r/homeassistant • u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 • 1d ago
Personal Setup I’m just going to say it - can we stop pretending like matter is good
Just had about a 24 hour power loss. Needless to say my place lit up like a Christmas tree when power was finally restored. Everything is back to running as normal…..well that is everything except the remaining matter lights I have yet to phase out. All of my main kitchen lighting (4 large overhead bulbs and 3 candle island bulbs) dropped off during the power outage and now will not reconnect to home assistant, and I’ve basically tried everything. So now it’s back to breaking out the ladder again and re-pairing 7 more bulbs……AGAIN (third time).
Through this whole smart home journey there has been only one constant, whatever matter devices I have are shoddy at best. Just replaced all of the other bulbs with hue and it’s like nothing ever happened. I used to have a eufy matter smart lock, but that too had matter connectivity problems and would constantly drop off so I replaced it.
In the grand scheme of smart homing tech, I’m still relatively new to this world, within my first year. However I have tried tons of different devices over that time to see what I liked or didn’t like, and matter has always been the problem child. I know there will be the “what about matter over thread” comments but of the 60 or so devices I’ve owned since getting into HA only 1 had matter/thread capabilities (not counting HomePods).
All that being said I wouldn’t be surprised 5 years from now if matter over thread was THE standard, but for today I think it sucks, and I hate manufacturers trying to force it down our throats when I’m perfectly happy with and much prefer zigbee.
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u/emelbard 1d ago
I prefer smart switches with dumb bulbs for this reason.
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u/lordratner 1d ago edited 1d ago
Unfortunately there aren't any good options using dumb bulbs to have ambient lighting. Independent control over the brightness and color temperature is a game changer
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u/BongRipsForBuddha 1d ago
I use Lutron Caséta dimmers and Phillips dim-to-warm light bulbs.
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u/ListenLinda_Listen 1d ago
riddle me this. how do you get colored bulbs with only dumb switches?
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u/positivesnow11 1d ago
I have smart bulbs and smart switches for that. Bulbs always turn on when they regain power or the toggle is turned on. :) I can then have the colors change as I normally would and still able to make use of the switches as normal as possible. I just get in the habit of not turning off any light switches as best I can
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u/emelbard 1d ago
I don’t get colored bulbs. I have zigbee rgbw led strips for colored accent lighting that are also tied to the smart switches if we’re feeling colorful
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u/flamindrongoe 1d ago
Yeah i hate my smart bulbs haha. Switches are better and I have no use for the changes light colour/temp at the moment.
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u/emelbard 1d ago
We use rhbw zigbee led strips for when we’re feeling spicy
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u/flamindrongoe 1d ago
Oh yeah, soft lighting helps as you age...
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u/emelbard 1d ago
Oh I’m old and my wife is older (retired) we run 2700k dimmable leds and a few 1900k leds. All dimmable. I always thought fancy colored lights were for the kids
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u/ScaredyCatUK 1d ago
I'm pretty limited with my options but have taken to zigbee using sonoff ZBMINIL2 because they
a) Don't require a neutral
b) Allow you to still use the switch and that has zero repercussions for the zigbee control (ie turning the switch off doesn't power the ZBMINIL2 off).
My only real issue now is that the switches I haven't yet got to are 2-way ones and I'm not sure how I fix that using ZBMINIL2s.
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u/ConnectYou_Tech 1d ago
There is currently no reason to select Matter/Thread over Zigbee and Z-Wave. Both have been around ages, have better support, and don't rely on a manufacturer app at all.
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u/audigex 1d ago edited 1d ago
The main advantage of Matter is being able to control one device from multiple ecosystems simultaneously
So there is a reason to use it… it just might not be a reason you care about
Most people using Home Assistant won’t find much advantage in Matter because HA already handles the “tying ecosystems together” thing
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u/Glittering_Crab_69 1d ago
But you can do the same with Zigbee and zwave?
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u/audigex 1d ago
You can’t link a Zigbee device to multiple coordinators
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u/mkosmo 1d ago
You don't need multiple coordinators to have multiple ecosystems play ball. Just need to pick one to "own" the network coordinator.
