r/europe • u/Misztral Corsica (France) • 1d ago

Isrаеli military targets DW team in West Bаnk

https://corporate.dw.com/en/israeli-military-targets-dw-team-in-west-bank-incident-captured-on-video/a-73809709
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u/tablakapatarei 1d ago

I mean, the Beslan school siege was already after the main phase of the Second Chechen War.

Yet Israel still seems intent on these deportations of Gazans.

The Gazan society is fully backing genocidal Hamas terrorists...

Why try to refocus from the "bad stuff" of the war to the "war effort"?

Because your criticism is full of Hamas propaganda and delegitimizes the entire Israeli war effort. Israel does have a right to fight against Hamas.

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u/unlearned2 1d ago edited 1d ago

It doesn't matter to me, the same chechens who made the smut videos=the ones Russia was trying to destroy in the 1990s=the ones from the Beslan siege, and they were being accused of committing genocide against ethnic Russians by keeping 10s of thousands of them as slaves, and whether or not it was true this wild media story led to 10% of Chechens being killed in the 90s.

All that matters is that there are innocents. I don't know if, having admitted there are many innocents, you still think 100% of Gazan men are fully backing Hamas or something like that (wouldn't be true either). Didn't the Likudnik deputy speaker of the Knesset Nisim Vaturi suggest perpetrating a Srebrenica (=in his words separating the women and children from the men, with the implication of killing all the men) a few months ago - which is why you shouldn't say things like that.

I am reading Times of Israel, Haaretz, the Just Security website, and so on, you shouldn't make assumptions that my opinions come from Hamas. How about not invoking Hamas propaganda so easily and call it Journal of Genocide Research Propaganda, Zeit propaganda, RUSI propaganda, Jacek Leociak Propaganda etc, because it is not just Hamas which shapes public discourse.

I think this discussion has run its course or will do soon, but you should know that you are swimming against the current, it seems futile to me in the long-run. You are not going to be able to destroy a Turkish nuclear program once they have 5th generation stealth technology, and their defense industry is just as valuable as yours already. You can see in the mood of this subreddit that there is demand for nuclear proliferation even in Europe, and that is only going to grow wherever there is conflict because we are transition from a polarized world into one where might=right. Soon everyone and his dog will have a stealth jet, yet Israel has no active 6th gen fighter jet program.

I am not Israeli but have very pro-Israeli evangelical parents, and a finger on Israeli politics. You guys should vote UTJ, Labor, Hadash-Ta'al, Meretz, Yesh Atid, and get yourselves out of this mess.

I don't know if you understand the nature of Israel's current base of support in the United States, but it is corrupt to the core, increasingly Christian-theocratic, and none of us know where the evangelical train is headed especially with Trump (who the more pro-Israel evangelicals deify to an extent). You cannot rely on it in the long-term as Trump is not himself an evangelical Christian, he is just acting - yet has unquestioning fealty from Evangelicals. If his attachment to Israel is not genuine, you cannot rely on the USA.

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u/tablakapatarei 1d ago

And the innocent people have been put in danger by the actions of Hamas, not by the actions of Israel.

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u/unlearned2 1d ago

They problem for Israel is it is in a popularity contest, it is losing the popularity contest, and that kind of blithe, untrue reasoning is not reversing the trend!

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u/tablakapatarei 1d ago

Educated people remain firmly supportive of Israel.

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u/unlearned2 1d ago edited 1d ago

My evangelical parents have no university education and are firmly supportive of Israel.

I think you are too comfortable. See the following:

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/understanding-gazas-starvation-within-israels-campaign

https://www.justsecurity.org/116904/israeli-international-law-scholars-gaza/

https://oko.press/paralizujaca-aura-holokaustu-gaza-wywiad

https://theconversation.com/netanyahu-remains-unmoved-by-israels-lurch-toward-pariah-status-but-at-home-and-abroad-israelis-are-suffering-the-consequences-263154

https://verfassungsblog.de/international-law-in-gaza/

https://verfassungsblog.de/genocide-in-gaza/

(use google translate)

These articles or interviews are all from well-respected institutions, academics, and academic publications which tend to be highly critical of Israel's conduct in Gaza. You are swimming against the current, even if you limit yourself to the opinions of subject-matter experts.

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u/tablakapatarei 1d ago

You are swimming against the current

Better educated and moral people often are. We support Israel, not a literal Islamic terrorist group...

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u/unlearned2 21h ago edited 9h ago

You don't have anything on me regarding support for Hamas. There used to be moral pride in the low civilian:combatant combat ratios of the 1980s, which has mutated into "40 eyes for an eye"/"got to make arabs fear you if you can't make them love you" thereabouts under Netanyahu, just blithe, crass, cheap, nontraditional worthless crap instead of morals. Lapping up this kind of jacked up shit is no better than choosing to drink ethanol if you had the choice of wine instead in my opinion. Judaism does offer an alternative in a long and rich moral tradition, which is still by and large valued in a party like UTJ (which had an unhappy end in the Netanjahu government and left the coalition pretty much in tears). The current government-supporting equivalent party on the other hand, Shas, would self-identify as focused on piety but in reality has accumulated an excruciating ratio of criminal convictions for its MKs over the years.

Are you using "educated" as a shorthand/code word for "religiously educated" or something like that - Likudniks aren't above average in terms of nonreligious university-level education.

Since I have already linked to pieces on Gaza by a few respected experts in relevant areas like international law and history, you can do the same to support your case.