"social media lookouts" and government ethics

[u/Such_Morning4459]

tiktok lookouts making money using their federal jobs as content, am I insane or is that extremely not allowed/borderline illegal?

[u/Mysterious_Flight_]

Being a lookout is both a lifestyle and a job, the lookouts that I've seen post online seem to be completely acceptable/ethical. We have hours when we are working, but there are also hours where we are just living our normal lives while on site and people pursue all sorts of hobbies.I don't see why content creation would be any different (from an ethics standpoint) from something like writing a book about life as a lookout

[u/Such_Morning4459 → u/Mysterious_Flight_]

Yeah that's why I asked because I'm not entirely sure of the rules concerning it. Also you're pretty off on that book analogy. The people on tiktok are literally filming a video of them reporting a smoke and then making a profit off said video. I promise you that violates some form of ethics and at the very least it's an incredibly bad look in this current fraud, waste and abuse era we're in

[u/Mysterious_Flight_ → u/Such_Morning4459]

Could you link the video of them reporting the smoke? I can almost guarantee they either:

a. Were already recording, and it would've been a waste of time to stop the recording to call it in

or more likely

b. Already called it in, then took the video of the smoke.

Once a smoke is called in, there is nothing we can do but wait and watch. I dont post online but the first thing I do after calling in a smoke is absolutely pull out my phone and take videos/photos, both for myself (to compare to as the smoke grows) and to share with other lookouts (or friends and family, if they arent sick of my smoke photos). This is very common practice, at least among the lookouts I know, and I was strongly encouraged to do it when I was trained. What about it do you believe is unethical?

[u/pitamakan → u/Mysterious_Flight_]

I knew this thread was going to get riddled with downvotes the instant I saw it ... but I think part of the problem is how one defines "ethical." Monetizing content created as part of your job may or may not violate one's personal moral compass, but that's not necessarily going to be congruent with the federal government's published regulations regarding workplace ethics. Those regulations specify that you can't use your position title, official workspace, or government equipment as part of a monetization effort. Any lookout that is monetizing their content is in pretty obvious violation of those regulations -- and those guidelines are a part of their conditions of employment, which they agreed to when they took the job.

Obviously, that's not to say that you can't shoot photos or video while working -- that's part of the job. And that doesn't mean you can't responsibly share it. You're just not allowed to build a side gig out of it, which is what some of the TikTokers are doing.

[u/Mysterious_Flight_ → u/pitamakan]

I see other federal workers posting content that violates that all the time, so I'm assuming its just not enforced whatsoever. If you search "Day in the life of a nurse/EMT/police officer/park ranger/firefighter/social worker/etc" you will find thousands of videos on tiktok of people sharing their job and lifestyle. If its not enforced for them, I dont see why it should be for lookouts

[u/pitamakan → u/Mysterious_Flight_]

As I tried to explain, in the eyes of the US federal government the issue isn't with posting content, it's monetizing content. Federal employees post photos all the time, and as long as they're not sharing confidential material or doing it to earn extra money, that's totally fine. (Our government actually considers all employee photography performed during work hours to be public domain material.) There obviously has to be a line somewhere, though, and for a federal job in the US that's where the line is. Whether you like the rule or not, you need to be able to live with it if you're going to accept the job.

And honestly, there are a couple of lookout TikTokers out there who clearly spend way more work time filming content than they do actually watching for smoke. It's hard not to see that as being a little problematic.

[u/Mysterious_Flight_ → u/pitamakan]

I dont think that they even care about monetization content, though. Like I said, there are people who post their federal jobs on tiktok with hundreds of thousands of followers without issue, some of them clearly have the knowledge/approval of their coworkers as they involve them in their videos. An EMT showing off their ambulance is no different from a lookout showing off their tower. If anything, the lookout is "more ethical" as the tower is both our workplace and our private residence

I completely agree that they shouldn't be sharing confidential information or neglecting the duties of their job to post online. I personally haven't seen that, but if it's happening it should be discouraged and punished. That's absolutely problematic, but thats a separate issue. Everyone agrees that it's unethical to post confidential information. Everyone agrees that you should prioritize your job over your hobbies and diligently watch for smokes.