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u/audigex 1d ago
Except now you can only access the device from that ecosystem and places that can interface with it
The obvious place that falls down being Siri/Apple
To be clear, I’m not saying I’m a Matter superfan or that I think it’s the only solution etc. but it is an advantage of Matter and I’m not sure why this community seems to pretend that advantage doesn’t exist
It’s sometimes convenient to be able to connect to multiple ecosystems simultaneously, without relying on compatibility between them
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u/2nd-Reddit-Account 1d ago
Why would Siri/apple be the place that falls down? Home assistant has rock solid HomeKit integration. I have zero issues with controlling my zigbee stuff with Siri
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u/GarrettB117 1d ago
Yep. I was all in on thread and matter at first but I’m fully on Zigbee now. No more problems.
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u/skepticDave 1d ago
Zwave ftw.
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u/controlmypad 1d ago
ZWave for nearly 20 years no problems, backwards compatibility, same devices carry over to new hub and stay bullet proof, and Sub-GHZ goes through walls and means few hops and no need for slave range extenders.
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u/CucumberError 1d ago
Zwave sucks if you’re outside the US. There’s different regional variations to work on different frequencies, so finding one that works with your local laws becomes a problem.
Zigbee is the same everywhere. We have heaps of Zigbee and have avoided zwave.
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u/Gowithflowwild 1d ago
I started off with z wave and it truly has been solid… But what you’re talking about, that does bring up a huge freaking issue! Standards are hugely important and if they are here and there depending on where you live, that’s an issue for sure.
I’ve been transitioning most to ZIGBEE… It’s endorsed by all the big boys, and it’s the one that is mature, versus matter and thread. Big hopes on those but right now I want all features to work immediately.
So I have to agree with and you’re not saying it sucks you’re just saying that it sucks outside of the US. But that kind of does make it suck when compared to ZIGBEE or just you know; put it a little below it, which was my overall response
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u/CucumberError 1d ago
From my perspective, being in a smaller country, part of a smaller zone (Australasia), it just doesn’t work in any kind of usable way. While I’m all in favour of localisation, this isn’t the way to do it.
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u/flamindrongoe 1d ago
I'm in AU and haven't found it hard with Zwave stuff at all. I started all Zwave and it's all still going (6+ years, 10+ devices, 1 dead), but now also have Zigbee and WiFi purely due to cost.
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u/CucumberError 1d ago
Are you buying local or online? NZ and AU devices are interchangeable, but no one sells stuff locally here in NZ, so we have to order Aussie stuff, and not US/EU, which is then disappointing when you find 4-5 things for the US that do what you want, and then one feature limited for the AU/NZ market.
It’s seriously quicker to ship to NZ from the EU than Australia, AustPost sucks soooo much, so I tend to avoid AU stuff if I want it timely.
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u/flamindrongoe 1d ago
TBH i haven't bought z-wave for a while because I found zigbee and wifi cheaper and reliable. When I started out i bought z-wave online from Aus retailers.
Though you just reminded me, i think i bought a z-wave doorbell or something from Aliexpress that was US. Ended up throwing it out.
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u/Redditrini 1d ago
I only use zwave and I'm outside the US. I have no issues.
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u/squirrel_crosswalk 1d ago
What frequencies does your country use?
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u/Redditrini 1d ago
No clue. We are in the US footprint, Caribbean, so probably the same.
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u/squirrel_crosswalk 1d ago
The issue the rest of the world has is there isn't clear labelling. A consumer shouldn't be expected to know which exact bands they can buy (and you don't know as an example). So if you buy online you might wind up with something that just doesn't work.
Yes the exact MHz is on the back of the box in tiny print, and sometimes (but not always) in the online ad, but even then I have to look up what bands we use every time.
They really need to letter and colour code the bands. It would be so simple, and all zwave stuff is licensed so make it a requirement. I would know I can buy band D and G, which are red and green. Etc.
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u/Redditrini 1d ago
I agree with you and I didn't even know this was an issue. So will look out for that in the future.
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u/CambodianJerk 1d ago
This. Zigbee is far superior.
