid they are sowing in very fertile grounds because there is already dissatisfaction with the current state. I am seeing support for Putin even in a nordic country. It's a minority but it's the same kind of crowd as MAGA, they are anti-immigrant, anti-lgtbq+, anti-science, conspiratorial and black & white thinking. I have no doubt they use these topics to deliver their propaganda.

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u/ItsFisterRoboto 2d ago

Absolutely, this works for them everywhere they try it. From Brexit to the rise of maga, the fingerprints of this manipulation are clear and people keep saying "it doesn't work" when it clearly does and clearly is.

Under every vaguely political video on YouTube, every news article and social media post, there are 100s of comments from fake accounts designed to divide people, make them feel angry and make them believe an alternate reality. It is working.

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u/ErebosGR Earth 2d ago

Good, let them waste their money on this.

Sure, since they're so bad at it...

  • Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social, and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".

  • Ukraine (except Western Ukraine) should be annexed by Russia. Western Ukraine (comprising the regions of Volynia, Galicia, and Transcarpathia), considering its Catholic-majority population, are permitted to form an independent federation of Western Ukraine but should not be under Atlanticist control.

  • The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from the European Union.

  • France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".

Aleksandr Dugin, "The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia" (1997)

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u/notorignalusername 2d ago

I think this is a trap, they want to know who to target...

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u/WalkAffectionate2683 2d ago

Propaganda is effective. It's an issue.

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u/Less_Tacos 2d ago

Waste money? The have basically decimated the US threat against them in under a couple of decades without firing a shot. Russian propaganda and foreign influence is probably the best in the world (Israel a close second). Don't underestimate them or you too could end up with a far right insane government.

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u/HerMajestyTheQueef1 2d ago

It's not a waste - it is working too well on the easily persuadable of which unfortunately seem to be a higher portion of the population than i thought.

Pretty sure most of this flag nonsense in the UK is spurred on by the likes of russian bots and shills.

A significant portion of the Scottish independence movement mysteriously vanished offline when Iran blacked out the internet when bombed by israel. The researchers convinced they were a pysops beforehand were proven right.

the Brexit vote was very close, russian shills turning just 1% of the vote would have changed the outcome and it was found they had an extensive pysops operation in that regard, it's just impossible to determine how much actual effect it has had, but certainly having an effect.

The fact that both the extreme right and extreme left always seem to be sympathetic to russia also is an indication of their disinformation success.

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u/DryCloud9903 2d ago

 the Brexit vote was very close, russian shills turning just 1% of the vote would have changed the outcome and it was found they had an extensive pysops operation in that regard, it's just impossible to determine how much actual effect it has had, but certainly having an effect.

Given that some of Farage's compatriots were found to be funded by russian money, and the evidence found in the 2016 Cambridge Analytica scandal, I'd say the chances are high...

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u/Demigans 2d ago

The problem is that even after your edit: these campaigns have already had their effect. Those F16's you cheer about could have been delivered already if it wasn't for all the propaganda campaigns that Russia already waged.

And it is a cost effective campaign too. A "few" less missiles or other armanents to Ukraine can mean a massive difference. A small ammo depot with a bunch of artillery shells isn't cheap, and while the manpower seems cheap it is a lot more expensive so any way to reduce the amount of stuff Ukraine has to fight back saves Russia hundreds of millions. Against tens of millions of propaganda money, often with campaigns that they get people to donate for to support them. "We are for peace, donate to us, we'll try to make sure the conflict in Ukraine ends quickly and peace returns! How much Ukraine has to sacrifice for that we won't tell you, it's about saving lives right? Ignore what happens to those lives and how many will be killed if Russia takes over".

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u/Mars_target Denmark 2d ago

The f16 delivery is not due to Russian propaganda. It's because we need to replace F16 with something, and the F35s were delayed. However, everything is military, + politics moves so slow. Even though ours is now at lightspeed compared to what it used to be, it's still way too slow

2

u/chillebekk 2d ago

The biggest obstacle to F-16s was, surprisingly, Jake Sullivan and Joe Biden. Europeans had to beg for months before being allowed.

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u/Fit-Height-6956 2d ago

Unfortunately they are not wasting money. It is working.

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u/WhatEvenIsHappenin 2d ago

It worked in the US

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u/nvidiastock 2d ago

This is mildly effective with older people or younger people that get most of their news from social media. Do not discount it, it should be stopped.

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u/Fluffy-Name2130 Kharkiv (Ukraine) 2d ago

In Scandinavia no,in countries like Germany, Poland,Italy,France,Spain and so on , people became more and more pro-russian unfortunately.

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u/Welle26 1d ago

As a German, I need to move to norway!

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u/bbbbjjjv 2d ago

Throughout history Denmark-Norway teamed up with them on dozen ocassions against Sweden when Sweden tried to march to Moscow. Perhaps Europe would be a less hostile continent if you weren’t waging some endless petty wars against us. Food for thought.

0

u/Novinhophobe 2d ago

Huh? Is this supposed to be serious?

0

u/bbbbjjjv 2d ago

I’m being facetious by pointing out the irony through an exaggerated version of historical events. Unfortunately the irony was lost on you.