r/europe • u/Kingsalyer_09 • 2d ago

News BREAKING: India emerges as Ukraine’s top diesel supplier in July, accounting for 15.5% of its imports. (Report) 🇮🇳🇺🇦

https://swarajyamag.com/world/india-emerges-as-ukraines-top-diesel-supplier-in-july-claims-oil-analytics-firm
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u/TokyoBaguette 2d ago

India buys cheap Russian oil then refines it and sells Diesel to Ukraine?

The spirit of Marc Rich lives ...

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u/No-Tomatillo3698 2d ago

They are hypocrites. 

After fighting for their independence from a colonial power, they are now more than happy profiting from a war in which a colonial power wants to deny another country its independence.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 2d ago

Ohh really...did we stuff the diesel into Ukraine's throat ? When Ukraine decided to buy oil from India didn't they know where it was coming from? And you think US doesn't know about this. If we are hypocrites then the word hypocrite was made for the west and it's allies.

Trump wanted to stop the war and he has failed. They wanted a scapegoat and they have selected India for their failure. If India stops buying oil the per barrel price goes to 150$ and that would profit the American oil companies. But then Russia will sell its oil at an even cheaper price to China who will sell more cheap stuff in Europe and further dominate the market.

This was the reason why previously there was a mutual understanding that India buys the cheap oil to keep the global and Russian oil prices in check. Only if Europe understood this you leaders wouldn't have to run to white House every weekend.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

I think Europe does understand that - why there's not really been "let's sanction India" chatter among European politicians.

What they are though, is chicken. Or rather held at gunpoint by a madman in the US. Why else would EU (on paper) agree to extortion with the trade "framework"? Because all roads lead to Ukraine right now. And trump is using that to strongarm every politician in Europe to all kinds of hipocricy and bad deals for Europe - just for the promise of sold aid to Ukraine and pinky swear of support for peacekeeping coalition. It's a just cause - but a very shit position to be in

(I'm by no means saying European politicians aren't hypocrites. Just that there's some layers of difference between US and Europe at present, in this case, and "West" as a concept is really distorted and not-unified right now)

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

Let's be honest everyone is a hypocrite in the right way. Everyone is looking for their profit. Donald Trump coming up and shaking things are saying only I am allowed to make profit rest all will have to what's left is not gonna work.

And I totally agree with you that Europe has distanced it from this whole India's war campaign run by Peter Navarro. Europe should stand up and negotiate with Putin. Just like in India we have a clear understanding that a peaceful relationship with China is in the interest of the both countries and the region. Europe should also ensure that they can't let US expand NATO at their wish. I stand strongly against Russia's action of invasion but Europe should have stepped itself up to ensure that Putin doesn't have a reason to start a war.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

 Europe should also ensure that they can't let US expand NATO at their wish

See this is where we disagree and you seem to misunderstand the conflict. US didn't expand NATO - countries who were subjugated and/or annexed by russia went above and beyond for NATO protection. Poland literally blackmailed US to be let in. Every Eastern European country knew already then, that what's happened in Georgia,Ukraine could've happened to them.

Your framing removes agency from those countries, and comes from russian propaganda. Also a reminder that in 2014 Ukraine was neutral, and few people there wanted  to be in NATO. Big lot of good it did to prevent russian attack, right?

putin doesn't need any reason coming from European countries. His goal is clear: restoring USSR/tsarist russia borders. And as someone coming from a country who was not long ago subjected by russian brutality, where in every family there's someone who was falsely imprisoned (in jails or mental institutions until being permanently damaged), sent to Siberian gulags (and often died there), or even murdered just for owning land, having a good education or daring to be critical of the regime. what russia does once it conquers land is ethnic cleansing - and it's doing that in occupied Ukraine now too, tactics have not changed. For countries that putin has his eyes on, resistance isn't pushed on by anyone - we're more than aware that another russian occupation could mean extinction.

russia doesn't get to dictate how other countries choose to go forward. And their failure in Ukraine is proof of that.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

I would believe your words more since the conflict belongs to your region. My words were not put in the right spirit. I meant Europe should create military and diplomatic deterrence against Russia without the help of US. The world cannot afford another war in Europe.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

This we can agree on - Europe as a whole should become capable to deter on its own merit & military strength. The changes are happening, but not equally everywhere (North/South divide), and not fast enough (what began in 2022 should've started back in 2014). 

That would not only grant us deterrence from putin or anyone succeeding him in the kremlin, but also more capability politically to have differing stances from US. Especially given what's happening there now.

