r/godofhighschool • u/One-Statistician-554 • May 30 '25
Discussion Jin mori vs shinra bansho
Pre-nirvana SSJ3
Nirvana mori
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u/Massive-Comfort-3507 May 30 '25
I'll say shinra, while both are pretty similar shinras creation power doesn't seem to follow any form of rules or laws. If shinras wanted it he could have made so up is down and down is up. Or that red color is now black.
Moris seems to strictly follow the Buddhism form of power system and that's more strict compared to shinras imagination creation powers
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u/MoneyBear1733 May 31 '25
Uhh. Maybe if you took JTTW and made everything supersaiyan.
It's definitely parallel, but it's also in shounen form.
"Creation of all things" scales very high.
Mori is waaaaay underestimated because he doesn't have any feats post epilogue where he's the strongest.
He is 100% a reality warper as well. Creation of all things' only limitation is not being able to res the dead, unless you're the supreme god where there is no limitations.
Arguing straight feats, shinra wins. But if GoH extended past the epilogue, guaranteed mori would scale higher than he does now.
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u/Tyronedj4 May 31 '25
Which mori is the supreme god infact I think he mentions being able to fix everything and revive everyone but doesn't wanna affect the mortal world cause they would rely on him to much
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u/MoneyBear1733 May 31 '25
Yeah, he just kinda fucks off to go battle monsters forever because he chose to stay in the physical realm and become the supreme god.
He's baseline Uni+
"After finishing the battle, Mori has reached Nirvana (Heaven) and Xuanzang who also reached Nirvana gave him 2 options. The first is to become a true God, however, by choosing this, he must cut all ties to the world and oversee all of creation, as well as bring balance to the universe as a spirit from heaven. The second is to stay in the world but lose all his powers and be in endless battles against enemies as a result of his fight with Mubong. Mori chose both, to become an almighty being (Buddha) and to live a happy life in the world, Xuanzang accepted his choice."
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u/TalkLost6874 May 30 '25
Without Nirvana this is closer but only depending on how you view shinras power.
Some ppl have him as a transcendent being due to being above Adolla
Some ppl think he's universal+ for to being able to rewrite their world multiple times.
As for Mori, he doesn't have Nirvana here but he's still a supreme god level character like tathagatha and mubong.
So it really depends on your interpretation of BOTH characters.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
I've made 2 rounds. Also, the fire force verse follows the theory of relativity, so basically, by going, the LS-FTL shinra is capable of moving through time
I think it's extremely close between the 2 and would come to h2h, and we know mori will definitely take that
I think he would take it in a high-diff fight
Pre-nirvana
Nirvana
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u/TalkLost6874 May 30 '25
I see.
In that case, Nirvana Mori I would obviously have above even highballed shinrabanshoman.
Infact, imo you need those with amalashiki to fight him, so think god tier sanity seiya characters like Hades.
You're right in that Mori is better in h2h, cos that is half his identity.
Shinra can move through time but how exactly would that work in a battle between these 2 is hard to understand.
Mori, in ss3, should be immune to layered time manipulation by his alternative self, and he has a multiversal consciousness that extends to other timelines. But I really can't make sense of how they would interact.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
In that case, Nirvana Mori, I would obviously have above even highballed shinrabanshoman.
Yeah, he would take it in a highly diff fight
In fact, imo you need those with amalashiki to fight him
Any 9th sense users is pretty much above the Karmic cycle and can come from existence erasure on all 3 planes of existence
Even seiya, before reaching that, was capable of surviving hades' sword
This is highly impressive because hades sword can BFR people out of space-time, in a void out of the cycle of reincarnation
Basically, complete Annihilation. Not to mention that it gives U the power to return everything into nothingness
So think god tier sanity seiya characters like Hades.
No, hades is absolutely too much for either GOH or the fire force verse
You're right in that Mori is better in h2h, cos that is half his identity.
Yeah, Mori is insane, but it sadden me that people sleep on taejin
He is the one who taught mori everything about martial arts, but people forgot about him because he is overshadowed by his grandson
Hell, even when mubong became the Supreme God, he kept on mentioning that mori has stepped into taejin domain
Shinra can move through time, but how exactly would that work in a battle between these 2 be hard to understand.
Honestly, that's what I was wondering about. Both of them have control over space-time
Speed is irrelevant to the 2.
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u/TalkLost6874 May 30 '25
Correct, which is why I think you need the god tiers of saint seiya to deal with him. I don't even think Shaka can do it.
