r/guitarlessons • u/dchurch2444 • 1d ago
Question New student, not willing to take steps to achieve his goal.
As per the title, I have a new student that started with me a few weeks back.
He can play some basic chords and was clearly not too bad...many years ago. He's very rusty and holds the guitar in a way that is likely to end with a carpel tunnel op.
He wants to learn an incredibly complex piece of classical music. I'm fine with that, I learned the piece and it's a nice bit of music.
I put together some exercises that will help him achieve this, some are a little basic from where he used to be some years ago, but they go some way to correcting his hold and reacquainting him with some chords and fingerstyle techniques.
He phoned me at the weekend to say he doesn't want to do the exercises and just wants to learn the piece of music.
With all respect due, he's miles away from being able to play this piece, and I told him that as diplomatically as I could, but he's insisting that's what we work on.
I fear that if I were to actually do this, he'll damage himself, first and foremost, and secondly, will become dissapointed and dissolutioned when he finds he can't play it.
I mean, I've been playing 40 years, and it took me over an hour to get it right. This is not something that's going to be an easy win.
What do I do here?
In the past, students have asked for similar but have all understood their limitations and the reasoning of the exercises produced by me to get them to that goal.
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u/Which-Course-7926 1d ago
Why not try part of the song. And then sneak in your exercices gradually when you both see the difficulties. Then' he'll realize the use of the exercices
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u/dchurch2444 1d ago
That was my plan, and I explained that to him. I've transposed the first part, and gave him exercises to help get to that.
I once had a student who would complain that her fingers still hurt after a few weeks. When I asked if she'd been practicing she said she hadn't touched the guitar since the precious week's lesson. Then complained that she felt she wasn't making any progress.
I told her I was a guitar tutor, not a wizard.
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u/ludwigvan99 1d ago
I’ve sometimes used the image of an iceberg to illustrate how time needs to be spent in and out of lessons. The time with the instructor is the part you see above the waterline; the overwhelming majority is the time spent practicing on your own.
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u/cangetenough 1d ago
The exercises should come from the song. For example, I'm learning the Bach Cello suite #1 (on cello) through a book called "The Bach Cello Suite No. 1 Study Book for Cello". The exercises are not original or unique. They're derived from the music.
You need to show him that the exercises come directly from the music in some fashion.
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u/SylimMetal 1d ago
Teacher here. If I was in the situation, I'd teach him the piece and introduce corrections and technique practices along the way. And if he realizes it's still outside his wheelhouse, he either pulls himself together and does the necessary work or he'll stop. That choice is his. I can only show students how things are done, but I can't do the work for them.
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u/AudieCowboy 1d ago
Be very blunt about how he's hurting himself. Take the easiest part of the piece, slow it down to somewhere he could almost manage, and walk him through it. Show him how its a small part of the big puzzle and tell him, if he wants to continue, bit by bit learning it, and struggling, that he can, or if he works on the exercises and the stepping stones, he'll be able to play it a lot sooner
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u/Alternative_Ant_7440 1d ago
Former educator weighing in.
You cannot make a student do anything, as you know. If they are not motivated to do the work, progress will be slow.
Of course, you can still have the piece be the focus for all of your lessons together. Eventually, they will learn some version of it. But it will take much longer.
As long as your student understands (and whoever is paying for the lessons), then get after it without any stress on your part. It's really up to the student to decide how they want to do it, and if they are fine with it taking months to put together then so be it.
I am also a very novice guitar player, with long stretches of time between intense practice, and I am reminded every time when my fingertips are sore how dumb that is (taking so much time between learning/practice). Maybe I will learn one day, and maybe your student will, too.
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u/Paint-Rain 1d ago
Just keep doing your best for student and be a positive caring person. Maybe it seems obvious that the exercises will jumpstart his techniques but if it takes months the realize that- that’s part of learning. I started pretty young and listened well (people often said I was emotionally mature and receptive as a kid) but when I look back- how I do things is way more patient and methodical than I could ever have been as a kid/teen.
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u/Clear-Pear2267 1d ago
Can you not base exercises on segments of the song where each segment is helping with a specific learning goal? Don't even call them exercises - just say "OK - we'll learn the song you want in setions. Here is section 1" and go from there. I see one of two things happening:
- It works. He learns his song and he develops technique and knowledge through the learning.
- It is not working and he ends up convincing himself (instead of you telling him) that he has to focus on some fundamentals before tacking the more complex stuff.
I suppose the 3rd possibility is he gives up.
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u/deeppurpleking 1d ago
Teach to the students goals, when they trip up because of bad technique, show them how to do it better. Some people you can get ahead of that, some people have to fail to learn a lesson
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u/imitation_squash_pro 1d ago
I have seen too many teachers who only can see things from their side. From your side to play it "correctly" will take thousands of hours of practice for him. But his definition of "correctly" is very different than yours. Probably all he wants is to get the basic tune to sound half-decent. Something that can be accomplished by simplifying and shortening the piece to the main riffs.
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u/shadman19922 1d ago
Just tell him to eff off and do something else if getting better at the guitar is such a chore for him. Don't mean to come off as rude, but it's another example of people completely underestimating the time and effort to get better at (any) instrument. Your student seems like the idea of getting better at guitar, but not the idea of actually putting the work in.
