r/europe • u/AlfredsChild England • 2d ago

News Reform takes shock 15-point lead over Labour as Farage dreams of winning power

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/reform-shock-15-point-lead-labour-farage-power-3887857
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u/Hungover994 2d ago

Electorates have always “felt” when voting. That’s why philosophers like Plato were against traditional democracy in Athens because most just vote with their emotions allowing unqualified idiots and charlatans to rise to power.

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u/trowawayatwork 2d ago

i see vibe voting has been around for millennia

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u/UnPeuDAide 1d ago

The problem is that autocrats or aristocrats also very much rule with their feelings and their own interests

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u/Imperito East Anglia, England 2d ago

Sadly there isn't really a palatable alternative to democracy that we have come up with yet. It's the best of the terrible systems on offer.

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u/TheDesertShark 1d ago

Democracy lives and dies on making sure that everyone is educated enough for it.

We've never had democracy.

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u/Ok-Sun-8754 1d ago

It would hurt for people to read a touch of policy and manifesto - at least some of the actual substance. 

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u/marsilva123 2d ago

Sadly there isn't really a palatable alternative to democracy

Yes, there is.

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u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 1d ago

So the elected officials would be randomly selected by a lottery? I don’t see ”random governance”as superior to democracy

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u/CetateanulBongolez Transylvania 1d ago

Honestly, with politics being attractive mostly to power hungry sociopaths, it makes you wonder if just a bunch of random citizens wouldn't actually do a better job at governance. It makes sense statistically if nothing else.

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u/Imperito East Anglia, England 1d ago

Sortition is a very interesting concept, I have heard of it before (I think I am right in saying Sparta had a variant of it in their government despite being a Duarchy) not sure it would work very well in practice, especially given the modern world is more complex than Ancient Athens.

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u/marsilva123 1d ago

You'd have to have some restriction in place, of course, otherwise you just be selecting the next emperor.

But, with that caveat in mind, I honestly think that sortition wouldn't perform worse than the system we have in place now.

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u/Imperito East Anglia, England 1d ago

I admit I would love to see a trial of it somewhere. But no government is ever going to relinquish the power necessary to make it work, it'll take a full blown revolution to make it even a possibility somewhere.

Heck the British establishment won't even consider changing the voting system.

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u/marsilva123 1d ago

100% agree.

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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago

Yes, there is.

You're reducing democracy to a specific system of election and pretend that your specific system of election is going to solve everything.

In reality, democracy is a cluster of institutions geared towards making sure that policy aligns with the population. The various systems of elections are just tools in the toolbox of democracy.

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u/marsilva123 1d ago

If democracy is the will of the people and the people can only enforce its will on those institutions through elections and protest, then democracy is functionally reducible to those two actions. Everything else is just theater.

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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago

If democracy is the will of the people and the people can only enforce its will on those institutions through elections and protest, then democracy is functionally reducible to those two actions. Everything else is just theater.

The second leg of your syllogism is wrong, therefore the conclusion is wrong. It would be like saying "if the military is the ultimate enforcer of political might, then everything else is just theater."

All the institutions of democracy serve to translate and coordinate that power, and to pick up cues in less hamfisted ways than the occasional election or protest.

Moreover, "the will of the people" doesn't exist in a vacuum. If the will of the people is that it should rain beer and dogs should shit chocolate, that's not possible, no matter how much they "will" it. Even the people have to accept the fundamental constraints of reality on their whims.

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u/marsilva123 1d ago

All the institutions of democracy serve to translate and coordinate that power

Funny how often that "translation" fails the public.

We simply disagree on a fundamental, worldview level.

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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago edited 1d ago

Funny how often that "translation" fails the public.

It doesn't, the public isn't a hive mind and with people disagreeing, it's impossible not to disappoint a part of them. Even individuals often have contradictory wishes (eg. less taxes and more government services). Even if those wishes are not contradictory, there is the international context that can force the issue; and finally, reality has veto rights over what is possible and what is impossible. If the people want that it rains beer and dogs shit chocolate, that's not happening.

We simply disagree on a fundamental, worldview level.

You simply are not able to provide a counterargument, and try to evade that by declaring your opinion an axiom.

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u/KeneticKups 1d ago

That’s far worse

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u/TiredEsq 1d ago

Electorates have always “felt” when voting. That’s why philosophers like Plato were against traditional democracy in Athens because most just vote with their emotions allowing unqualified idiots and charlatans to rise to power.

If the above is the issue you’re attempting to fix, how is your suggestion a viable alternative?

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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago

Electorates have always “felt” when voting. That’s why philosophers like Plato were against traditional democracy in Athens because most just vote with their emotions allowing unqualified idiots and charlatans to rise to power.

This did result in worse policy, and obviously that irks philosophers.

The thing about democracy is, however, that its primary goal isn't to get better policy - it's to make sure the direction of policy aligns with the sentiments of the population, so civil wars are avoided.

This means that it forces the people in power to look back and see whether everyone is coming along. So if we don't like how other people vote we need to engage and convince them somehow.

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u/pataglop 2d ago

Anyone yearning to power should be automatically disqualified

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u/Hungover994 2d ago

Rulers would have to be specially selected against their will which I have thought about before. Pull out the good from the population who just want peace and freedom and force them to serve for the good of all. People can change however so that probably wouldn’t work.

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u/-The_Blazer- Europe 1d ago

Yes but in the modern age this is made far more extreme. Social media, which is algorithmic and deliberately rooted in fast-instinctive responses, has replaced institutional media. These new media are also less regulated and harder to enforce the law on. The world's largest broadcast is Joe Rogan (relevant for an English-speaking audience) who follows an explicitly anti-intellectual line and is quite happily pushed by large hosting companies, who are protected from any legal consequences or concerns by 'safe harbor' provisions.

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u/Candayence United Kingdom 1d ago

Plato was against democracy because democracy killed Socrates.

Democracy killed Socrates because he agitated for oligarchy, and was teacher to multiple members of the Thirty Tyrants - the people who killed 5% of the Athenian population in less than a year. Compared to democracy, which limited itself to merely exiling those who gained too much power.