Hades is one of the gods, any character relevant to him would be able to do the same.
Also he's a 5d being as well, a transcendent one. It's a fight, probably favoring Hades but he is not having an easy time vs a Nirvana character.
Yeah, Mori is insane, but it sadden me that people sleep on taejin
The guy who while fully human managed to hurt Odin? That guy is being slept on? The next god of war candidate?
Taejin with better physical stats would be nearly god tier in the verse, his human limitations are just too constricting.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 31 '25
Nah, shaka would beat them, Arayashiki would cover him, and he has the durablity and the AP to take both of them
8 sense basically let U become 1 with the main component of the world, which goes beyond space-time
Allow U to travel between dimensions, trancends death, defying the laws of the underworld
Meaning, your very soul gains independence, layers of consciousness that let's U trancends dimensions, space-time
Understand the flow of Karma, and go beyond life-death ,trancends the laws of physics.....etc
As for his AP
Even mid tier gold saint like Mu has shown to be capable of erasing a dimension that was created by Lapetos
The Dunamis allows the gods/ titans to expand the universe infinitly
Shaka himself has shown to fight against saga, a ch that can dish out galaxy busting attacks
During his clash against shijima, they were destroying universes , shaka created them, and shijima was destroying them
Death mask a saint that's scales far below shaka, can destroy near 20 billion souls in one single shot
So destroying souls, mind, and body is smth even a fodder gold saint can do
As for speed, even 7th sense seiya, who was weaker than shaka at that point, managed to dodge 100 million punch from Leo
I could go and explain further more, but since U seemed to have knowledge on the verse, that won't be necessary.
I think someone like dark or uriel from ( bastard) would be capable of clearing GOH in a tough battle.
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u/TalkLost6874 May 30 '25
I know that Shaka has arayashiki but I don't think that's enough. He still does not transcend entire timelines as flat objects to be manipulated at will.
Mori is also free from the constraints of creation and can mold it at will.
Understanding the karmic cycle is not enough, they have to be completely above it. Even tathagatha controls the karmic cycle.
You don't need to convince me of shakas AP, I already know he's a monster.
Both series have insane speed feats, but they matter less here cos Mori is effectively omnipresent. By his existence I mean.
Shakas fight with his master was also pretty insane.
I heavily disagree with the bastard comment tho.
I don't think Uriel has what it takes. He's too slow and bound by too many things. I don't even think his eternal atoms can save him from being erased from all planes of existence.
What prohibits Mori or even mubong to just warp those conditions out of existence? "Like eternal atoms song function anymore" type shii.
And bastard characters mostly rely in insane hax and not being able to be killed. Here their hax isn't doing much and we can debate if they can be killed or not.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 31 '25
I know that Shaka has arayashiki, but I don't think that's enough. He still does not transcend entire timelines as flat objects to be manipulated at will.
So I've Re-read the last 50 ch on the series yesterday, and from what I've seen, mori was just at a place where all of time overlapped
Mori is also free from the constraints of creation and can mold it at will.
If he had gone with his girl, yes, but he didn't. He wanted to finish his business, and he didn't just want to be all powerful but also free
He wanted to be all of those things.
Understanding the karmic cycle is not enough. They have to be completely above it. Even tathagatha controls the karmic cycle.
8th sense offers protection against the laws of the underworld, a realm beyond space-time
:You don't need to convince me of shakas AP, I already know he's a monster.
Figured out much, I just didn't know how much info U have on the verse, so I just named up a few of their feats
What's UR top 10 strongest saint in the verse? Same for the gods / titans ?
Both series have insane speed feats
That they do, honestly, if U would ask me. Speed is irrelevant when it comes to either of them
but they matter less here cos Mori is effectively omnipresent. By his existence, I mean.
How is he omnipresent? When at the end of the series, mori himself stated that it would take a lifetime to fix the universe
We know that during his clash against mubong m, they wreaked the universe, and it was filled with cracks in space
Hell, their battle caused the universe to somehow expand infinitely
Shakas' fight with his master was also pretty insane.
Yeah, it was pretty cool
I heavily disagree with the bastard comment, tho.
Hmm
I don't think Uriel has what it takes. He's too slow and bound by too many things. I don't even think his eternal atoms can save him from being erased from all planes of existence.
