Why Ocon believes Haas F1 team is 'healthier' than Alpine

[u/CanonNi]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-ocon-reckons-haas-f1-team-is-healthier-than-alpine/10752456/

[u/Agreeable-Ad4079]

I mean, even from the outside, it clearly appears so

[u/thefeedling → u/Agreeable-Ad4079]

Not even RedBull is remotely as toxic as Alpine.

[u/Signal_Cockroach_878 → u/thefeedling]

And that's saying a lot

[u/kingkongbiingbong → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

Laughs in Flavio

[u/NNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA → u/kingkongbiingbong]

To be fair, Alpine was a shitshow even before Briatore came back, although it's unsure if he was unofficially involved with the team beforehand.

[u/Vinura → u/NNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]

Shit attracts shit or something

[u/Spare_Duck3119 → u/Vinura]

shit attracts shit

wow who's been eating magnets then?

[u/notafamous → u/NNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]

Even when Ricciardo left there were some drama (teamboss leaving, 100 races plan...), by the time Alonso and Piastri left, there's no denying, Alonso made sure to burn that bridge and he didn't have many left to do so

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/thefeedling]

If RB were actually as toxic people claim they are they would not have had so many employees stay there for so long. And the people that left didnt leave for sideways nope they basically all left for higher positions in other teams right when the dominated under the budget cap. The whole narrative is wastly overexagerrated. yes a lot of people left but it feels like the budget cap was a bigger part of that.

It is weird how much shit RB gets for "being toxic" but not for example Merc adn Toto who pushed his employees to a burnout in 2019 and had a bunch of them then leave to red bull powertrains.

[u/thefeedling → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

I was particularly referring to how drivers are handled, but fair point.

[u/Toaddle → u/thefeedling]

Every driver they were harsh to got a second chance. Most juniors in the other teams don't even get a first chance in the first place

This "Red Bull is toxic" narrative needs to end lmao

[u/totallykoolkiwi → u/Toaddle]

I think when people say RB is toxic they actually mean cutthroat and (in the autumn of the Horner era) disfunctional.

[u/damage-fkn-inc → u/Toaddle]

Say what you will about the RB junior programme, but both Zhou and Piastri had to leave Alpine to get on the grid whereas RB juniors at least have a decent chance of actually racing in F1.

[u/m1a2c2kali → u/damage-fkn-inc]

when you have 4 cars vs 2, it’ll always be easier.

[u/CMXV → u/Toaddle]

“We know that he has problems in qualifying, he has fluctuations in form, he is South American and he is just not as completely focused in his head as Max [Verstappen] is or as Sebastian [Vettel],” he said then.

The Austrian news website OE24 reported Marko as saying: “It wasn’t meant that way. I meant that a Mexican has a different mentality than a German or a Dutchman. But who knows, maybe it’s controlled.”

-Helmut Marko 2023

[u/Just_River_7502 → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

I’m not sure this is necessarily true. I worked in an international law firm that is known to be at the top of the lists. It’s a hugely toxic environment especially in certain groups (corporate, litigation, banking especially) but people continue to want to work there because they have amazing clients, deals, recognition etc. it’s a thing to just qualify, spend a couple years in the trenches and use the name on your cv to do pretty much anything else. I hated two of the four years I was there but it still opens doors more than ten years after I left.

. And you’ll absolutely get some people who love it, or see the toxicity but they just don’t think it’s that bad etc. Redbull sounds like that kind of environment to me

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/Just_River_7502]

this applies to all the f1 teams

[u/Virillus → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

Impossible to know how true this is, but McLaren has made a big deal out of changing this, and from the outside they appear to have been successful.

[u/drodrige → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

Yeah people act as if Red Bull have this ridiculous turnover when it’s the opposite. There’s a reason why so many high profile RB employees are well known. 

[u/Sofaboy90 → u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

Red Bull is considered toxic because Helmut occasionally makes some harsh statements that are always taken out of context as if he went out of his way to shit on people when in reality hes just being asked questions in interviews and hes giving honest answers.

