r/europe • u/nohup_me • 1d ago
News Finland unveils world's largest sand battery for heating
https://newatlas.com/energy/largest-sand-battery-finland-pornainen/?utm_source=tldrnewsletter7
u/One_5549 1d ago
I was wondering where they got all the sand from. Is it a special type of sand etc?
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u/ballimi 1d ago
Why use sand?
Sand and similar materials can be heated to temperatures far beyond the boiling point of water, allowing them to store much more energy than water in a similar volume. This makes sand a space-efficient and versatile solution for various industrial applications.
What type of sand is used?
Our system isn’t very sensitive to sand grain size. We prefer using high-density, low-cost materials that are not in demand for construction, often utilizing industrial by-products. This ensures sustainability and cost-effectiveness.
Does grain size matter?
Not significantly. We prioritize using grain sizes that are unsuitable for the construction industry to reduce resource competition.
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u/variaati0 Finland 1d ago
that is the beauty of this. Almost any mineral sand works and it grain size isn't critical. However typically they try to find a cheap, usually waste stream product. In this case crushed off cuts and broken slabs from a soap stone quarry. Pieces not suitable for the quarrys main business, making very fancy soap stone fireplaces and ovens.
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u/Grouchy_Fan_2236 1d ago
Making sand is not exactly rocket science. You take any rock and grind it untill it becomes very fine.
I doubt this type of application needs anything special. It should be homogeneous so engineers don't mess up the simulation, but other than that it's just your regular sand mined that any Finnish mine can produce.
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u/Im_Your_Turbo_Lover US 1d ago
There's building sand vs other types though. It's why Saudi has to import sand.
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u/_daidaidai 23h ago
Are there any reports on the cost of this and how it compares to more traditional ways of generating heat?
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u/Tardosaur 22h ago
It's not generating anything
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u/Hardly_lolling Finland 21h ago
It is generating lots of international headlines, has been for a while.
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u/_daidaidai 20h ago
There are heating elements inside the battery, so it’s generating and storing heat from electricity, no?
Either way I’m just wondering if there is actual data on the economics of this system or just press releases.
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u/Tardosaur 20h ago
The electricity is generated elsewhere, this is just a battery
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u/requiem_mn Montenegro 19h ago
Electricity is generated elsewhere, but heat is generated inside the battery, from electricity.
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u/Tardosaur 18h ago
Converting electricity to potential energy in a battery is not "generating", it's "storing".
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u/requiem_mn Montenegro 18h ago
By that logic, converting pressure energy (any steam powered power plant like coal or nuclear) or potential energy of water (hydro) or kinetic energy of air (wind generators) is not generating electricity, it is converting from one form of energy to another. Nevertheless, I hope we can agree that we would say it is actually generating electricity in all of the above cases.
Similarly, you are generating heat using electricity inside the battery, which is then stored in sand, i.e. in said battery. Meaning, there are two processes, one, converting electricity to heat, i.e. generating heat, and second, storing that heat in the battery.
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u/Tardosaur 18h ago
Yeah, and driving a car is "generating kinetic energy", got it
I'm also "generating heat" while answering to this dumb fucking comment
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u/requiem_mn Montenegro 17h ago
Yes to both actually. Only, in first case, nobody would say that, and in second case, absolutely yes, every human alive is generating heat.
Anyway, on topic, here is another article regarding this battery:
Import part:
This works by a process called resistive heating, whereby heat is generated through the friction created when an electrical current passes through any material that is not a superconductor.
There are fucking resistive heaters inside the battery. They, could you imagine that, generate heat.
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u/psihius 20h ago edited 20h ago
Directly no, but i have been looking into doing this type of system for my homestead (it's a big stone house 270 m2 and 909m3 of volume) via a company called BatSand - they are wrapping up certifications and patents in parallel with running some pilot systems and should start selling to market sometime next year - I've made sure they contact me once they are ready.
The beauty of this things is it's somewhat affordable. The unit that does heat generation and heating is roughly 7 - 10k depending on required power output. You can tie it into a solar field (in my case i will need between 40-50 kWh of panels) and you do not need to grid tie it at all if you have the capacity for it. And even grid tied, you can store heat at cheap rates through the summer or even at night in winter.
While there's not much detailed info, the general principle is sound and storage is basically a shipping container buried into the ground, properly isolated and water proofed. For all house of my size it looks like I need about 80m3 of sand. They estimate that with all the materials and average cost of work, it can be done within 10-15k eur (these days probably closer to 20k) + the heating unit. In general it looks competitive with installing a ground loop based heatpump (and I already have one, but it's quite old and by 2030 it probably will wear out).
The beauty of this is that you don't need a lot of power to run the thing when taking the heat out of the system to heat the house and hot water, which make it possible to run it on backup power if power goes out (which is a thing for me in the country side).
It probably does not make a lot of sense for smaller houses as cost of the unit and earthworks do have a baseline of where it's not as cost effective, but for my case - it will end up being a lot cheaper long term as from 2029 our kWh for kWh system ends and I need ~20 MWh of electricity a year, 85% being heating and hot water. I can't offset that amount even with 16 kW solar system already, and considering the cost of electricity, I will be paying ~5k a year in electricity alone, solar will offset only about a 1000 at that point (people who are already on this new system report electricity is taken at 0.06-0.07 cents, but we buy back at like 0.20 cents. So being able to just store heat and not involve the grid is major savings).
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u/lgr95- 21h ago edited 21h ago
100MWh. Let's not be ridiculous.
That's the energy a medium nuclear power plant produces in like 90 seconds! Oh, I forgot this sub hates nuclear for no reason.
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u/tastyjulio 18h ago
Nuclear is great as a baseload, but it has it's problems too. Energy storage is going to be critical in the future energy system, and keep in mind this is only the first of it's kind.
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u/Hates_commies 21h ago
Meanwhile the local nuclear power plant pumps 2/3 of its waste heat into the ocean.
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u/vuorivirta Finland 21h ago edited 20h ago
Actually, in Finland, these kind of "waste" heat are using with central district heating systems. Example, Google-data center produced waste heat is used by city of Hamina "house radiators" main heat source. Like geothermal energy, but source is "wasted" heat. And this is used already a decades. Pipes are ready underground every even small 10K cities. Only "heat source" changed time to time. Old days, big factories produce that heat. Now datacenterc etc.
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u/Hates_commies 20h ago
Which is why its strange that the Loviisa nuclear power plant still pumps so much heat into the ocean when the district heating systems are used in other nearby cities. I actually misquoted my source in the above comment. 2/3 of all heat produced by the reactor goes to the ocean, not 2/3 of waste heat. https://www.fortum.com/fi/tietoa-meista/energiantuotanto/voimalaitoksemme/loviisan-voimalaitos/ymparistovaikutukset
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u/vuorivirta Finland 18h ago
Loviisa powerplants are ancient soviet-build plants. Ofc plants itself is very well maintained and modernized, but other infrastructure is at that era. Maybe those plant's havent capability build so efficient central heating compatibility.
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u/superkickstart Finland 1d ago
Now if we build a giant tent over it, add couple wooden seats and then throw some water on it 👀