Okay, Uriel scales far above the rest of the angels, who have shown LS-FTL+ speed in combat, and MFTL++ in travel
During his battle with dark, both of them were growing hundreds to thousands of times
Their clash managed to destroy the black abyss, a black hole that has the mass of 50 million suns
They also destroyed the dimensional walls of hell. was stated that U will need a big bang level of power for that
Though TBH, the dimensional wall, was weakened, still at bare minimum a Multi-galaxy+++ lvl feat
They were throwing thousands of attacks casually, and both have shown resistance towards getting erased on 3 planes of existence
Not to mention their shields, which protect them from pretty much anything
Reality wrapper, time hax....etc, and they have like a million of them, and they regenerate at LS-FTL speeds
Not to mention that Adam of darkness was hyped to be around the same level as Satan and possibly God
So their is that.
What prohibits Mori or even mubong from just warp those conditions out of existence? "Like eternal atoms song function anymore" type shii.
dispel bound & eternal atoms = GG
And bastard characters mostly rely on insane hax and not being able to be killed. Here, their hax isn't doing much, and we can debate if they can be killed or not.
I'm not trying to argue that mori can't put down uriel or smth like that. It's just that he needs to break through his shields
And that's not an easy task, as they regen at LS-FTL, adding their reactive power level and their eternal atoms
Makes dealing with them to be an extremely difficult task
And I've addressed their AP. Also, don't forget about as judas priest
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u/MoneyBear1733 Jun 01 '25
How is he omnipresent? When at the end of the series, mori himself stated that it would take a lifetime to fix the universe
We know that during his clash against mubong m, they wreaked the universe, and it was filled with cracks in space
Hell, their battle caused the universe to somehow expand infinitely
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u/MoneyBear1733 Jun 01 '25
IIRC there's a scene of Mori looking at the entire timeline as a series of books that he could interact with.
I'm pretty sure he just exists outside of time, so any time shenanigans are probably nullified.
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Saga has statements of being able to destroy the galaxy but you can easily take that as DC and not AP. 99% of Golds dont have attacks with crazy range and Saga being able to destroy galaxies by having galaxy level range wouldnât go against him being big bang level which golds are stated to be multiple times.
Shaka purposely let himself die to AE and he forced them to use it. That fight really canât be used for any scaling for pretty much anyone
All infinite timelines were created by the Big Bang and universes are still constantly and infinitely being created via MWI as stated in LC. The Gods have never created any universes outside of their own realms like the Titan universes that reside in Tartarus, the Underworld etc etc. The gods dont directly create universes in the same way the Big Bang created universes.
And yes dunamis can make the world expand infinitely and creates the forms of the universe which we are later on told that the Primordials created the all the matter in the universe(s) down to itâs atoms and not the universe itself.
AE being universal AP gets debunked by the fact that it can vary in power depending on whoâs using it and the fact that it created infinite timelines which makes it Multiversal+. Saying itâs anywhere below Multiversal+ when itâs said/implied multiple times in different series and even said by the author is just ignoring the manga honestly
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Idk, man. If U think the gold saint R multiversal, that's cool
But for me, only character in the verse that U can arguably consider a multiversal threat would be coronus
BTW if U would've to rank the top 10 strongest saint in the entire franchise, who would be on UR list ?
Mind giving out Your top 10 strongest saint ? And then UR top 10 strongest characters in the verse.
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Gold Saints
- Kronos fight Aiolia
- Shura
- G Requiem Shiryu
- GR Ikki
- GR Seiyaâs
- Anti Pope Aiolos(if you consider him a Saint)
- lost world Camus
- Lost world mu
- GA/GR Hyoga
- GA/GR Shun
When GR comes out with more chapters, Hyoga and Shun will be higher
Characters wise:
- Gaia
- Uranus(in the future)
- Kronos
- Typhon 5.Zeus
- Apollo 7.Hades 8.Athena 9.Poseidon 10.Brontes(can likely scale higher since he has better feats than the few above him)
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
Kronos fight Aiolia : What sort of feats has he shown that put him above shura ?
- G Requiem Shiryu : Honestly, I would put Ikki above, considering what he did to zeus-Aiolia
Though I agree with the rest đ
10.Brontes(can likely scale higher since he has better feats than the few above him)
Shouldn't he be above poseidon and Athena? What about these guys ( loki / saturn / lucifer) , Where would U put them ?
And U forgot about ( Pontos ) !
BTW, what U think of brontes attacks ?
