r/europe • u/MarktpLatz Lower Saxony (Germany) • Apr 03 '17

What do you know about... Ukraine?

This is the eleventh part of our ongoing series about the countries of Europe. You can find an overview here.

Todays country:

Ukraine

Ukraine is the largest country that is completely on the european continent. The Ungarian people's republic was founded in 1917, the ukrainian state in 1918. It later became part of the soviet union and finally got independent in 1991. Currently, Ukraine is facing military combat with russia-backed rebels and the crimean peninsula was completely annexed by Russia. Ukraine will host the next eurovision song contest.

So, what do you know about Ukraine?

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u/DrTacoLord Mexico Apr 04 '17 edited Apr 04 '17

Some thingsn I've learnt about Ukraine

  1. They really love their country and are very convinced that Russia tried to suppress their identity and language. They're like Catalonian nationalists on Steroids.

  2. It seems a very beautiful country and its women are gorgeou, I hope to visit it one day.

  3. Their national hero: Stepan Bandera is controversial say the least.

  4. It's slightly less corrupt than my dear Mexico, or perhaps the corruption is as Widespread that nobody talks about it.

  5. It's division between Pro-EU and Pro-Russian politics can be the country's downfall, IMO its future's prosperity it's with the West but Russia will do anything to keep it as a buffer state or an unofficial protectorate, yet if the Ukrainians want to scape Russian's influence They will and eventually join the EU, if that's what They want.

  6. In the 90's some were pissed off because some people added "the" before Ukraine. Appartently it's considered as if Ukraine was still a region inside russian territory, I respectfully disagree but if they want "The" dropped from the name be it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/orthoxerox Russia shall be free Apr 04 '17

I take it you should get swole.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17

They really love their country and are very convinced that Russia tried to suppress their identity and language. They're like Catalonian nationalists on Steroids.

Well they have independence which the Catalans haven't had.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17

Common wisdom in Ukraine is that Bandera was not the brightest among 5-6 most prominent figures in mid-XX Ukraine independence movement (Konovalets, Shukhevich etc). Nor he was the one responsible for ethnic cleansings and massacres during WW2, nor he was ideological follower of Nazi. KGB made a symbol of Ukrainian nationalist from Bandera so his contemporary glorification is mainly leveraging hostile propaganda.

I believe that in a few years Bandera hype would be steered towards heroes of contemporary RF-Ukraine war.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '17

Pro tip: drop the upa-bandera "love" and everyone in Poland will love you, including our retarded nationalists. That's literally the only reason some polish people have problem with Ukraine. Other then that actually nobody has any bad feelings for Ukraine and its people.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 04 '17

Bandera was responsible for ethnic cleansing, he was a head of UON-B, organisation that was solely responsible for genocide. Also the other "prominent figure" you mentioned Shukhevich was equaly bad if not worse than Bandera

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u/cookedpotato Ukraine/Murica Apr 04 '17

He wasn't leading shit at that time as he was in a concentration camp. It was some other dumbfuck. As a matter of fact Bendera had written a menifesto for after the war where he had wanted to assimilate not purge the Poles.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 04 '17

Hitler wasn't in Auschwitz

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17

Bandera was at death camp since late June-1941. I believe that's consensus among Ukraine and Poland historians that Bandera took small part in practical OUN activities since then. And he obviously was not involved in massacres physically.

I'm not denying facts (ethnical background of massacre) but labelling Bandera 'responcible' is oversimplification.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 04 '17

No it's not. We all know that Bandera wasn't a regular prisoner, he was kept in special part as a political prisoner and his living conditions were much better, he for example have access to an outside world, so he can easily exchange Intel with his counterparts in occupied Poland. Moreover Sachsenhausen wasn't a death camp but a konzentration lager, the difference is huge. Also we dont have confirmation that Bandera ordered genocide of polish people but for sure it was conducted by a members of his organisation, and he was one of creator of its antipolish integral nationalistic and at least semi-fashist view

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u/carrystone Poland Apr 04 '17

at least semi-fashist view

lel, it was as fascist as it gets

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17

We all know that Bandera wasn't a regular prisoner

That's true. And still de-facto he was not a leader of OUN since 1941.

so he can easily exchange Intel with his counterparts

Mainly he exchanged intel with Vlasov and ROA. That's how he was used by Germans.

Also we dont have confirmation that Bandera ordered genocide of polish people

We have no confirmation that Hitler ordered Holocaust and still there's no doubt it happened. I appreciate you bring that here but that's no excuse.

he was one of creator of its antipolish integral nationalistic

Ukrainian integral nationalism creators were Dontsov and Mikhnovskiy. Bandera was no theorist, not until 1950-s.

and at least semi-fashist view

There were guys in OUN who embraced fascist views. Who were in favour of anti-Poles and (potential) anti-Jew massacres. Afaik Bandera was not among them.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 04 '17

So much bad history i cant even comprehend it. Bandera was as much antipolish and anti-Semitic as any other Ukrainian nationalist in the beginning of the xx century. After Konovalets and Doncov death Bandera was the most influential figure in the whole movement, especially in UON-b, which he created. Should I remind you about Galitzien Nachtigal, lviv pogrom???

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '17 edited Apr 04 '17

Dontsov died in 1970-s. Bandera in 1950-s.

Bandera was not the most influental figure in Ukrainian national movement during WW2. It's safe to say he was among 5-6 others (Melnik, Shukhevich, Lebyd, Bulba-Borovets). Because of a number of reasons contemporary Ukrainian nationalists don't especially like him (compared to others).

I do understand this is sensitive, paintful, and difficult topic, that you were taugh different outlook, but please don't switch it into accusations.

Edit: you're obviously right while thinking he was no good guy. You're probably right while thinking Ukrainian nationalists during WW2 didn't like anyone; Poles, Jews, Romanians, Slovaks, Belorusian, Russians, Hungarians, and Germans especially. But if you're thinking that all Ukrainian nationalists during XX were Nazi then you're wrong.