I appreciate your openness to question your previous statement.  You may be interested in this video regarding that subject, created by a specialist in fighting disinformation: https://youtu.be/7-ni15vB7Nw?si=7HNjJ0nzKpgwufhH

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

Well every conflict has deep history which often gets shadowed and the real origin of the issue is never understood by people living far away. We have experienced this pain when people in the West show little understanding of India's problem with state sponsored terrorism from Pakistan. The only way out is we respect each other's insecurity and have an open mind.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know nearly enough about the conflict(s) between India and Pakistan to truly understand the causes. And in instances like such, I often tend to withhold any opinion beyond "I hope it gets resolved soon with as few casualties as possible, everyone retaining their sovereignty", and not voice opinions or 'taking sides' before putting in at least tens of hours in research. What I mean is that while I'm aware it was separatist attacks that started the recent conflict, that I don't understand the deeper historical past or how much linked to governments the initial spark was.

If there is an English language source you have that you've felt explained it well in a non-biased way, I'd very much appreciate it.

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u/Empty-Pumpkin7618 1d ago

I would say start with Inverse of whatever says NYT on Modi/ Bharat/ India, something like Inverse Cramer

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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 23h ago

As I see it, here in the west, the most common stumbling block to understanding India and Pakistan is that we too often think we can co-operate on intelligence or trade weapons with both. We in fact have to choose, India or Pakistan.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 22h ago

Well it's a very late 1900s (1960-1990) way of thinking when India and Pakistan were equally good as partners. India has changed dramatically in the last 25 years and a lot of countries have changed their stance. Ironically the US was the first to recognize this and we enjoyed a very favourable relationship with them despite their past with Pakistan.

Europe somehow took its own long time to get to this fact and historically preferred to trade with China keeping India at bay. As an India I don't think you need to choose between India and Pakistan. You are free to trade with both and ensure your own interest. However India expects a stronger European voice against state sponsored terrorism and this European voice must be independent from the stance of the US.

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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 22h ago

We can both agree that the choice is relatively obvious. And with a sane foreign policy, most countries would choose to ally themselves with India.

And I am sure you are right that we can trade with both countries, no problem. It is when it comes to intelligence sharing and weapons trade, that it gets counterproductive. Much like, what would happen in the other direction, were India to suddenly start supplying the Russian war effort with weapons and intelligence. We are not that different after all, we both have a strong aversion to being stabbed in the back.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 22h ago

I totally appreciate your concern. However you must see that India has maintained a very neutral opinion about the conflict. The recent US campaign might make it sound like India is with the Russians. But honestly as I have explained before why buying Russian oil was essential for the global oil prices. We have said it equivocally that for peace, Russia and Ukraine/Europe must sit on the table first, which even the US has failed to achieve.

Moreover, for the last 15 years India has kept US and west at the center stage in its foreign policy. We have progressively decoupled from Russia and have invested in a stronger relationship with US. But India has also kept its other doors open for situations that we are seeing today. Both Europe and India know that US can't be trusted so we should invest in our own capabilities and yet find regions of cooperation with others. I guess the only way to build trust is to start with something and grow from there. If we are always skeptical of each other we can never build trust.

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u/Kingsalyer_09 1d ago

Ukrainians had faced so much cruelty from the Russians in history
One question I want to ask you, IF Ukraine want to stop Russia, then why doesn't Ukraine government work on the development of nuclear power weapons? , If Ukraine had nukes, then Russia would never have invaded Ukraine's territory in from first place. I mean Nukes weapons had the power of peace despite your government's belief that they can join NATO and get army help, which is pure illusion nowadays because NATO don't want a direct fight with Putin.

At the end, it's reality, No Country wants direact involved in the Ukraine-Russia.
And everyone is selling weapons and oil, earning profits.
IF Ukraine had Nukes, then this situation would never have happened, and I would blame your government for not working on it.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

Are you aware of the Budapest memorandum?

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-what-is-the-budapest-memorandum-and-why-has-russias-invasion-torn-it-up-178184

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u/Kingsalyer_09 1d ago

Ukraine Give up all Nukes to Russia despite its cruel history on Ukrainians. Also, trusting America is the biggest mistake. Once, American political scientist Henry Kissinger said, "To be an enemy of America is dangerous, to be a friend of America is fatal". Budapest memorandum: One piece of paper will never protect Ukraine’s sovereignty.

What now your government believes that US TRUMP will solve the problem despite a Warm welcome to Putin in Alaska and peace trade in exchange for Ukraine's territory.
I suggest that the Ukraine government still has time to withdraw from the NPT Treaty and develop nuclear power.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

That would be too big of an escalation ladder and will only make Russia more insecure and will go for full invasion before Ukraine can think of making a nuke.

Nukes aren't the answer to all problems. Pakistan thought the same for a long time till recently they had to fight a conventional battle and they realized they have loopholes to fill.

There is a range of deterrence one could create in conventional warfare including cyberware fare. But the most important thing is for Europe to unite and come together. There is a very strong division between the eastern European vs the central European countries.