I remember shura has to activate his 9th sense and use his speed mode for them
Also, seiya stated that his attacks were multiplied. Infinitely
Even shura stated the same thing, so what U think ?
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Kronos was in his true body with his full dunamis and his full power and he absorbed the hour glass so he was at the strongest heâs ever been, even stronger than when he fought Zeus in the Titanomachy
For Shiryu and Ikki, Metis likely scales higher than Pontos given he bows and kneels to her and sees all the Primordials as superior Gods and Ikki extreme diffed Pontos and Shiryu basically low diffed Metis.
Athena is a higher ranking God than Brontes(kinda since heâs just a human as well) but im going off of a full powered Athena who should be able to contend with Primordial Gods and top tier Olympians
And Pontos would have been up there but his showings are pretty underwhelming to everyone on the list and heâs likely in the mid-tier to top mid-tier Olympian Range given he should scale to Olympians and Titans(outside of the top tier ones)
And yeah Brontes is OP asf. He can multiply attack infinitely and do a bunch of things and I feel like we truly havenât seen him go all out like itâs implied. In the future itâs kinda hinted that he would fight Ikki but maybe heâs just gonna be offscreened in some way
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Kronos was in his true body with his full dunamis and his full power and he absorbed the hour glass so he was at the strongest heâs ever been, even stronger than when he fought Zeus in the Titanomachy
Fair enough, I'm currently trying to Re-read the entire series. Actually
I will start with lost canvas.
For Shiryu and Ikki, Metis likely scales higher than Pontos given he bows and kneels to her and sees all the Primordials as superior Gods and Ikki extreme diff PontosShiryu basically low diffed Metis.
Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ikki showing against Zeus-Aiolia put him above the 2 ? I mean, he pretty much low-diff him
And Pontos would have been up there but his showings are pretty underwhelming to everyone on the list and heâs likely in the mid-tier to top mid-tier Olympian Range given he should scale to Olympians and Titans(outside of the top tier ones)
Yeah, unfortunately, we didn't see much from him
BTW, where would U put these guys ?
( loki / saturn / lucifer )
And yeah, Brontes is OP asf. He can multiply attack infinitely and do a bunch of things, and I feel like we truly havenât seen him go all out like itâs implied. In the future itâs kinda hinted that he would fight Ikki, but maybe heâs just gonna be offscreened in some way
Yeah, he is insanely powerful. Btw how can a saint achieve the 10th sense ? I remember seiya helping out shura to achieve it
But do we have any more info on how it works ?
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Yeah I was planning on rereading it all as well. Im not sure if you know but all of G(the first one) has been translated into English finally.
And Zeusolia doesnt really have any feats putting him above Pontos or Metis so nah.
Tbh, Loki is probably around the same level as the Twins. Saturn is likely the strongest God in the anime(not counting movies besides Overture) and I never watched the Lucifer movie yet but he would be above like 97% of the Olympians based on what I heard
And so far we still have nothing đ Seiya helped Shura get it and now Shura can activate it on his own but we still have no idea what it is or how one achieves it. I feel like weâll get info on it next time Shura comes back into the timeline since thst was foreshadowed and whoever he faces will probably explain more on it if Shura himself doesnt
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Yeah, I was planning on rereading it all as well. Im not sure if you know, but all of G(the first one) has been translated into English finally.
LMFAO, about god damn time, btw not I remember, but wasn't Leo amped when he went against Kronos ?
Also, in what order UR going to start ?
And Zeusolia doesn't really have any feats putting him above Pontos or Metis so nah..
TBH, he has better feats than pontos
Tbh, Loki is probably around the same level as the Twins. Saturn is likely the strongest God in the anime(not counting movies besides Overture), and I never watched the Lucifer movie yet, but he would be above like 97% of the Olympians based on what I heard
Well, lucy basically has the Cosmo of Poseidon, Eris, and Abel, and of course, his own cosmos. He was shown to be completely superior to them when he used his own cosmos
Adding all of them to his own, arguably, he is probably among the top of the verse
And so far, we still have nothing đ Seiya helped Shura get it, and now Shura can activate it on his own, but we still have no idea what it is or how one achieves it. I feel like weâll get info on it next time Shura comes back into the timeline since that was foreshadowed, and whoever he faces will probably explain more on it if Shura himself doesnt
Hopefully
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Yeah he was extremely amped which is the only reason why he could contend with Kronos tbhđ but yeah itâs finally fully translated
I normally to Classic-ND-Sho-G-GA-GR and fit other series like RoP, DW, Mariya and LC somewhere between or after those.