The monetization though? I dont see a problem with that. Lookouts will work online jobs while working their tower. Some will make things that they will sell over the winter. Some will write books that they will sell. I dont see why a hobby like making/posting videos would be any different

[u/Such_Morning4459 → u/Mysterious_Flight_]

hey man, I'm really not trying to be mean or condescending, but do you know what a federal job is? because almost everything you just listed isn't a federal job. We're talking about usa federal jobs, not Becky making a tiktok at the ice-cream shop.

[u/Fluid_Supermarket711 → u/Such_Morning4459]

You’ve been condescending this whole thread, wild man.

[u/Mysterious_Flight_ → u/Such_Morning4459]

I'm pretty sure every single job I listed can be a federal worker, even if not all of them are. Even if they're not, my point still stands. I doubt there are many federal jobs out there that dont have content of them online, including on tiktok, that are monetized. Like if you literally search "federal job USA" on tiktok there are hundreds of creators making videos about the fact that they have a federal job

[u/Such_Morning4459 → u/Mysterious_Flight_]

Maybe you're deliberately missing the point? they're making money from social media content focused in their federal job. Perhaps you missed a few aglearns? That's not allowed man.

[u/Mysterious_Flight_ → u/Such_Morning4459]

There are hundreds of jobs that make money from social media content focused on their jobs. Search "Day in the life of a EMT/Doctor/Nurse/Firefighter/Police Officer/Park Ranger/Biologist/Social Worker/Etc" on tiktok and you will find thousands of videos. If there is a rule forbidding it, its absolutely not enforced to the point where its irrelevant.

On top of that, lookouts are rarely posting their actual work (if ever). The vast majority of social media content is cool views/wildlife from the tower, showing how they do their laundry/live at a tower, or just talking about their lifestyle in general. Working as a lookout is an usual job because the line between "work" and free time is blurred. When we are working we are allowed to kick back and read a book, when we are off the clock we might be hauling buckets of rain water because we need to. If someone's hobby is posting videos of their lifestyle, who cares

Also, I "missed" all of the AgLearns, I'm not American. I'm a Canadian lookout, we can't even make money off of tiktok here. Regardless I know multiple lookouts (both Canadian and American) who post videos on tiktok and other social medias

[u/seloki → u/Such_Morning4459]

They’re not “making a profit off said video”, they’re making money off the engagement with that video. Subtle distinction, but it’s important. They didn’t sell the rights to the video, or sell tickets to watch the video, which of course would be an ethical violation. They posted something that is free to the end user, and the money they make is from the host getting advertising dollars from engagement with that video. So it doesn’t technically violate any government social media policy.

[u/pitamakan]

Here's a link to a document that provides an official answer to this question from the Office of Government Ethics:

Using Social Media to Make Money

Among other things, it very specifically says that one is not allowed to "reference my official title ... or use photos or video containing government equipment or spaces as part of monetized content." So if you describe yourself as a federal lookout, or post monetized content in a lookout or showing government equipment, you are absolutely violating government regulations. It couldn't be clearer.

[u/Fluid_Supermarket711 → u/pitamakan]

Ah okay so there’s the clear reference. But then it goes back to, should I police others online presence or mind my own business if it’s not interfering with my own position and duties?

[u/abitmessy]

Are you sure they’re monetizing their platform, not just sharing their experience?

[u/pitamakan → u/abitmessy]

At least a couple of them have openly said that they’re pumping out more TikTok content so they can increase their earnings from the creators fund there.

[u/abitmessy → u/pitamakan]

Interesting. I don’t doubt that some are. I just wouldn’t accuse all of them of it, myself. Idk what they’ve got going on.

[u/Such_Morning4459 → u/abitmessy]

Yes i know for a fact several are and no im not accusing all of them of doing it. I'm mostly confused on how they're able to do it so openly, the ones with millions of views. Surely the overhead on their forest must know. 

I know most fed jobs aren't as tiktok worthy, but I'm trying to rack my brain trying to think of any other fed that would be so bold to monetize their job on the internet, I guess there's a few park rangers, but that's about it.