I entirely agree with you, I personally have a rule of thumb to figure out if a team is genuinely toxic beyond reason or just a normal very competitive team. Remember this is Formula 1, an extremely high level of competition, its not a charity.

This rule of thumb is very simple: Do former or current employees OPENLY talk shit about your team or certain people in your team?

If the answer is no, I wouldnt call that team or person toxic beyond reason. Were just fans, we dont have all the insight, at best we can read between lines which some here do fail miserably at. But we can look and listen to genuine interviews and in the recent past, lets say the past 10 years, theres only a single team that ive seen MULITPLE people going on record to talk shit about the team and certain people in that team.

And that team is Renault/Alpine.

Alain Prost for a few years was an advisor to Renault. He left the team and went on record how rotten that team is and its higher ups, particularly the man in charge of the F1 project, I believe his name was Rossi?

Otmar had a short stint at Alpine and went on record after his stint about how the team had bad faith actors within who cared more about their standing within the organisation than the success of the F1 team itself.

I believe there was also once a written interview of a former regular employee going on record about the internal shitfest.

Then you go back to Red Bull and Helmut Marco, I personally dont remember any driver openly talk shit about Helmut, in fact guys like Seb and Max still have a great relationship with him.

Another case is Gunther Steiner whos also seen as rather toxic to which I have to disagree as well. The simple fact was that Gunther wasnt being given much by Gene and sort of with an attitude of "nothing to lose", Gunther decided to give the Netflix crew access to more insight and footage than other teams would allow. This naturally creates somewhat controversal scenes that may make him look "toxic" but at the same time it would be foolish to believe that this wouldnt be happening in any other team. But ofc the average redditor thinks this isnt happening in other teams as they havent seen it.

[u/AliceLunar → u/thefeedling]

Toxic based on what?

[u/ycnz → u/AliceLunar]

Well, there's the sexual harassment stuff..

[u/Grasshop → u/Agreeable-Ad4079]

Gestures broadly

[u/jnighy]

The lack of Briatore should be a major factor

[u/GoodGuyJeff00 → u/jnighy]

Tbh even before Briatore returned it was already a poor place with Alpine.

[u/darthfracas → u/jnighy]

Komatau vs Briatore? Yeah, that would be a no brainer

[u/The_Realest_Rando]

Ayo Komatsu isn't on the Epstein client list, so there's that...

[u/markusfenix75 → u/The_Realest_Rando]

Wait. Briatore is there?

This is literally first time I have ever heard that

[u/Own_Welder_2821 → u/markusfenix75]

It’s been known for quite a while.

[u/DeathHips → u/Own_Welder_2821]

Not only was he in Epstein's black book, but was one of the few people circled and had dozens of ways Epstein could contact him + people around him

Epstein's contact book, which isn't the FBI Epstein list, is available online and people can look at who is in it. From what I remember, Briatore has one of the largest entries.

[u/markusfenix75 → u/Own_Welder_2821]

I mean.. I'm sure it's a good list to be included in. It has US president after all.

Right? RIGHT?

[u/Oghamstoner → u/markusfenix75]

Possibly more than one.

[u/FlattenInnerTube → u/Oghamstoner]

Out them all. Every damn one.

[u/AltrntivInDoomWorld → u/Oghamstoner]

One is in special contacts though. Nice attempt at deflection from your current president though.

[u/Oghamstoner → u/AltrntivInDoomWorld]

Not my President, I’m English. I don’t know for certain, but it seems entirely possible both Trump and Clinton are named in these Epstein papers. Trump is currently actively engaged in a cover-up though, which is bad enough on its own, even if he had no personal stake.

Incidentally, it wouldn’t surprise me if there are other figures connected with F1 who are at least associated with Epstein, because he was so in with the rich and famous, even if they were innocent.