You can probably say he does, it really just depends on if you think Pontos would be able to beat him which I think he would probably destroy Zeusolia
And yeah I heard Lucifer was OP asf, I never heard of how he died though im sure it was by Sag Seiya with the arrow because he somehow becomes infinitely OP doing thatđ
Also btw me and some people have a Saint seiya discord server and a couple translators are in it and they pretty much translate/translated a good amount of the content to English for the past years. We talk about other things ofc and other verses as well but it mainly started out as a Saint seiya server. If youâd like to join i can send you an invite in messages
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u/memeater99 May 30 '25
Shinra gets mopped up too many people think ârewriting deathâ scales him anywhere crazy when he doesnât even change much (actually read soul eater as well). Mori has nirvana and even without it slams
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u/Penelokk Jun 16 '25
I think it's more so that Shinra banshoman scales above the concept of death itself. Since both of their peak forms scale above concepts and ideas, it's safe to say that we don't really know who's stronger.
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u/memeater99 Jun 16 '25
Death as a concept doesnât really hold any weight because it doesnât have a platonic ideal or a perfect form.
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u/Penelokk Jun 16 '25
Wdym
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u/memeater99 Jun 18 '25
Ok to simplify, concepts donât always mean anything. For example if I said a character scales above the concept of paper, it wouldnât mean anything because paper as a concept doesnât mean much. This applies to a lot of damn concepts. What makes a concept relevant is its relation to a perfect form. Perfect forms are metaphysical immutable and infallible versions of that thing. Because metaphysical things are not bound by time and space, to manipulate them you must qualitatively transcend time and space also (you canât manipulate something outside a box while still being in that box. In this case the box is the infinite hierarchy of dimensions). Death, doesnât have a perfect form. Itâs simply the idea of cessation. There are arguments that death as part of a duality, in which case shinra could be argued as transdual type 1 or 2 (really doesnât matter to Mori who is the highest level of transdual). Transduality only scales well if itâs the higher levels as they imply transcending other types of concepts
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u/GrandBobcat5170 May 31 '25
Mori wins, i feel like we're forgetting he's an omnipresent , all powerful god when he choses to be
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u/OrdinaryPassenger881 May 31 '25
AS A WISE PERSON ONCE SAID "IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW YOU SCALE HIS NIRVANA".
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u/AkaiShi777 May 30 '25
Jin faster I think
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Nah, both have comparable speed
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u/AkaiShi777 May 30 '25
I think pre nirvana Mori loses but post one is kind of close but idk where Shinra scales in speed
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u/DaBomb1910 May 30 '25
Literally goes faster than the speed of light when at his peak
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u/ChestSlight8984 May 30 '25
That's so fodder đ
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Fire force verse follows the theory of relativity. By going LS-FTL, he can travel back and forth in time, actually
Speed is irrelevant to either of them, if U would ask me
Both have control over space-time, can casually move at LS, and fight at FTL-MFTL
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u/DaBomb1910 May 30 '25
He does though, he goes light speed and can travel back in time. Not saying that automatically wins it for him Im just pointing it out
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u/AkaiShi777 May 30 '25
Then Shinra should win, ( just curious where and why you scale his speed at)
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Mind giving out UR reasons? These 2 operate of the same tier
Who shinra ? Speed is irrelevant to either of them. Both of them can manipulate space-time, life-death.....etc
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u/AkaiShi777 May 30 '25
I'm asking u shinra's speed just tell as his best speed from what I remember is casually dodging a sol laser from haumea and I got Mori way above that
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
Yep, but U see, he was also capable of moving at lightspeed to the point he was he even to travel through time
But that cause the fire force verse follows the theory of relativity
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u/AkaiShi777 May 30 '25
Okay then ignoring speed, their hax are pretty similar so the fight would be like they would test out each other's hax and eventually lead to h2h as hax battle doesn't get them anywhere, in h2h Mori has a big edge as his martial arts are pinnacle and come as concepts hence at the end he could outdo shinra as shinra doesn't particularly has any style he just overpowers with kicks and punches nothing special there so a high diff for nirvana Mori (Mori also has better biq) it should be but then again it is crossverse so we can't be certain about how it plays out as one can think of many other possibilities.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Fair enough, I thought the exact same thing here, I think mori will boil down to h2h combat, and mori will definitely take it
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u/ImThatGuy_Real May 30 '25
Jin one taps
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
No, just no, this is an extremely close match
Shinra can manipulate time and reality. He literally created a god of death
No one is stomping anything here.