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u/zipzag 1d ago
Zigbee is in no way superior except for product selection outside of North America. Zwave uses a more appropriate frequency and is all certified products. I have 44 zigbee devices in addition to my 90 zwave.
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u/Glittering_Crab_69 1d ago
That's nice for you. Completely useless in the rest of the world tho
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u/Kyyuby 1d ago
Prime example of US defautism
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u/usnmustanger 1d ago
How so? If the discussion focuses on protocol maturity, robustness, functionality, and reliability, then the point stands—Z-wave is just a good as, if not better than, zigbee. But even when you bring geographic availability into the argument, the geographic restrictions are continental, not national. And in case you didn’t know, the US isn’t the only country in North America. So unless you want to include Canada in your idiotic comment, you might just want to rethink how dumb it was.
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u/SirDarknessTheFirst 1d ago
I don't have a Z-Wave network due to the cost and lack of devices for my band - but beyond the (tbh double-edged) frequency, what benefits does it actually have over Zigbee?
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u/7lhz9x6k8emmd7c8 1d ago
Despite being fragile. You can only have 1 coordinator and and to re-apapir everything if you replace it.
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u/greuve 1d ago
I have 3 coordinators at the moment. A single one would not cover the area I need to cover.
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u/DonGar37 1d ago
I've been happily using zwave for a long time (currently at 58 devices), but I've recently started having more and more trouble.
The network often seems to freeze for like a minute if the house has been empty for a while. Effectively, you walk in and the lights finally turn on after you've walked all around the place, gone upstairs, etc.
I've also had to write an automation to ping dead devices to bring them back. And more recently, I've started having to go manually flip dead switches once to get it to reconnect.
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
One of matters biggest selling points is connectivity with other devices, but if you use HA you already realize that benefit so it just becomes another protocol, and in my experience, not a good one
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u/DotGroundbreaking50 1d ago
I am more confused by who is saying it is good? It has the potential but no one is saying its ready.
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
Honestly Z-Wave is pretty much the only protocol I have not tried yet. Pretty well dug in with zigbee at this point so it doesn’t make a ton of sense for me to start another z-wave ecosystem but if I had to start all over knowing what I know now I might test the waters to see what all the fuss is about
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u/InformalTrifle9 1d ago
I have the exact same feedback for ZigBee, but others have no issues. After a prolonged HA outage while I was away, only the hardwired ZigBee devices reconnected. All the battery ones needed re-pairing. And frequently do even when there is no outage. Zwave on the other hand (and WiFi devices) reconnect without issue, even the battery powered ones
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
Could be a mesh problem, I have a rock solid network so my devices always work great
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u/InformalTrifle9 1d ago
I think it's the aqara devices to be honest. They will only ever communicate with the device they originally paired with and won't mesh. And the water leak sensors won't stay connected at all if I pair them to my IKEA plugs, but will stay paired for a while if connected to the ikea bulbs or the coordinator
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u/sircolby45 1d ago
That's because Aqara doesn't properly support the Zigbee protocol in a lot of their devices. You are blaming the wrong culprit here when you point the finger at Zigbee. If Aqara implemented the standard correctly, you wouldn't have those issues. (Based on your comment though, it sounds like you already knew that.)
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u/InformalTrifle9 1d ago
Yea you're right. 99% it is aqara devices. But when I've commented about them before I've had replies that they work great for others
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u/sircolby45 1d ago
Yeah, that is likely just because they are not using them in a way that causes them to malfunction. (Example I have Aqara devices that work perfectly, but they are connecting directly to the base, so they are not affected by the mesh configuration changing...which as you know...they can't handle properly.)
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u/-Kerrigan- 1d ago
My matter over thread devices have been rock solid too, with Aqara app, with Google app. The only finnicky bits were with Home Assistant's python-matter-server.
Had to do some finagling to get it working nicely in macvlan, combined with the latest updates of matter server, now it is quite reliable in home assistant as well.
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u/dale3h 8h ago
What channel do you have your Zigbee network running on? I usually recommend channel 25 so that WiFi causes less interference, or 26 IF all of your devices support it. However, I believe that changing the channel will require you to rebuild your entire network.
