25fps of 50fps

[u/SuspiciousMaterial85]

Eurovision Song Contest 2024 is the first time ever that stage performances are filmed and broadcasted in 25 frames per second in a technique called "Progressive Segmented Frames". In short, it is shot in 25 frames per second and broadcasted with double the frame rate. This differs from the one shot and broadcasted in native 50 frames per second like in 2023 and before. Notice short fade between title card and the actual performances

According to the organizing committee in SVT (Swedish Television), this kind of technique will give the perception of music videos, but it still have a feel of live TV show. This has been tried in Melodifestivalen months prior.

This kind of technique then used again by SRG SSR the next year. And if I have to be frank, some of the 2025 songs are "okay" to be shot and broadcasted these way.

What are your thoughts? Shall ORF keep this technique for 2026, or should they go back to 50 frames per second?

Edit: wrong title

[u/Kubasratzka]

2024 used PsF but 2025 did not, at least not in the same way.

In 2024 the cameras were outputting 25 PsF so the actual footage coming to the truck was never non-psf 50, but PsF "25" together with the shutter etc being set in a way that everything had motion blur, except the steadicams which were sending regular 1080i50 and then framerate was changed to 25 via software through the mixer. The broadcast itself, graphics etc. was regular 1080i50.

In 2025, this changed (for the better but still 25) by the cameras sending your normal 50 frames to the truck, and then when the song starts, they essentially put a "filter" on the camera signals in the vision mixer, to explain it in very simple terms- imagine it like dropping a 50fps video into a premiere timeline that's in 25fps, you get the 25 output while the source is 50. Which means that somewhere, there is a full 50fps version of the entire show as all camera signals etc. are recorded in the truck, and then there's the "master" recording with all effects etc. This explains why all non-performance segments are in 50fps.

If you manage to watch a version of the show in 50, you can notice that during some performances (poison cake as an example, 2:01, at the "sweet revenge" lyric right before it cuts to the top shot of the dancers), the 25fps filter drops out and you see the frame rate go to 50 for a split second.

Personally, forcing all acts to use 25fps is a horrible choice, artistically speaking. It's not a music video no matter how much they want to say it is. Same with the defaulted aspect ratio. This is a TV show, not a movie.

The only song which I would 100% agree with being in 25 is voyage, because they actually had a Cinema camera to use for it! That looked like a live music video feel. It was beautiful. Not like the "parody" that they do for the normal performances which just ruins it for me. All delegations should have a choice, do you want 50 or 25 and that weird movie aspect ratio?

Milkshake Man/Ich Komme or Survivor look absolutely stunning in 50, it looks so lively as if you're standing there! I've been converting these shows to 50 because I just can't stand looking at that choppiness.

Objectively- everyone should have a choice, and not be forced to it. I've heard some delegations don't really like it. I was very happy with the amount of performances that were in 16:9, using the entire canvas instead of putting a PNG on the top & bottom and calling it "cinematic".

Ultimately, I hope ORF will go back to 50.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kubasratzka]

Honestly i was surprised to find out about this whole thing. At first i panicked thinking they were downgrading the quality but then i saw the fancy descriptions from u and op and i thought “it’s SVT they know what they’re doing”

However looking at your Poison Cake example i am very surprised that the 50fps moment is actually VERY evident, it’s maddening really. I never even noticed  they downgraded the quality starting 2024 but now i cant unsee it. They better switch back to 50

[u/[deleted] → u/Kubasratzka]

Do you mind sharing clips of milkshake man, ich komme and survivor in 50fps like you said? Sharing is caring!

[u/Kubasratzka → u/[deleted]]

It's not really about downgrading the quality (although the broadcasted satfeed does have a lower bitrate since 2024 which might explain some things looking a bit worse to some people) but rather wanting it to look "like a music video", per the directors words, who's been the same for the past two years. I think it's time for a change. 2025 was essentially ESC 2024 with the amount of SVT/Swedes working on it in core positions.

For the 50fps clips, they aren't native, they are converts that I did with my friend. We didn't do individual ones but full shows. Here they are on gdrive, beware the size is in tens of GBs. :) SF1 SF2 Grand Final

There have been some alterations in the later shows, so just keep that in mind. :) Need to be downloaded to view in full quality, Google Drive compresses preview videos into 25/30fps.

If mods don't approve this- please comment and I'll remove the link. Thanks!

[u/Kubasratzka → u/Kubasratzka]

Speaking of quality, the motion blur in 2024 was really the worst offender of that entire year. A mess

[u/[deleted] → u/Kubasratzka]

Thanks! I really appreciate it!