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u/venxomi May 30 '25
?? Mori literally governs all of creation. As in literally everything. Reality, Concepts, Time, literally everything.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Yeah, I know, but so does shinra. He has all of that
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u/venxomi May 30 '25
There's been debates of Mori vs Shinra before, the general consensus was that Shinra doesn't stand a chance. There's people in the subreddit who have participated in that discussion, maybe they'll find this post
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
I think this could go either way. Both of them have hax that can counter the other.
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u/MoneyBear1733 Jun 01 '25
This is technically "Mori Dan" ATP in the story, so his actual scaling entries are under the Dan tab in vsbattles, if that's where you're reading his feats from.
Check it out, You'll see why it's not really close at all.
It's like comparing Jesus to Literal God.
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u/Forsaken_6086 May 30 '25
Is that it? Manipulating time and reality won't cut it, as Jin can do more & is out of the timelines so that won't do a thing to him
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
How exactly that won't cut it ? When mubong was affecting him with the same thing
Both of them have similar hax and can pretty much counter everything the other guy has
Shinra can literally move through time. He literally created death and wrapped reality with his kicks
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u/hisroyalbonkess May 30 '25
Everything in the Mujin final fight is before Mori reaches Nirvana. He doesn't reach Heaven until the fight is over.
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
I know, that's why I made 2 rounds here, pre-nirvana and Nirvana mori
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u/hisroyalbonkess May 30 '25
Oh, that wasn't very clear to me in the post. Why have it separated like that? Also, why are you using the weaker, long haired Mori and not the one closer to Nirvana before Mori and Mujin have their final GoH bout? Long hair Mori doesn't have control over Space-time (unless he knows a spell we don't see), but he can bend the existing rules to his will, crossing dimensional bounds with centripetal force alone, and being able to repel light. I dropped Mid Force, but if my quick Google and Wiki search tells me anything, God Shinra, who has power over creation, would beat (but not easily) long gold haired Mori. Mori doesn't have the creation feats until he gets the Crimson Wings. It's not a very interesting match, IMO. If you had used the Mori in the point of time before he goes to Heaven, but after the Crimson Wings (specifically when everyone's prayers reach him near the end of Mujin's stability), I feel like you'd have much more room for ambiguity and interesting discussions for the people that know about FF.
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u/Forsaken_6086 May 30 '25
No, Mubong just happened to have the same type of power as Mori has, and Paradise Mori is way stronger than Nirvana Mori that Mubong fought.
Having similar hax doesn't mean the potency is the same. Mori has layered haxes, you will have to be more specific.
Cool. Mori is outside of timespace, Shinra moving through time doesn't mean he can interact with Mori. Death is already a thing in FF, Shinra just makes it a little tolerable, not the same.
Ok? What would that even change?
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u/carl-the-lama May 30 '25
Speed: basically the same to my knowledge
Strength: banshoman (able to recreate the world and concepts of it fully at will essentially)
Durability: who knows
Hax: prolly Mori but hard to say
Skill: prolly Mori?
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u/Ok-Selection-596 May 31 '25
Strength: banshoman (able to recreate the world and concepts of it fully at will essentially)
Didn't Mori hold an entire timeline?
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u/carl-the-lama May 31 '25
Yeah but concepts are a little fucky
Like conceptual ideas⌠abstract things
Weird dimensional stuff
Thatâs why itâs tricky
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u/Ok-Selection-596 May 31 '25
I mean.... Yeah, also I disagree with Skill probably going into Mori... It surely is to Mori. The guy is like One of the best skilled guy in fiction.
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u/carl-the-lama May 31 '25
True, though itâs hard to say how martial arts will factor in when time gets screwed
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u/ChestSlight8984 May 30 '25
Shinra's scaling is kinda all over the place from multiversal to outerversal. So it's really hard to agree on who would win this matchup.
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u/Oohhdatskam May 30 '25
I dont recall but I think Shinra only effected the earth. 302 says the earth multiple times not the universe. Granted this is only cause anything outside the earth isnt needed. Based on this ima say Mori Jin. He was effecting the universe, tossing planets, etc etc. Nothing Shinra showed can compete with that.
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u/ggkkggk May 30 '25
One has more limitations, and what they can create doesn't necessarily mean one is stronger than the other.