[u/TSMKFail → u/markusfenix75]

Yes, as is Ecclestone. Always the ones you least expect

[u/InvisibleScout → u/TSMKFail]

Least?

[u/Delta_FT → u/InvisibleScout]

Do you need people to use /s IRL too? lol

[u/hugglesthemerciless → u/Delta_FT]

fun fact: IRL speech has tone indicators, text lacks them which is why things like /s are a thing in the first place

[u/Delta_FT → u/hugglesthemerciless]

Text has context man. Ecclestone and Briatore are the 2 most corrupt figures in this sport, they obvoiusly are the ones you'd be least surprised

[u/Virillus → u/Delta_FT]

It's hard because sports tend to have a constant influx of new fans who have no idea who these people are. Personally, I've never heard of Ecclestone and Briatore outside of vague references. (Although I knew that comment was sarcasm).

[u/Delta_FT → u/Virillus]

Ecclestone I get it, bc he's been out of the sport for a whileee. But Briatore is the current TP of Alpine, and we've been talking about shady past a lot recently lol

[u/Virillus → u/Delta_FT]

It's definitely unlikely. But somebody could've caught a race last week and this was their first time on the subreddit.

Regardless, I take your point. But it is an essential issue with extreme large anonymous communities that you can never comfortably assume what information people have.

[u/CeronGaming → u/hugglesthemerciless]

/s/ kills the joke tho

[u/totallykoolkiwi → u/markusfenix75]

Same, but if it's true, can't say I'm surprised.

[u/cosHinsHeiR → u/markusfenix75]

Did you expect any less from him?

[u/Elderbrute → u/markusfenix75]

If he wasn't I'd have been more surprised.

[u/Blackdeath_663 → u/markusfenix75]

yep. unrelated fun fact, Briatore and Alonso are also named on the paradise papers

[u/hulaspark → u/Blackdeath_663]

Lewis too

[u/kaisadilla_ → u/markusfenix75]

Noob error to learn about something shaddy and not assume Briatore is involved in it.

[u/Ins3rt_Us3rname_H3re → u/markusfenix75]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted/

Briatore - p7 (circled), Ecclestone - p16, Stroll Sr - p79, JV - p55, Irvine - p28

Briatore’s ex Naomi Campbell is also in it, and she is confirmed to have been on the island when they were together.

[u/WhateverWhateverson → u/markusfenix75]

Please, just look at the man

It's as if the very concept of sleaze gained human form

[u/vaultsurvivor90 → u/The_Realest_Rando]

I already thought he was a piece of shite and didn't even know that

[u/PintMower]

Great to hear such a positive insight. Always love it when teams or companies take the engineering first approach. You must be able to talk openly about issues to have a chance to rise to the top. I can only immagine that it's also a perfect environment for Bearman to learn.

[u/Divide92]

Less corporate bullsh!t and no Briatore creates a better atmosphere I guess.

[u/jurassicpry → u/Divide92]

Also, no matter how funny focksmash was, lack of Steiner improved the atmosphere quite massively within Haas.

[u/Own_Welder_2821 → u/jurassicpry]

Focksmash was holding the team back. He might’ve been a memorable character outside of running a racing team but it was time for a change at Haas.

[u/Driscuits → u/Own_Welder_2821]

Yeah, Steiner was great in the role when he was needed most for Haas - and that was for getting the team into existence in the first place. And, hell, he could be considered a big part of the health of a lot of the mid-lower grid teams since DTS since he was such a big personality and draw for the show, and the downstream effect of the growth of F1.

But he wasn't what the team needed to actually succeed, sporting-wise. The team is in a much better place now.

[u/charlierc → u/Divide92]

Briatore: "I've heard enough. Ten second penalty for Ocon!"

Reddit: "That is so 2023, get some new memes"

[u/No_Sun_2121]

Its well known that Alpine doesnt listen to its drivers, Gasly has complained about it few months ago

[u/fordern997 → u/No_Sun_2121]

They listen, but they really think drivers are always wrong. 

