r/finnougric • u/DaCowie • May 01 '25
Where did the finno ugrics come from before setting into the urals?
I’m not really sure but is it possible that early finno ugric people descended from the altai/lake baikal region, having ANE ancestry and mixing with the siberian populations and movng into the ural mountains where the languages diverged.
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u/Karabars May 01 '25
Finno-Ugrics are mostly haplogroup N, thus Siberian.
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u/mediandude May 02 '25
The oldest R1a found so far was found in finno-ugric lands, about 15km south of Kotlas.
Thus both N1a1a and R1a can be considered equally "finno-ugric".The fact is that N1a1a spread within the already existing uralic domain, it didn't spread the uralic languages, it surfed it.
At least 90% of uralics have always lived in europe. And about half of the siberian uralics trace their ancestry back to europe. Which means at least 95% of uralics have their origin in europe.1
u/Karabars May 02 '25
Oldest is misleading as we don't have all the samples. Modern distributions and clade variety means more to decipher origin. R1a is not Finno-Ugric but Indo-European, which mixed early on as each migrated towards the other.
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u/mediandude May 02 '25
R1a is not Finno-Ugric but Indo-European
Speculation without proof.
The more relevant point being that haplogroups are lousy markers for ethnic origin. Single dominant haplogroup is a sign of genetic bottlenecks, usually due to repeated sweeps of infectious (zoonotic) diseases such as coronaviruses, plagues and such. Those diseases tend to jump species and spread from large population centers, without requiring elaborate fantasies of conquest or tribal migrations. Disease forcings can elevate haplogroup from a low (1%) level into dominant level in mere 300 years. Even more so in small effective population sizes such as finns or samoyeds or siberian ugrics.
PS. The genetic benchmark of finnicness are estonians, not finns, because most finnics used to live to the south of the Bay of Finland mere 500 years ago. And at the start of the local iron age at least 50% of the Baltics was still finnic.
There have always been more finnics living in the Baltics than uralics in Siberia.1
u/Karabars May 02 '25
Speculation is what you write. Finno-Ugric and Indo-European are not ethnicities. The current census and scholarly agreement is that Finnougrics are Siberian descends and R1a is tied mostly to Indo-Europeans (like Slavs, and the Turkic groups mixing with them).
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u/mediandude May 02 '25
The current census and scholarly agreement is that Finnougrics are Siberian descends
There is no such scholarly consensus, has never been.
No consensus uralic linguistic tree has been found at any level whatsoever. No tree - no branches - no branchings - no timing of branchings - no point origin.
Sprachbund has to be assumed by default, until consensus linguistic tree would suggest otherwise.
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u/mediandude May 02 '25
Finno-ugrics have always existed in europe right where they are.
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u/BackgroundBat1119 May 05 '25
you believe they just spawned there like with console commands?
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u/mediandude May 05 '25
The Väina of Väinämöinen refers to the periglacial meltwater system of ice lakes, straits and rivers. The river Väina started from the Polotsk ice lake. Väinameri is the partial remnant of the Baltic Ice Lake. The 700 years pregnancy of Ilmatar referred to the eventual flood of lake Ilmen during Meltwater Pulse 1a. The egghills of the finnic land creation myth are in Haanja and Otepää uplands in Estonia.
And as to Perm (Perämaa = the Outback), it was inhabited throughout the last ice age.
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u/AnUnknownCreature Jun 23 '25
That's part of the Finnic makeup, the Aurignacian descendants mixed with both Finno-Ugric Nomads and even had some back migration with them around the time of the Easter Hunter Gatherers, toward the Urals, Steppes and Siberia
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u/mediandude Jun 23 '25
Peaking autosomal WHG shows that most of the baltic-finnics have a local native swiderian and post-swiderian background. Uniparental haplogroups show a bit differently, but those are misleading anyway, because of multigenerational epidemics sweeps and deliberate breeding to gain resistance to that.
The HIV resistance gene peaks in the Baltics.
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u/[deleted] May 01 '25 edited Jun 28 '25
[deleted]