There's no guarantee the universe or laws or reality warping ability would affect either or.
If anyone here is up to date with Marvel stuff, it's like the Phoenix versus Scarlet Witch.
Lifer versus chaos.
Technically speaking, chaos seems stronger, but only because it goes against the rules, but it doesn't actually make it stronger.
Close match, doe. I'll give it to Jin only because only one is multiversal by the sake of his own abilities even before he became a primordial God.
Still close AF I can understand anything saying he would lose.
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u/LowerIndependent8324 Jun 05 '25
I wanna say shinra cause heâs a lot faster but if itâs equal stats I would say Jin mori
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u/Forsaken_6086 Jun 06 '25
Meh, FTL and being able to travel back in time cuz of the verse mechanic is not faster than casual MFTL+ before staying out of the timelines completely
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u/Infamous-Sir-6300 Jun 14 '25
I love both characters and series but Jin mori takes the win here. Not saying shinra is weak but Jin mori is just more powerful
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Tbh im surprised you have Saint seiya characters thst lowđ I depending on the installation, some scale differently.
And the thing with Bastard is that the author was contradicting his own statements left and right for absolutely no reason and it was so weirdđ But yeah the dispel bound is a broken defense man, it sucks ifs on hiatus too cuz he knows how OP they would have gotten especially with big fights around the corner too
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
They're not low. That's where they scales
Gold saint from solar system+++ to Multi-Galactic+++ for the top tiers
God clothes R straight-up universel+
A few rare saints like
( Leo regulus ) ( Anti-pope Aiolos) R comfortably above baseline universel++
( Shura ) is possibly the strongest saint in the verse, multi-universal++ lvl of power and MFTL++++ speed
( zeus-Aiolia) has shown to be capable of destroying the underworld with 1 lightning void , and he was shown to be a multiversal threat
G Assassin saints R pretty broken. Any saint who unlocked the 9th sense is universel++
As for dark schneider, Adam of darkness was hyped to be equal to God and Satan, so at bare minimum universel
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Nah they definitely scale much higher. Aiolia in G with the 6th sense and being 13 or 14 or whatever had a Photon Burst that was as strong as the Big Bang. And God Cloths outscale the Big Bang. The Big Bang technically has Multiversal+ scaling as well instead of being Uni-Uni+
And for the Zeusolia feat, he destroyed it but it was via a chain reaction so he didnât necessarily destroy it directly. And yeah pretty much almost every Saint in G Assassin is god cloth level or far beyond it
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
It took the combined effort of 3 saint to dish out universel AP
We have seen that multiple times over
solar system++ for the low tiers and Multi-Galactic++ for the top dogs like ( shaka / Leo / saga )
Like I've said earlier, only select saint like
( Leo regulus/ Anti-pope Aiolos / shura / ikki) R Universel++
And yeah, God's clothes, as I've stated, R definitely universel, as for zeus Aiolia feat, he was threatening the black core
If I remember correctly, it holds multiple universes/ realms/ futures from going through a gravitation collapse
Any saint that achieves the 9th sense, straight-up universel+
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
The thing is, Youre equating Athena Exclamation to simply big bang level and Universal when itâs not really like that. The lowest it can be is big bang level but AE is just the combined cosmo of 3 gold saints and AE varies in power, theyâre all not just big bang level. Which btw, BB level in the verse is basically Multiversal+ and not Universal like how most series are. So any character that scales to the BB or beyond it would be Multiversal+
And nah the black core was basically just a portal/connection leading to the underworld. The underworld was already collapsing and him destroying thr black core which was just the portal just threw all in a loop. One of the pages in GA says âchain destructionâ or âchain reactionâ, I forgot but itâs right after he destroyed the black core.
Like the verse really has solid Multiversal+ scaling for anybody thats big bang level and higher and the Underworld also has 5D scaling via LC but thats itâs own can and whether you consider it cross-scalable to the other mangas
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
No ? Just no, the closest thing to multiversal would be cronus and even that hax content behind it
The rest R pretty straightforward.