[u/charlierc → u/fordern997]

Ferrari: "Hey! That's our thing!"

[u/Flight815Down → u/No_Sun_2121]

Even years ago, Alonso and Ricciardo both implied the same thing

[u/TeTeOtaku]

I mean it's great to have a team that doesn't analyse your tiniest imperfection to find a reason to fuck up your race or to kick you out of the team.

Plus having a teammate that you don't have generational beef with helps a lot i guess.

Esteban got really fucked by Alpine at every possible oportunity last year and then they decided to forget he ever drove for them after he massively helped them in the last 5 years.

[u/asamulya → u/TeTeOtaku]

I’ll repeat again, him and Gasly stayed very professional throughout their time as teammates. Alpine as a team was quite bad but their beef didn’t flare up except for a few cases

[u/Signal_Cockroach_878 → u/TeTeOtaku]

Him and Gasly had beef?

[u/FisicoK → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

Historically yes, they're from the same generation but had a clash when they were still children doing karting (they're roughly from the same area too) and barely spoke with each other afterwards.
Although they probably still kept it professionnal at Alpine most of the time

[u/adhikapp → u/FisicoK]

2 young talented drivers from the same region in France & same age range, going up the ranks to be in a competition with only 20 drivers in the whole world can reach, I'd be surprised if there weren't any beef.

[u/fordern997 → u/adhikapp]

And apparently it all started because of their parents, they were getting along quite okay - pretty reasonable as for kids with similiar dreams and interests. 

[u/reyderey → u/adhikapp]

Add that both didn't have a lot of money, Ocon's parents sold their house to finance his career while I think Gasly had trouble to find sponsors

[u/Driscuits → u/reyderey]

Yeah. I mean, there was the whole DTS ep on it, but both Gasly and Ocon have been fairly respectful/tight lipped about it (as is reasonable). I'd imagine the truth of it is that they were both barriers to each others' success for a very long time, in very intense, high stress situations (with financial stress piled on, too), when they were both very young. It's going to be tough to be good mates with someone through that.

[u/Signal_Cockroach_878 → u/Driscuits]

What season and what episode

[u/Driscuits → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

Cripes, no clue off the top of my head, mate. Probably last season or the one before, where they were teammates at Alpine. Look for the one with Gasly and Ocon?

[u/presidents_choice → u/Driscuits]

There was an episode about ocons upbringing, back when he was still with forceindia

[u/Driscuits → u/presidents_choice]

Oh yeah, that's one, too.

I'm thinking of the one from when they were teammates, with the very dramatic go kart race they made them do to reenact their feud lol.

[u/gsfgf → u/adhikapp]

Especially since guys with F1 potential are supposed to dominate juniors. But they presumably cannibalized each other's on paper records.

[u/NapsInNaples → u/adhikapp]

but you don't see that with many other drivers, right? Like there's photos of Lando and Max karting together, and various other drivers who've known and competed against each other since they were kids. And they don't hate each other...

So I'm not sure it' inevitable.

[u/HeyItsGuyIncognito → u/FisicoK]

Although they probably still kept it professionnal at Alpine most of the time

I thought their time together in Alpine, they handled themselves very well. The double podium together at Brazil 2024 was a great cap off to their time together.

[u/charlierc → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

They seemed both pretty stoked to be part of that double podium in Brazil tbf. Was nice to see after all their varying trials and tribulations together

[u/totallykoolkiwi → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

Yeah, they were the least toxic part of Alpine :D

[u/FisicoK → u/HeyItsGuyIncognito]

Monaco happened earlier in the year, that wasn't the first occasion and from the radio we did get a glimpse that it was the last straw

[u/Browneskiii → u/FisicoK]

Gasly is literally the angriest man alive when he's in the cockpit, I've never heard him be calm about anything, he literally shouts at everything and everyone.

Monaco was no different.

[u/Signal_Cockroach_878 → u/FisicoK]

That's absolutely hilarious considering they are very even on the track.