[u/abitmessy → u/Such_Morning4459]

I mean, you can blame co someone from your account but you can’t block everyone. I’d guess they’re flying under the radar.

edit: you can BLOCK someone

[u/Sensitive_Implement → u/Such_Morning4459]

Yes i know for a fact several are and no im not accusing all of them of doing it. I'm mostly confused on how they're able to do it so openly, the ones with millions of views. Surely the overhead on their forest must know.

Ah, but will they be doing it next year? That is the question. Its hard to replace a lookout mid-season

[u/Fluid_Supermarket711]

I mean so many fire crews film and monetize themselves on that platform as well…so the discussion is much larger than just lookouts. I know a few who make money and their overhead is aware and are happy that they can make extra cash during the season given how little we are paid. This job is very unique and obviously seems to be dwindling down. I say why not document and share the experience? But also I do agree that we shouldn’t be sharing in real time smoke reports and or radio traffic.

[u/daniwelllived]

Definitely a violation.

But beyond the actual hard and fast rules, personally I don't want my job to also become a second job nor do I want to accidentally miss something because I'm trying to record my daily routine. Of course, we all have downtime, but you can tell a lot of the content comes from on the clock activities when fires and lightning storms are happening, with active radio traffic or locations included. That's a big line cross to me.

Additionally, because it's social media that relies on clicks, there are some social media lookouts that turn things up (or rather down) for the camera and that leads to misinformation about our job being spread. In my opinion, that's where a lot of this "I want to focus on XYZ hobby for a summer and not pay rent so I should just become a lookout" attitude is originating.

Plus it's so easy to tell where some of these lookouts are working and with how weird parasocial relationships are, it feels unsafe.

[u/pitamakan]

You’re not insane, and it absolutely violates federal regulations. I count some of those people as my friends, but their behavior disheartens me, especially given the precarious nature of federal employment in general these days.

[u/Lookinforlightning]

I think it is really are the using the job for monetizing, or do they love job first then social media is just an add on if that makes sense. I am only aware of one lookout making money off of posts tbh.

What I really disagree with is lookouts sharing fires when they are actively going on. Especially when it like started that day and now your making a video about it. That sits very wrong to me.

[u/seloki]

For Federal Lookouts

All pictures/videos you take while on duty (getting paid) are technically the property of the government and cannot be posted without the permission of the government.

Is this enforced? Not really, the government doesn’t have the resources to police every employee’s social media.

As for people posting themselves on duty, ie reporting a smoke, as long as it doesn’t look bad for the government then the poster has an implied permission to post it. If the poster is monetizing the post, well, that’s a gray area. They’re not selling the pic/video directly, they’re selling the engagement with the post, so they aren’t really getting paid twice (very gray area I know). It’s hard to argue that a video of someone doing their job is proof that that person was creating content rather than doing their job.

Where it gets even grayer is whether you are actually publishing and retaining the rights to something you post on social media. If you claim a copyright or any other proprietary claim over a post that includes government owned media then that would be a problem, and I suspect the government would get any monies earned from that post.

As long as the content creation doesn’t interfere with your duties, then I don’t see the problem with using pics/videos recorded while on duty as part of a social media.

As others have said, we work from home and don’t work 24/7. What we do when not on duty is our own business. If that’s content creation for a TikTok or other social media, that’s fine. Using pics/videos recorded while on duty as part of that? Sure, as long as it does not show the government in a bad light and doesn’t interfere with assigned duties.

The main thing to take away is that your pics/vids belong to the government and you have permission to post them as long as it doesn’t make the government look bad. Monetizing a post that includes government owned media is a gray area, but should really be considered a privilege that can be taken away, so it’s best to be careful what you post.

Do I personally approve of “social media lookouts”? No, but I don’t really use social media so I don’t really think I have a good perspective to give.

[u/Both-Invite-8857]

You mean like they aren't up to the same ethical standards that we see everyday in Washington DC?

[u/Fluid_Supermarket711 → u/Both-Invite-8857]

😂