Now , as for the Black Core
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Itâs stated the Big Bang created the universe/macrocosmo and Next Dimension, Saintia Sho and G Requeim along with Okada(author of G) all consider the infinite multiverse and itâs many pasts and futures to be âthe universeâ. Even to the point where Okada himself says the multiverse forms âthe universeâ. The Universe is referred to all infinite parallel timelines and universes meaning the big bang created infinite timelines
And the black core is just a black hole that was connected to the Underworld and was used to summon saints from different points in time whether dead or alive. Aiolos pretty much explains it which is why when Zeusolia destroyed the black core, we get the statement of âchain destructionâ since although he didnt destroy the Underworld directly, he destroyed the black core that was connected to it which collapsed an already extremely unstable underworld
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25 edited May 30 '25
Nah, man, I get that, but no character in the verse is multiversal. Well, cronus is the closest thing to that, at least
Every time they go against a universal threat they would struggle, God clothes I can accept being universal+ and
But anything short of that, no, only the Olympians and titans R universal and above
Also, I thought the black core was preventing multiple dimensions/ futures from collapsing ?
Btw, on what site UR reading the series?
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
If the Big Bang created infinite timelines which is Multiversal+, why would people who are stronger or scale to it not be Multiversal+? Even Aiolia who was 13 in episode g has a statement of his attack being big bang level and Shion also has a statement of his cosmo being as strong as the Big Bang. The golden age novel says gold saints can destroy the universe and even one of the movies say gold saints have power on par with the Big Bang. Itâs narratively consistent for gold saints to have big bang level power so to have them below just goes against the narrative of the series. But still, the Big Bang is consistent Multiversal+ across 4 different manga and even confirmed by the author, itâs really undeniable that gold saints are universal at least and big bang level is multi+
I read the Classic, Sho and ND on weebcentral and the other mangas on Mangadex
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
I get that, but consistently even saga, who was pretty much the strongest saint, consistently has been stated to be around galaxy+ lvl, and he had like 1 universal statement
But we know that's just a hyperbole. shaka, a ch relative to Saga, almost died to an attack comparable to the big bang as U know
God clothes R universal, saints who have achieved the 9th sense R straight-up universel++
Gold saint R not.
We don't know how we got other universes. The Olympians or the Titans could've played a role in that
I mean, we know that through Dunamis, the titans and the gods can make the universe expand infinitely
That's the source of their powers, and that was proven by zeus-aiolia when he collapsed the underworld
His lighting void was superior to Athena exclamation
9th users > Athen exclamation = Universel AP
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u/melooksatstuff May 30 '25
Probably shinra
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Why ? Mind giving out UR reasons? Also, there are 2 rounds
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u/OriginalBarber117 May 30 '25
He can alter reality itself with his thoughts alone other than that is pretty even I'd say
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Mori can do the same thing ? He has power over life-death
He has shown to be capable of wrapping space-time and affecting conceptual weapons
Honestly, I can't decide who will come out on top between the 2, lol
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u/OriginalBarber117 May 30 '25
Yes but shinrabanshoman goes past warping space time, he actually altered the laws of reality to reshape the universe into what he wanted it to be however if jaechongdaesong, can't spell ts, does have power over life and death then yes it's a very even fight because that would put all their actually on par with each other imo
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
What conceptual weapons did he affect?
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
The holy spear that mubong made when he clashed against the final Yeoui
Both of them got destroyed. The final Yeoui is a conceptual weapon composed of every weapon in the verse.
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
What makes that Yeoui conceptual?
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Well, considering that it is a conceptual weapon composed of every weapon in the verse, and had hax such as law manip, probability manip, space-time manip, subatomic manip...etc
And that it being Samsara itself.
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u/Swimming-Afternoon14 May 30 '25
Well itâs not conceptual for it being made of every weapon in the verse. And I donât know why people think itâs the actual Samsara in the verse, Mori just called it Samsara. The weapons in the verse didnt just merge together and magically transform into the literal samsara, that is so illogical. The samsara still exists
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
Idk man , been a long time since I've finished the series
But, the Karmic cycle is implemented by manipulating the concept of Karma and establishing it as law across the entire universe
As the Supreme God Mori used the final the final Yeoui after he composed of every weapon in the verse
And called it sammrsa, I think it represents it. At least, otherwise, it wouldn't have affected mubong
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u/Gullible-Treacle-288 May 30 '25
Hate cosmology scaling but shinra was portrayed as omnipotent and all powerful even compared to the other âgodâ of his verse, Jin mori never seemed like he was all powerful, the strongest for sure but somewhat tangibly so
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u/One-Statistician-554 May 30 '25
He is not omnipotent. He is just a powerful reality wrapper that has control over life-death, space-time
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u/90bubbel May 30 '25
i love both of the series but i would say shinra, shrinra literally changed the very concept of death itself