[u/TeTeOtaku → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

literally generational beef.

Their parents can't stand each other and they've been on "tense" terms since they were 13-14.

They had terms in their contracts that both families can't attend the same GP, it was THAT bad.

[u/kungfusam → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

It goes back to their karting days

[u/SmithBurger → u/Signal_Cockroach_878]

Ocon has had beef with more than one driver. Him and Perez were mortal enemies.

[u/Paukwa-Pakawa → u/SmithBurger]

Him and Perez were mortal enemies.

No they weren't. Perez kept crashing into him, but after their time together neither of them seemed to care much about it anymore.

[u/yoohynom → u/TeTeOtaku]

Of course Alpine would get mad at him for trying to destroy their chance at points in Monaco in a time that they scored once the whole season, only after that they started to prioritize Gasly. And the sabotage claims don't make sense when they executed the strategy he wanted in Brazil to get the podium

[u/JakubT117 → u/yoohynom]

Flavio is that you?

[u/yoohynom → u/JakubT117]

Yes, it's forbidden to have an opinion unbiased and not follow the "Alpine = bad" hive

[u/TeTeOtaku → u/[deleted]]

well you can still see him hang around with Alonso,they settled their differences pretty quick, but you never ever see him on the grid with Pierre

[u/EpicFIFABadger → u/[deleted]]

That last part definitely hasn't happened lol

[u/umbrella_CO]

I think every F1 team is healthier than Alpine. Get my boy Pierre to a decent team please.

[u/killer_blueskies]

He isn’t controlled every millimetre

[u/KrisReiss]

Remember Ocon's nemesis Bruno Famin once said, after the last year Monaco GP: "We need professional(s) for Ocon replacement"

LOL, they still are a bunch of ameteurs, and yeah, their managements are still living in high horse

[u/Cralido]

Exciting for Haas, good hires all around. It seems more streamlined, only team on grid started by and still owned by just one individual. Smaller staffed, at times having to fund out of pocket, but hung in there and survived. Now, with additional sponsors all eager to be in F1 and teams’ valuations thru roof, seems Gene is comfortable with hiring the best available and simply letting them work with autonomy and empowerment. On the other hand, Alpine a much bigger outfit but is just a mess up and down the entire organization. Sometimes smaller, streamlined orgs struggle against bigger wealthier competition but by comparison in this case, it seems to be an advantage across the org’s entire ethos. Rooting them on and wishing for the best!

[u/hallen2002]

Of course they are, Toyota is buying them in the future!

[u/CobaltOne]

Mate, everyone believes that ANY team is healthier than Alpine.

[u/OutlandishnessNo7300]

Because he believes Alpine is very, very sick. Thank you for your attention to this matter

[u/Own_Welder_2821 → u/OutlandishnessNo7300]

What Alpine needs now is some tender loving medication.

[u/John-de-Q]

Good to see they've come far from Guenther Steiner's toxic attitude.

[u/Abdullah-Alturki]

"why home is healthier than hell"

[u/freedfg]

I don't think you need to believe that.

It's true.

[u/black-dude-on-reddit]

On top of Alpine deciding to go full French Revolution with their management and Flavio back in peak form I can see why he’s enjoying Haas

Also kind of crazy he and Gasly were able to perform decently well considering the environment he was in.

[u/Rivendel93]

I'd have to imagine so, Alpine seems a bit like a mess. Flavio just seems like an unstable figure, I wouldn't care if he could bring results if your drivers and team feel scared to be honest with their leader.

[u/Old-Use-7690 → u/Rivendel93]

And it's not like he brings results to begin with...

[u/Nick_YDG]

I think every team on the grid is less toxic than Alpine.

[u/Zipa7]

Did he point vaguely towards Flavio? That alone proves his point.

[u/Novae224]

Yeah, thats not surprising at all.

Briatore is just a horrible person and the way he treats his drivers (and probably other employees) is just not okay.