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u/wivaca2 1d ago
Can't say I have much experience with Matter/Thread, but in order of reliability, recoverability, and responsiveness for others, my experience, from best to worst, is:
- zwave
- insteon
- zigbee
- wifi
- bluetooth
I'd have put Insteon in #1 spot when I was on HomeSee and ZWave at #2, but the poor support on HA and archaic interface of the ISY-994 I've been forced to use to get full functionality has dropped it down. I fear it will be slipping to #3 soon given my relatively new experience with Zigbee.
Wifi is fine for hubs connecting to HA but I prefer wires on those, but it's nearly a last resort for device connectivity even though I have solid Ubiquiti wifi throughout my home.
Bluetooth is just not good in any kind of home automation and control context, and barely good for a network connecting devices on your body.
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u/aasikki 1d ago
In my experience with wifi and zigbee, the reliability is very device dependent, especially with wifi, but also with zigbee. I have many wifi devices that have been absolutely flawless, but also some ZigBee devices I'm looking to replace due to reliability issues.
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u/beanmosheen 15h ago
A lot of folks have too many devices on a single Wifi AP. They end up with problems because of it.
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u/Complex_Self_387 1d ago
Wish Switchbot Curtains would have proper support instead of Bluetooth. I have a hub nearby to control them but there's always a big delay.
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u/chtochingo 1d ago
I have a Bluetooth repeater using esphome for my SwitchBot blind thing tilt and the response time is very fast, like a few hundred ms at most. Maybe that could make it better than the SwitchBot hub?
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u/jacroe 1d ago
Just out of curiosity (and not suggesting anyone actually use this), where would you place X10? I'm assuming you've used it purely because you still have some Insteon stuff. I cut my teeth on X10 so just curious where you'd rank it amongst everything else
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u/wivaca2 1d ago edited 1d ago
I started with X10 in 1985-86 in an apartment and was still using them until about 20 years ago when I moved into my current home. None at all now, of course, but I have like a 5 cu ft box of solidly packed switches, lamp and on/off modules, motion detectors, dry contact relays and sensors, alarms, remotes, and receivers in my garage (don't ask me why). I think you can see why I see Matter on Thread as "bleeding edge" that probably needs some time to simmer.
Honestly, I would not place X10 anywhere on the list anymore. Even in their prime, they were slow and unreliable, sometimes requiring 2-3 repeats to work. They were particularly problematic across power phases even with a bridge/repeater, and limited by their manual address setting. They did not repeat signals to act like a mesh, but multiple devices could have the same address (that was a "group"). Still, they were like magic at the time and everyone from X10 Direct to Sears to Radio Shack carried them.
Keep in mind that these existed before there was networking other than dial-up between mainframes and minicomputers, and the world was ruled by serial ports, 2400 bps modems, and 5-1/4" 1.2MB floppies.
It still works if you plug them in - and I used some for my parents so they could remote control Christmas lights and some under cabinet lights in their kitchen.
At this point they're more interesting for nostalgia than usability, and laughable compared to anything on the list above.,
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u/Ok_Nefariousness9178 1d ago
my list is similar, tin ceilings cause problems between floors. so my list is
Zwave so second floor works and back of house. (mostly on Smarthings, just bought Zwave controller for HA, added 1 sensor)
Zigbee cheap, mostly just plugs and what I started with on Home Assistant.
Ethernet (TV/Stereo/apple TV)
Wifi for anything that is Wifi only (None in use)
Slowly moving away from smartthings to HA, so on one platform for everything.
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u/Mister_Fart_Knocker 1d ago
This was why I dumped my ISY994i. The interface was horrible and extremely outdated, plus I still had to log into the ISY to do some things at the time. I have a serial PLM connected to HA and the system just works. The dual tech stuff is nice, but the main thing I've kept are my KeypadLinc switches. No one else makes an 8 button I like. Other switches have been changed over to Casetta or Innovelli.
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u/LoganJFisher 1d ago
I just wish ZWave wasn't such a pain in the ass. I get that it's supposed to be more secure, but it makes pairing and repairing devices so much more annoying than it is for Zigbee.