You seem like a good teacher who cares about students getting better. If a particular student brings you no joy, time to cut him off and leave the spot for someone else. If your student thinks that hes ready to just learn the piece and nothing else, he can do it himself and for some other teacher.
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u/bigheadGDit 1d ago
This isn't just with instruments. I used to do continuation language training in the military. My students would spend 6 weeks out of the year in class, and then never make any efforts for the rest of the year. They'd come back a year later whining that they weren't getting any better at it, and always looking for quick and simple tricks.
You have to put in time and effort to get better at any skill.
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u/NTT66 1d ago
I saw a post previously titled something like "Stuck on barre chords!" And this first line was "I only practice half assed every so often but..."
So I honestly thought the title of the post was someone actually looking for help in the thread. Solid advice.
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u/Jiveturtle 1d ago
Maybe it’s just my personal anatomy but I honestly don’t get the big deal with bar chords. Yes, they took a bit of practice. Yes, they’re still not always 100% clean. But that’s learning.
You need to practice to get better. If you don’t practice, you won’t get better. People who are really good have practiced a lot. Musical instruments are much harder than, say, video games. I know because I’ve played a few instruments and a metric fuck ton of video games.
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u/CyberRedhead27 1d ago
If he thinks he knows better, let him do it himself. He's a big boy, you've made him aware of the physical risks and likely outcome. Failure is a good teacher too.
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u/vonov129 Music Style! 1d ago
Tell him in a less diplomatic way, call him out for wasting time. If he just nist wants to pretend he can just play the piece without working on his actual technique he can find out by himself.
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u/minimoon5 1d ago
Could you slow pieces of the song he wants to learn down and turn them into exercises to teach the techniques he’ll need to accomplish the song? I’ve done this before for students who are adamant on only learning songs.
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u/skinisblackmetallic 23h ago
Take his money. Allow him to work on the piece in your studio. Tell him where he's fucking up. He'll lose interest and find some other piece he wants to "learn".
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u/bottles90 21h ago
Explain to him his skills aren't where you think they need to be to complete the music. He can take it or leave it.
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u/Ordinary_Bird4840 12h ago
Make it a project he works on in his own time. Remove it from the lessons.
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u/dchurch2444 11h ago
This is what his aversion is though. He doesn't want to do the lessons, just the song. The lessons I've constructed to help him get to a standard to play the song, he has actively said he doesn't want to do.
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u/take_my_waking_slow 1d ago
If you seriously think he's likely to injure himself, you can honestly say that what he's asking poses you with a significant ethical challenge, and compromises your integrity as a teacher.
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u/dchurch2444 1d ago
He's of a larger disposition and sits to play. His wrist is bent back more than 90 degrees.
I have told him this, and shown him the correct way to position for this, as well as taken a stool with me to help.
I'll reiterate.
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u/BLazMusic 1d ago
You could work on the first 8 bars as a trial run.
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u/dchurch2444 1d ago
I have done just this, tabbed it out for him, but he needs to learn some basic techniques first really.
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u/BLazMusic 21h ago
yeah I mean if he won't take your advice, you might just be butting heads forever.
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u/Ok_Act1636 14h ago
Which song/piece is it? Is there any way for you to make a simplified version of it for the student?
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u/Ok_Room_4894 5h ago
There are rules and methods to obtaining goals. Learning to play an instrument of any kind is the same as any athletic endeavor. Dance, football, baseball, basketball, track and field all require extensive preparation and tedious practice. There are no shortcuts to winning. They all have to practice to achieve their intended goal which is not easy. Ask the student who his favorite musician or sports figure is? Then ask the student, how do you think that person got so good? First is attitude. A good attitude is most important. Second is, stretching, exercises and practice. There is not a single musician in the world that ever walked up to an instrument and was a master of that instrument. Perfection is built or accumulated through doing things that aren't fun. Don't tell the student you are trying to make him a musician but a teacher. Odd?? You know what it takes to be a teacher and this is the road you took personally to become a teacher. If you can't convince him, then you are wasting his time and yours. There are maps, blueprints, recipes and proper ways to achieve goals. If he refuses, then cut him loose.
Old Grandad
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u/D1rtyH1ppy 1d ago
It's because of students like this is why I don't want to teach guitar. There was one kid that only wanted to learn the Titanic song. I was just helping with a friend's son that was just starting on guitar, but I couldn't sit there and work on the song, week after week.
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u/oleygen 1d ago
I love your approach, my teacher doing opposite way, she insist we learn doing songs, despite I clearly can’t keep up and in need of proper technique training
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u/dchurch2444 1d ago
I often tell students (half jokingly), that I'm here to teach you guitar...if you want to use that skill to play songs, then that's brilliant.
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u/dino_dog Strummer 1d ago
Depends, if you need the money or not. If you do then teach him the song. Slowly and try and correct where you can.
If you’re not afraid of him quitting then I’d be a bit less diplomatic and tell him more bluntly why this is a bad idea. My experience is some folks just don’t get it unless you’re blunt.
But that’s me. Someone else likely has a better answer.