[u/willij44]

No one is gonna argue with him on that, no, actually, he doesn't even have to say anything. Except blind people, anyone can see that's the case.

[u/SlapThatAce]

After dumping Steiner (holy shit I can't believe he hung on for as long as he did) Haas looks and runs like a professional outfit. Alpine on the other hand is in absolute disarray.

Komatsu is probably on various teams radar, so who knows how long Haas will be able to keep him.

[u/Lazy-Ad5380 → u/SlapThatAce]

In total fairness to Steiner, the financial structure of Haas is radically different now than when focksmash first started. Now Haas can actually spend enough to bring an upgrade.

[u/Holofluxx]

I mean while that's not exactly a high bar to beat, true

[u/mightygar]

Bring back Jack Doohan

[u/yoohynom → u/mightygar]

He already had 7 more races than he deserved

[u/mightygar → u/yoohynom]

Who would you have put in his place

[u/yoohynom → u/mightygar]

Bottas or Perez who were free at the time or Paul Aron. Even Colapinto is being closer to Gasly on average than Doohan was, so him also

[u/mightygar → u/yoohynom]

That is one of the worst takes I've ever heard on here. Good luck with your Team Principal aspirations, you will need it.

[u/yoohynom → u/mightygar]

It's better to put a rookie who can't stop crashing and showed nothing lmao

[u/SubcooledBoiling]

Less French bs. I’m not even kidding. I think it was Alain Prost who told another driver he shouldn’t learn french so that he wouldn’t understand what the engineers and team members were saying and could stay clear from the bs.

[u/AntheaBrainhooke → u/SubcooledBoiling]

In this case the source of the BS is Italian.

[u/tcs36 → u/SubcooledBoiling]

Very few french people at Alpine

[u/FeherDenes]

Is that really something that has to be explained?

[u/croth4]

There is genuinely a zero percent chance that Haas isn't healthier than Alpine 

[u/PlasticAd8465]

It is...its not french company...coming from someone who works for French company as non-french :D

[u/SneezingPandaGG]

It doesnt have Briatore.

[u/shewy92]

Here's one reason

[u/imustrun580]

No one is doubting this.

[u/DankeSebVettel]

Imagine saying this a few years ago

[u/SpittingCoffeeOTG]

I believe that as well :D

[u/ArchonTuna]

My garbage can is a healthier place

[u/haldouglas]

Elvis in his last days was healthier than Alpine.

[u/SFishes12]

For starters, it’s not Alpine

[u/roguesmoo]

Surely the answer is just 'cos its not alpine'?

[u/bcnjake]

Where does Ottmar go for his apology?

[u/Amat-Victoria-Curam]

Because it's his current team.

[u/Late-Button-6559]

DJT’s sexual preferences are healthier than Alpine.

[u/GainPotential]

For one, they aren't Fr*nch so that's always a plus

[u/Admirable_Green_1585 → u/GainPotential]

alpine is french mostly by name engine and gasly everything else isn't, so that's not really true is it

[u/Its4MeitSnot4U]

2025 Alpine is a dumpster fire 🔥 They make 2023 Haas look like winners!

[u/URZ_]

Why is this article is written as if Ocon choose Haas over Alpine, which was most definitely not the case lol

I mean, Im glad he recognizes the problems at Alpine we have all been seeing for years, but that ain't why he isn't driving the Alpine now... In fact, nobody probably benefitted more than Ocon from the broken culture at Alpine, he seemed to know how to take advantage of it every step of the way. Or atleast until Famin had enough of his constant fights with teammates

[u/Paukwa-Pakawa → u/URZ_]

Why is this article is written as if Ocon choose Haas over Alpine

Because he did. He was acticely looking to leave Alpine for months. This wasn't even a secret.

[u/URZ_ → u/Paukwa-Pakawa]

He left Alpine because Famin didn't want to renew him and very publicly stated as much shortly after the Monaco incident with Gasly. Alpine didn't want Ocon for 2025, he was never in a position to choose between Alpine and Haas. Or Alpine or any other team.