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u/digital_1 1d ago
My preferences are as follows:
1). Z-Wave has always been rock solid. We're talking Lutron-Caseta levels of rock solid. No impact on my WiFi network. No impact from other people's WiFi network. Fewer options for device selection, but I tend to narrow my focus anyway to only a few types of proven reliable devices.
2). Zigbee when Z-Wave options are available. Early on (8+ years ago or so), it was less reliable for me than Z-Wave, but that has improved. Great selection of supported devices too. However, you can have the best Zigbee network in the world, rock solid, stable etc. and then your neighbor updates his WiFi router which now overlaps your Zigbee channel, make things unstable. In practice, I've only had this happen once or twice but I didn't enjoy dealing with the time it took to troubleshoot it.
3). WiFi is the least preferred option for me, because of the traffic it generates. Not the traffic like sending commands to a device like turn on device xyzzy, bur rather the discovery traffic (mDNS, SSDP, broadcast pings) it generates. Imagine for every lightbulb you add having each one continually shouting on your wifi network "I'm bulbabc123.local! My IP is 10.1.1.38" over and over. Add a couple dozens of those, and suddenly you can run into congestion issues with things like streaming on HomePods and Chromecasts, etc.
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u/Fatality 1d ago
Imagine for every lightbulb you add having each one continually shouting on your wifi network "I'm bulbabc123.local! My IP is 10.1.1.38" over and over.
Devices control how often they send this though, OFDMA AND TWT optimise it a lot.
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u/SuitableStudy3316 1d ago
Z wave ftw. Solid local connectivity and the only protocol that doesn’t overlap or interfere with wireless.
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u/zer00eyz 1d ago
> I’m just going to say it - can we stop pretending like matter is good
If I had to make a bet you are running your ISP's router and it is doing something stupid with IPV6 and this is the source of your issues.
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u/adrianipopescu 1d ago
while this is probably the answer it would be good ti have a matter healthcheck or similar, to ensure our stuff is set up correctly
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
I’m not going to lie to you, you are correct. I realize this hobby probably attracts people who are more tech literate than the regular person but that’s how 99% of America has their home configured. I don’t have to make any special accommodations for any of my other smart devices, I shouldn’t have to for matter
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u/zer00eyz 1d ago
> I don’t have to make any special accommodations for any of my other smart devices
Zigbee has quirks files, and all sorts of accommodations to get devices working. ZWAVE has an onerous certification process that limits what gets put into the standard. Wifi in general is a HOT mess, but there is enough power and compute on the other side that most things "work" even if they are buggy and destructive.
> I don’t have to make any special accommodations for any of my other smart devices, I shouldn’t have to for matter
Here is the thing, if it showed up and did NOT work, then you would have problem that was clear cut and able to be addressed. The issue you are having is that it sort of, most of the time works. Till it doesn't. Till the magic wears off and the buggy drivers in HA, your network, your ISP's gear and the devices on it run into conflict... Then you are playing a game of whack-a-mole trying to fix something with out having clear steps to reproduce.
These are the sorts of things that will trip up even experienced tech people. They are the sorts of things where you tell someone technical to do something that makes ZERO sense with their understanding of how things are working, and like magic things get better. Smart, experienced, technical people are often left asking "how, why, that should never have happened". Some times they even refuse to believe that what is suggested COULD work and then go into deep denial and refuse to try things that have track records of working (against the odds).
> but that’s how 99% of America has their home configured
IF that were the case then the issue would get fixed. It's some combination of your HA install YOUR devices on your network, YOUR isp router, the phases of the moon and how your hair looks that day. As you pointed out it's one set of lighbulbs, after a power outage after a....
> I shouldn’t have to for matter
Im in the middle of writing a quirks file for a zigbee device, it will go back to the community and someone else WONT have the limitations I'm facing. You don't have any moral obligation to do anything for the community. If you do decide to chase this down, to make it reproducible to get something to generate a log message, or identify a pattern than could be used to create a message you are making a contribution. Your getting all of us one step closer to "not having to", to "just works".
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u/patbrochill89 1d ago
I’m definitely a matter guy. I don’t know how unstable everybody’s house is, but this is a non issue for me. For me, matter was an answer to a question that has since never had to have been re-asked
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u/Some-Redditor 20h ago
When people complain about using Matter this - whack IPv6 settings - is usually the problem.
