r/europe • u/MarktpLatz Lower Saxony (Germany) • Apr 25 '17

Australia? What do you know about... Austria?

This is the fourteenth part of our ongoing series about the countries of Europe. You can find an overview here.

Todays country:

Austria

Austria is a country in central Europe. Ever since world war two, Austria has maintained military neutrality, they have not been and still are not part of NATO. Austria also has the only green party head of state in Europe.

So, what do you know about Austria?

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

Austria squashed any sense of guilt regarding nazism by adhering to the narrative that it was a victim to German expansionism. Even though Austrian represented a disproportionate amount of SS troops, that 10% of the population was in the Nazi party, even more in the intelligentsia.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

I think the whole point of "country X is guilty of Y" is stupid. Just because you were German in WW2 doesn't mean you were evil or related to the Nazis in any way, and just because you were Russian doesn't mean you were a saint.

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u/ChrisTinnef Austria Apr 26 '17

Fortunately not the official position of our government anymore. Our chancellor Kern even was in Israel for the Holocaust Remembrance Day this year and took part in the ceremony together with the Israeli leaders, which is rare for a foreign leader.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

Even though Austrian represented a disproportionate amount of SS troops, that 10% of the population was in the Nazi party, even more in the intelligentsia.

This is very misleading though. Austria was forcibly annexed by Germany, regardless what Austrian feelings were. And Germany had lots more Nazi officials and SS troops than Austria.

Austria was also not extremely loyal to the Reich as a province, with independance being claimed already in 1945.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '17

They had more, but in proportion of population Austria was ahead. And even for officials and party member. The Berlin philarmony had 10 or so nazis amongst its 120 members. In Vienna, it was 80 or so nazis amonsgt 120.

Source : Post-war, Tony Judt

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 25 '17

He said that Austrians were overrepresented in SS, not there were more of them than Germans; also the government was against Anschlus​ and it was done by force, but let's be honest majority of people supported it

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u/sevven777 Austria Apr 25 '17

we will never know how many people supported the nazis.

could be anwhere from 1 - 100%.

but you know better probably. this is the internet after all.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 26 '17

read my other comments, i know better cause I am historian; I never said that majority supported nazis, I only said they were supporting unification - two different things

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '17

Well its more complicated - mayn might have thought that the nazis were too radical but supported Anschluss nonetheless due to distrust in austria being able to exist independently

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u/luleigas Austria Apr 25 '17

but let's be honest majority of people supported it

There is no way to prove that.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 25 '17

Wiki:

The constitutions of the Weimar Republic and the First Austrian Republic included the political goal of unification, which was widely supported by democratic parties. In the early 1930s, popular support in Austria for union with Germany remained overwhelming, and the Austrian government looked to a possible customs union with German Republic in 1931.

A referendum on the Anschluss with Germany was held in German-occupied Austria on 10 April 1938,[1] alongside one in Germany.[2] German troops had already occupied Austria one month earlier, on 12 March 1938. The official result was reported as 99.73% in favour,[3] with a 99.71% turnout.[4]

Although there were irregularities, LIFE in 1938 acknowledged that the results of the referendum and its German counterpart were "largely honest"[8] Some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but there is no evidence that this was necessary.[9] The result was "... the outcome of opportunism, ideological conviction, massive pressure, occasional vote rigging and a propaganda machine that Austria's political culture had never before experienced."[10] The massive pressure to which people were exposed came from the fact that many were marking the ballot paper in front of the campaign workers in order not to be suspected of voting against the Anschluss.[11] The secrecy of the ballot was in practice non-existent.[12]

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u/luleigas Austria Apr 25 '17

The referendum was not free and fair, it was a fucking joke. Do you also believe in North Korean elections, they also have 99.7% turnout and 99.9% votes for Kim.

In the last free elections in Austria before the Anschluss the Nazi party got a whopping 3%. From 3% to 99%, sounds legit.

I'm not saying there wasn't a lot of support for the Anschluss but I am saying that there is no way to prove how much it actually was, and certainly not 99%.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 25 '17

Although there were irregularities, LIFE in 1938 acknowledged that the results of the referendum and its German counterpart were "largely honest"[8] Some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but there is no evidence that this was necessary

It wasn't a joke. As wiki says it wasn't entirely fair referendum but it was showing more or less the people's opinion. Secondly you shouldn't identify support of Nazi party with the support of unification - two totally different things

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u/luleigas Austria Apr 26 '17

It wasn't a joke. As wiki says it wasn't entirely fair referendum but it was showing more or less the people's opinion.

You do realize that you are essentially parroting Nazi propaganda? "Not entirely fair", are you fucking kidding me?

Before the referendum, Austria was annected by force. Then, an enormous propaganda campaign was rolled out in favour of the unification; needless to say, there was no dissenting votes allowed, let alone free press or fair discussion. Furthermore, a large portion of voters (jews, political opponents) were not allowed to vote. At the actual referendum, people were forced to vote publicly and the Nazis made it clear that even if you chose to vote secretly, there will be inspections. But even under these conditions, >99% turnout and >99% "yes"-votes are implausible, so there for sure was also vote-rigging, ballot-stuffing, or the numbers were simply made-up. Even by the lowest democratic standards this referendum cannot be used to prove anything.

Secondly you shouldn't identify support of Nazi party with the support of unification - two totally different things

No, you should not mix this up. You stated that during the first Austrian republic (which ended in 1934), there was quite a lot of support for unification with Germany; then you concluded that this proves that the people wanted to unite with Nazi-Germany in 1938. As I said, I do not exclude the possibility, I'm just saying that we cannot know because there was no fair referendum.

By the way, the Nazis also never won the absolute majority in free and fair elections in Germany.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 26 '17

By the way, the Nazis also never won the absolute majority in free and fair elections in Germany.

Yes if you count also votes casted on Deutschnationale Volkspartei, which was basically satellite-party of NSDAP. My point from the begining is that majority of Austrians in prewar period was supporting idea of unification with Germany. It's just a fact.

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u/luleigas Austria Apr 26 '17

Yes if you count also votes casted on Deutschnationale Volkspartei, which was basically satellite-party of NSDAP.

Depends if you still count 1933 as free and fair elections but... okay.

My point from the begining is that majority of Austrians in prewar period was supporting idea of unification with Germany. It's just a fact.

If it's a fact then how do you explain that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#Schuschnigg_announces_a_referendum

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

[deleted]

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u/Obraka That Austrian with the Dutch flair Apr 26 '17

the vote wasn't even secret.

Ofc, rather obviously, for a secret vote they wouldn't have done the 'different sizes of the boxes' thing

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u/sandr0 BUILD A WALL Apr 25 '17

but let's be honest majority of people supported it

Not even the majority in germany supported it, NSDAP never reached over 50% in an offical election.

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u/iwanttosaysmth Poland Apr 25 '17

In both Austria and Germany NSDAP wasn't only party that supported unification