Ocon being interested in going to another team might very well be true, indeed he would be silly not to be, but the choice was made for him.

[u/reyderey → u/URZ_]

You take it in the wrong order, Ocon was looking elsewhere as early as the summer of 2023. When Famin announce they would not renew him, Ocon had probably decided since a long time he would not renew anyway, and Alpine just used Monaco to turn it their way

[u/fordern997 → u/reyderey]

I'm not sure about summer 2023, but there were several reports from Autumn 2023 about serious talks between Ocon and Audi, as they approached him when they were looking for "what if Sainz wont sign with us" option. That was reasonable, because Sainz indeed didnt sign with them, but neither did Ocon, who was interested at first, but refused with the same reason as Sainz - Hinwil infrastructure looked fairly outdated, and seemed like it required years of investment to provide good chance for 2026 and onwards. 

There is already a case with Aston Martin, which already spent plenty of money in their infrastructure, but the results still aren't there - best they could do so far was to copy Red Bull and dont know how to improve it. They at least were openly speaking that they target 2026 with that. 

With Audi, they had clear drivers preference order - Sainz, then Ocon, then Gasly, then maybe Perez if he will be available. Now with Bortoleto, that second seat seems to be closed for him. 

With Ocon and Haas, I think they started some talks in late 2023, but didn't get serious until I think April? 2024 - still before Monaco, that's for sure. I'm not sure how serious he was with Williams, I believe there were reports that Vowles didnt really want to hire Ocon. On the other hand, Ocon didnt really give a sign that he want to sign with them either, so possibly it was all Toto Wolff idea, with neither party really interested in it. 

[u/reyderey → u/fordern997]

I don't know how close he got with Williams, but he did visit Williams HQ and according to rumors, was in talks to be the one to replace Sargeant mid-season but it didn't happen because Apline refused to release him.

As for what I said about the summer 2023, I'm pretty sure Ocon said in a ITW that's when he started talking with Haas

[u/fordern997 → u/reyderey]

Yeah, but again - I strongly believe it was Toto who was pushing Ocon towards Williams. Vowles didnt like the idea of getting Ocon, neither for full time job (earlier, before signing Sainz - for a long time Williams was sure Sainz will go to Audi), nor for the half season Sargeant replacement, as he already had an agreement with Sainz. Ocon wanted to get out of Alpine as early as possible, so he might have consider that option, but he was also already under contract with Haas for 2025, so I think Alpine "helped him" by blocking that move to Williams.

[u/reyderey → u/fordern997]

Had he already signed with Haas when he visited Williams? I can't remember. If that was the case, you're right it wasn't a good idea to go to a team for just 6 months before going elsewhere, even if for him mentally, anything would have probably been better than staying with Alpine

Tbh, I remember being quite surprised by the rumors of Williams offering him a contract because at the time, the talks where that he would sign either with Sauber or with Haas

[u/fordern997 → u/reyderey]

I'm pretty sure every puzzle was in place, just not announced. Haas announced signing Ocon on July 25th, Williams announced signing Sainz on July 29th, and the earliest report about "Ocon replacing Sargeant deal being blocked by Alpine" I was able to find quickly was from 18th July.

There already were rumors that both contracts were signed in May/early June, Sainz was supposed to be announced on Spanish GP weekend, but due to unknown circumstances (possibly deal not closed yet) it was postponed. 

[u/reyderey → u/fordern997]

I just looked, Ocon visited Williams before Silverstone, so late June/early July. I guess they had been talking for at least a few weeks before, so I guess early June. Maybe that why both Ocon and Sainz annoucements were postponed

[u/URZ_ → u/reyderey]

Was looking yes, did not get a single offer til way after Alpine dropped him. Keep moving the goalpost, now it's enough he had talks with other teams? Every driver has that, you will not find a single source for Ocon being unwilling to renew.