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u/HiCookieJack 1d ago
> Needless to say my place lit up like a Christmas tree
got me laughing :D
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u/wivaca2 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, I think I had the same picture in my head. When power comes back on for us, my UPSes beep, half the lights come on because they were on before, my AVR and speakers thump, the alarm panel chirps then asks for a reset, our VoIP phones warble, my laser printer cycles, and our refrigerator alarms.
It's like a circus just came to town, or I just walked into a casino. LOL.
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u/HiCookieJack 1d ago
on the other note: I love ZigBee, the ability to connect devices directly to each other and create groups of lights is amazing. I can build a network that works even if my server breaks
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u/-entropy 1d ago
Definitely not my experience. All my Thread / Matter stuff is far more reliable than Zigbee ever was (and yes I had a very strong Zigbee network). I am just waiting for Thread / Matter moisture sensor and I'll be fully off Zigbee.
Matter bulbs - any chance they were Nanoleaf? Total garbage, if so. Generally I do dumb, high quality bulbs with smart switches.
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
No, all the ones I have left are govee. Had a bunch of different brands in my house. Tried Tapo, linkind, govee, no discernible difference in performance between them
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u/sparx_fast 1d ago
Matter/Thread is basically in the early growing pains phase as all the issues are worked out. It should take over eventually. I'm holding out on until then as I don't want to deal with a hodgepodge.
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u/robbydek 17h ago
In a way Matter is finally starting to show its potential (you now have the ability to effectively certify devices for Matter, Apple, Google and Samsung with one lab test) but I agree with you about Matter you have a lot of so called promises that have yet to materialize.
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u/stealstea 1d ago
Opposite for me. Slowly replacing all the proprietary shit with matter and other locally controllable stuff. Never buying another smart home product that depends on the internet or some shitty app
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u/MRobi83 1d ago
Smart to not rely on the cloud. Matter is just too new for mass adoption at this rate. I'd take cloud over an incomplete and still evolving protocol. But I'd take zigbee or zwave over all of the above.
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u/stealstea 1d ago
I haven’t had an issue with my matter stuff so far. I also think IKEA jumping in with all their products will help mature the protocol and cement future support
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u/Kacquezooi 1d ago
Still deciding: what does matter solve for Ikea stuff? Why the adoption?
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u/derFensterputzer 1d ago
I'd guess get in early with matter over thread to gain market share. Since the tradfri gateway already has the hardware and the capability was just unlocked by a software update I feel that was their plan all along, they just waited until matter over thread was mature enough.
The thread itself offers some pretty enticing benefits over zigbee. It is a mesh network aswell but uses less power and doesn't rely on a single coordinator but multiple devices in the network are able to fulfill this role. In short: its like zigbee, but better. And zigbee still works on the tradfri gateway aswell, so if you already are an existing customer you don't have to buy a new coordinator and can just buy new devices, but if you want to stay with zigbee you don't have to change anything either.
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u/Halo_Chief117 1d ago
I’m the opposite. I’d definitely not take cloud at least cloud-only. I’m willing to try something new as long as it supports a local connection.
The whole Belkin WeMo situation is the reason I found Home Assistant about a month ago now. I don’t like a cloud connection and then being at the mercy of the company on whether they close up shop on a product or not.
I imagine there are going to be a lot of people that will end up throwing away or replacing their WeMo switches in January next year because they won’t know about Home Assistant.
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u/Skaut-LK 1d ago
That's why I'm buying only what could be flashed with alternative FW that is independent. Or atleast what doesn't need anything to pair it ( like ZigBee)
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u/modernkennnern 1d ago
Cloud-based "smart" products is guaranteed e-waste waiting to happen; you are buying a product that will stop functioning sooner or later - literally impossible for it not to (granted, that time might be in like 50 years, but that time will definitely come - 100% guaranteed).
And this is not even talking about the fact that cloud-based solutions will always be lagier due to the network requests, less secure because they talk on the open internet, and less automatable due to some kind of proprietary interface to function. All in all they're just worse in practically every way.
