r/europe • u/Dazzling_Lobster3656 • 1d ago

Irish protester ‘repeatedly punched in the face by police’ during Gaza protest in Berlin

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-protester-repeatedly-punched-in-the-face-by-police-during-gaza-protest-in-berlin/a249856773.html
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u/ikarusproject Germany 1d ago

Not just Palestine. Berlin Police is has a tough response to all forms of protest against the government. Democratic Protest? Not when it bothers the politicians in Berlin. How dare you to criticize a democratically elected government? This is part of an increasing authoritarianism since the 90ies.

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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 1d ago

Thank you for the insight. I was losing hope that I would find a voice from germany on here that wasn't just defending the Berlin police in this case.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

I'm not defending them at all. I'm defending Germany as a whole against allegations that it's now a Nazi country all of a sudden.

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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 1d ago edited 1d ago

I think people say that in anger. I've never said it myself. It's very low class to use that word.

But I genuinely think that Germany has gone off the rails in terms of failure to witness what is happening in Gaza. And I think the Berlin authorities are a centre point of a disease of official pro Israel administrative force that isn't linked to German democracy.

And if I've mixed that up with the fact that the Berlin police are just generally thuggish brutes who will punch any protester for any cause (not just pro justice for Palestine ) standing still on the public street, then I have learned something today.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Yes, it really is very low class. And extremely disrespectful to the victims of actual national socialism as well.

What exactly do you expect the government to do about Gaza? There's nothing we can do that would change the situation.

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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 1d ago

I expect Germany to not block collective EU action towards sanctioning Israel for its mass murder of Palestinian civilians and its settling of Palestinian land outside the 67 borders.

Given it's history if Germany simply stepped out of the way, and signalled it will not block this any more, that is all I would expect from it for now.

I agree there is very little we can do for the people in Gaza right now. Sanctions may take decades to have any effect. South Africa took 20 years of work. It has to start though.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Exactly. So there is nothing we can do to change the situation as it is right now.

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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 1d ago

Yes, we agree, I would say the ban on sending weapons to israel is more appropriate to the "now" aspect of changing the situation. That came disgracefully late and very ambiguously in Germany's case. But it came.

Am I correct in thinking you would then use the lack of immediate effect of sanctions on Israel as a justification for Germany blocking EU collective action under Article 2 of the EU / Israel Trade association agreement? If so why?

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

And the ban of weapons changed what exactly? Nothing. Just like France recognizing Palestine changes nothing. Just like the UK threatening to do the same changes nothing.

Why do you think that is? Maybe because Israel doesn't have much of a choice? If they just withdraw from Gaza, we'll have the same situation all over again in a few years. Look at 2008-2009 and 2014. As long as Hamas exists, we'll have the same situation every few years. Israel will not just withdraw again. Not even if they had a different government.

And that is exactly why nothing what we do will change anything. We'll only hurt ourselves with Sanctions.

I've been saying that since 2023 even though so many pro Palestinians assured me that it would all be quickly over if we just banned weapons exports or recognised Palestine.

Air dropping food is the best and the most Germany should and can do.

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u/Fluffy-Republic8610 1d ago

Sanctions will change things. Unless you are going to argue that Apartheid South Africa came back into the fold because the realised what they were doing was wrong all by themselves one day?

Don't try to pretend that nothing can be changed. I get sick of the tactics of european zionists who if they are out argued, resort to saying that it doesn't matter anyway. We talked about low class behavior earlier. That is low class discussion tactics.

We'll see in time what sanctions against Israel change. Just get out of the way.

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u/Sea-Bend-5914 1d ago

"There's nothing we can do that would change the situation."
Also said by many Russians regarding the "situation" in Ukraine. Think about that

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

The last 3 years have proved that we can do plenty to change the situation in Ukraine.

But please just answer my question about Gaza. What should the government do?

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u/Sea-Bend-5914 1d ago

It isn't, but 20% vote for Nazis. And the center-right is moving to the right and taking up talking points from these Nazis.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Do we both live in the same Germany? Please visit a actual authoritarian nation, because you don't seem to know what that actually means. If Germany was actually authoritarian, the police would be knocking on your door right now for writing this comment.

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u/ikarusproject Germany 1d ago

Facts: Germany used to be more liberal.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

When exactly? And since when is less liberal automatically authoritarian?

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u/ikarusproject Germany 1d ago

I didn't say it was. I said it's moving on the gradient from liberal to authoritarian. That's not the same.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

When was Germany more liberal? Can I please get an answer? I'm generally curious.

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u/ikarusproject Germany 1d ago

You said you live in Germany? Are you blind?

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Dude, please just answer my question. The only people that I personally know who say that Germany is moving towards authoritarianism are AfD Voters.

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u/ikarusproject Germany 1d ago

You can't be arguing in good faith. Germany used to be more liberal in many aspects of society and has become more closed and conservative since the 2010s because people are realizing the economic uncertainty and potential decline of a country with the lacking innovation, aging population, aging infrastructure and increasing economic divide.

The AFD is absolutely not arguing Germany is becoming more authoritarian but the opposite. Falling apart due to immigration and a bloated social system. They want Germany to become more authoritarian to the counter that and slash the social security.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Maybe it was more liberal in some aspects in the 90s like you claim. But if you were homosexuell and wanted to marry, you'd have a bit of a problem just to name one example. Plus I can't really think of many aspects that made us more liberal.

And allowing more migrants into the country than ever before and more than any other EU country in 2015 is not exactly my definition of becoming More conservative. Quite the opposite actually.

The AfD is the party that voiced the loudest opposition to paragraph 188 StGB. If you've been following the news last and this year, you know what I mean.

Plus, let's not forget about all those "nieder mit der Coronadiktatur" protests the AfD had during 2020 and 2021. They are definitely the ones claiming we're becoming authoritarian. You can also look at what AfD leaders and voters are writing on Twitter, if you don't believe me.

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u/Sea-Bend-5914 1d ago

No. It doesn't work that way. Many authoritarian countries don't actually arrest their opponents. But it doesn't mean that they aren't authoritarian.

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u/GlobalFriendship5855 1d ago

Please look up the definition of authoritarianism.

And Germany has a score of 95/100 in the freedom house index. Ahead of the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Poland, etc.

Any statistic will prove that Germany is no where near authoritarian. But we live in a time where personal opinion is more important than facts.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores

https://freedomhouse.org/country/germany