r/europe • u/Kingsalyer_09 • 2d ago

News BREAKING: India emerges as Ukraine’s top diesel supplier in July, accounting for 15.5% of its imports. (Report) 🇮🇳🇺🇦

https://swarajyamag.com/world/india-emerges-as-ukraines-top-diesel-supplier-in-july-claims-oil-analytics-firm
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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

 Europe should also ensure that they can't let US expand NATO at their wish

See this is where we disagree and you seem to misunderstand the conflict. US didn't expand NATO - countries who were subjugated and/or annexed by russia went above and beyond for NATO protection. Poland literally blackmailed US to be let in. Every Eastern European country knew already then, that what's happened in Georgia,Ukraine could've happened to them.

Your framing removes agency from those countries, and comes from russian propaganda. Also a reminder that in 2014 Ukraine was neutral, and few people there wanted  to be in NATO. Big lot of good it did to prevent russian attack, right?

putin doesn't need any reason coming from European countries. His goal is clear: restoring USSR/tsarist russia borders. And as someone coming from a country who was not long ago subjected by russian brutality, where in every family there's someone who was falsely imprisoned (in jails or mental institutions until being permanently damaged), sent to Siberian gulags (and often died there), or even murdered just for owning land, having a good education or daring to be critical of the regime. what russia does once it conquers land is ethnic cleansing - and it's doing that in occupied Ukraine now too, tactics have not changed. For countries that putin has his eyes on, resistance isn't pushed on by anyone - we're more than aware that another russian occupation could mean extinction.

russia doesn't get to dictate how other countries choose to go forward. And their failure in Ukraine is proof of that.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

I would believe your words more since the conflict belongs to your region. My words were not put in the right spirit. I meant Europe should create military and diplomatic deterrence against Russia without the help of US. The world cannot afford another war in Europe.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

This we can agree on - Europe as a whole should become capable to deter on its own merit & military strength. The changes are happening, but not equally everywhere (North/South divide), and not fast enough (what began in 2022 should've started back in 2014). 

That would not only grant us deterrence from putin or anyone succeeding him in the kremlin, but also more capability politically to have differing stances from US. Especially given what's happening there now.

I appreciate your openness to question your previous statement.  You may be interested in this video regarding that subject, created by a specialist in fighting disinformation: https://youtu.be/7-ni15vB7Nw?si=7HNjJ0nzKpgwufhH

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 1d ago

Well every conflict has deep history which often gets shadowed and the real origin of the issue is never understood by people living far away. We have experienced this pain when people in the West show little understanding of India's problem with state sponsored terrorism from Pakistan. The only way out is we respect each other's insecurity and have an open mind.

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u/DryCloud9903 1d ago

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know nearly enough about the conflict(s) between India and Pakistan to truly understand the causes. And in instances like such, I often tend to withhold any opinion beyond "I hope it gets resolved soon with as few casualties as possible, everyone retaining their sovereignty", and not voice opinions or 'taking sides' before putting in at least tens of hours in research. What I mean is that while I'm aware it was separatist attacks that started the recent conflict, that I don't understand the deeper historical past or how much linked to governments the initial spark was.

If there is an English language source you have that you've felt explained it well in a non-biased way, I'd very much appreciate it.

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u/Empty-Pumpkin7618 1d ago

I would say start with Inverse of whatever says NYT on Modi/ Bharat/ India, something like Inverse Cramer

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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 23h ago

As I see it, here in the west, the most common stumbling block to understanding India and Pakistan is that we too often think we can co-operate on intelligence or trade weapons with both. We in fact have to choose, India or Pakistan.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 22h ago

Well it's a very late 1900s (1960-1990) way of thinking when India and Pakistan were equally good as partners. India has changed dramatically in the last 25 years and a lot of countries have changed their stance. Ironically the US was the first to recognize this and we enjoyed a very favourable relationship with them despite their past with Pakistan.

Europe somehow took its own long time to get to this fact and historically preferred to trade with China keeping India at bay. As an India I don't think you need to choose between India and Pakistan. You are free to trade with both and ensure your own interest. However India expects a stronger European voice against state sponsored terrorism and this European voice must be independent from the stance of the US.

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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 22h ago

We can both agree that the choice is relatively obvious. And with a sane foreign policy, most countries would choose to ally themselves with India.

And I am sure you are right that we can trade with both countries, no problem. It is when it comes to intelligence sharing and weapons trade, that it gets counterproductive. Much like, what would happen in the other direction, were India to suddenly start supplying the Russian war effort with weapons and intelligence. We are not that different after all, we both have a strong aversion to being stabbed in the back.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 22h ago

I totally appreciate your concern. However you must see that India has maintained a very neutral opinion about the conflict. The recent US campaign might make it sound like India is with the Russians. But honestly as I have explained before why buying Russian oil was essential for the global oil prices. We have said it equivocally that for peace, Russia and Ukraine/Europe must sit on the table first, which even the US has failed to achieve.

Moreover, for the last 15 years India has kept US and west at the center stage in its foreign policy. We have progressively decoupled from Russia and have invested in a stronger relationship with US. But India has also kept its other doors open for situations that we are seeing today. Both Europe and India know that US can't be trusted so we should invest in our own capabilities and yet find regions of cooperation with others. I guess the only way to build trust is to start with something and grow from there. If we are always skeptical of each other we can never build trust.

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u/printzonic Northern Jutland, Denmark, EU. 20h ago

Don't get me wrong, I am fine with where India is foreign policy wise on Ukraine. I think the same goes for most Europeans, including the Ukrainians themselves. As to the Indian oil trade, that really is not that important. And cynically, better that India makes the cash being the Russian middle man than china, an actual enabler of the Russian war effort.

You are completely right, we need to strengthen ties. And right now would be the perfect time to deepen corporation. Democratically minded friends are in short supply these days. Powerful democratically minded friends in even shorter supply.

It was nice talking to you. Hope you have a good one.

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u/Centeredrightbhakt05 20h ago

I agree. I wish you the same.