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u/stealstea 1d ago
As an owner of a second gen Nest that google just said will lose support I am very familiar. Never again
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u/eagleeyerattlesnake 18h ago
Not Matter =/= relies on internet or "some shitty app"
There are many things that don't rely on internet or an app that aren't Matter.
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u/stealstea 18h ago
Yep but a proper standard is worth something rather than a hacked together collection of devices that all work a little differently
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u/Southern-Trainer4337 13h ago
You forgot that it relies on proprietary Google/Apple shit and that almost always the other options can be controlled locally without all that shit. I don't use matter at all, only use wifi devices and I'm still 100% local, home assistant the only app I have.
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u/Sinister_Mr_19 1d ago
I very much prefer Zwave myself. Local only non Wi-Fi protocols are far superior for most devices.
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u/marius_siuram 1d ago
You are describing EXACTLY my experience with ZigBee
I feel your pain, and I know that it is frustrating. But you are not giving technical reasons. Instead, you have had a bad experience. And that is valuable, and important, but not a rational reason to fully disregard a whole tech stack.
Everyone is free to express themselves, either with posts on Reddit or with their wallets when buying devices. I believe that Matter is a step forward and the few Matter over thread devices I own have been the most stable and easy to pair and low maintenance.
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u/Elf_Paladin 1d ago
Good ol zigbee. Nothing beats that. Matter is trash.
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
That’s my opinion. Dance with the one who brought ya. I don’t care that matter exists, but stop trying to force it on me
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u/traphyk7 Developer 1d ago
My wife and I use HA, and my in-laws Homekit. We can control things independently and I can still run automations for them. Matter has its purposes. But it's not Matter that's the issue, it really is just the Matter controller in these cases.
That said, newer products are light years better, as with Z-wave.
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u/leftplayer 1d ago
I’ve moved away from intelligent bulbs to Shelly controllers. I’ve got dumb bulbs and dumb LED strips (almost) everywhere now.
And Shelly is simple WiFi/IP, which is robust and scalable.
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u/Apprehensive-End7926 1d ago
It's not for you! Matter exists to make life easier for the 99% of smart home users who do not use Home Assistant. For them, it's great.
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u/sparkyblaster 1d ago
I'm just pissed everything thread isn't also ZigBee or, thread wasn't forced onto zigbee. I know a few coordinators got upgraded from zigbee to support both and as far as I can tell, it's all the same chipsets with an extra software layer.
Because I'd rather stick with ZigBee for now and move to thread when it's ready. Right now, there just isn't enough devices.
I guess I expect this more with mainstream devices rather than the cheap china stuff. Surprisingly I think most of my zigbee stuff is hue or IKEA and both of them I feel should be responsible enough to push a firmware update to support thread.
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u/beanmosheen 15h ago
Most of the chipsets are the same too. I wish the manufacturers would offer a firmware for swapping.
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u/marceldeneut 19h ago
Also something to be said about matter is that it's a sneaky way for manufacturers to limit your freedom. They do matter with the same hardware as ZigBee (e.g. the usuals esp32, cb3s,...), which we love because we can reflash them with open source firmware... Only... The official matter specs (to get the product certified and allow the usage of the matter logo) demand that the firmware must be locked down (so you can't boot in flash mode anymore, it can only be flashed by the current firmware, which verifies a checksum) "for your security". Don't be surprised if in a few years, when matter will be the standard, that they push a firmware that bricks your device unless you pay for a subscription.
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u/SERichard1974 12h ago
Matter is not for those of us on Home Assistant. It is for those trying to stay on the bad platforms like Google Home, Alexa, Home kit or Smart Things. It is a baby standard, still needing time to reach some form of maturity.
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u/suckmyENTIREdick 1d ago
Nobody likes my opinions on this, and that's fine.
I've had a few power outages over the past year. The Matter-over-wifi devices came back fine. The Zigbee devices came back fine. The various clown-connected devices came back fine. The ESPHome devices came back fine.
The only problem has been that my HA VM doesn't autostart properly, so I remind [again] myself to fix that (and I still haven't).
I've been gravitating towards Matter+wifi because it works for me, and I want the format to succeed, and I ideally only want one wireless network to keep track of instead of multiples of them. I like that one device can directly take commands from many Matter controllers.
And ideally, Matter is consistent for those who aren't like us and who haven't dove into the home automation rabbit hole.
A primary goal with Matter seems to be advertising Matter compatibility: Ideally, anything with the logo should work with anything else with the logo, and the marketing encourages people to be able to learn this. This is potentially very liberating for regular people by elevating and genericizing product availability in good ways.
And it differs greatly from how Zigbee stuff is normally marketed: Joe Average doesn't necessarily know that the Hue, SmartThings, Trådfri, and Sengled devices they have may in fact all speak a common language or that this language is called "Zigbee."
Matter allows a shift from "We use only use Philips Hue lights in this house" or "Hey, honey? Which app do we use to control the lights in the guest bedroom?" to "That's a pretty good price for a smart bulb. And it's got a Matter logo on the box, so that should work fine with what we've got."
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u/Gowithflowwild 1d ago
I think, and maybe this is a naïve opinion, but those relying on Wi-Fi have it just as wrong as matter, except for maybe even more so.
Wi-Fi just eats battery life and bandwidth like someone with zero self-control!
And maybe Matter isn’t ready like you said, but Wi-Fi is definitely not the alternative!
I think Zigbee is the one protocol you can go ahead and count on at this point. It’s pretty damn robust!
That being stated, when I began the smart home journey, I never really messed with Wi-Fi, and when I did, the one thing I noticed was that batteries lasted probably 1/5 or worse than z-wave. And I happen to switch over my Wi-Fi options for Zigbee, and when you include ZIGBEE2MQTT, I’m not really sure how you can go wrong! And as far as I know ZHA is not bad either!
But I absolutely agree on matter having lots of weaknesses at this point. If something is going to have a pairing issue, for my experience it’s generally going to be something based on matter.
I believe there’s that alliance, and it include Zigbee. When you think about the fact that Amazon, Apple, SmartThings, Google, and more, all Incorporated Zigbee, and the big picture it’s hard for me to see that one dropping off anytime soon.
So even if I were to start today all brand new, I probably wouldn’t be afraid of going z-wave, as it has always done right by me, and it forms a really strong mesh network! And even with that, I find it all connecting directly to the hub, even with repeaters in between.
So at this exact point in time, I’d have to say:
- 1.) ZIGBEE (more confidence just because it’s pretty ubiquitous)
- 2.) Z-WAVE (based on five years of pretty flawless performance for me… In a way, the only reason it lands number two is simply using that logic that the bigger guys all included Zigbee but not z wave.
An honorable mention to BLE (lol).
But I do look forward to what Matter Over Thread brings us, and what our discussion will be in… Say two years!
I just want to say: LOCAL…LOCAL BABY!!!
Once SmartThings began with the new agreements every time I logged in, I knew it was time… Something was about to happen that I would not like. Well I wasn’t wrong. That’s about the time I started rounding up all of my gear to self host all kinds of stuff, and it all started with HA, and has turned into ProxMox, Where I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface!
Now to be a little off-topic unfortunately… Sorry about this one but I’m just excited! I’m going ahead and repurposed I went ahead and repurposed my former work computer with an i7 processor, and I’m pretty excited for what things will look like at the end of today or this weekend… I’m sure I will make a mistake and make it harder on myself! That’s because in order to speed things up, I’ve switched from:
- PCIe M.2 512GB SSD
- ••••and now to••••
- PCIe NVMe M.2 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO)
- ••••AND••••
- 2x 32GB RAM from 1x 16gb)
Hard to go wrong on 1TB SSD when I was already happy to see it at $74.99… and by holding off just a few days, which usually bites me in the ass, it became a daily deal, so I definitely pulled the trigger at $64.99.
BTW, most of my storage is sent to my NAS, which has an RA ID configuration… Forget what it is but basically just makes the same copy to each hard drive. But 12 GB of that. I think that should be a solid combo.
However I have a newer generation, which will eventually take over… Within a year. So, when I upgrade computers, it’s ready for the next generation PCIe (backwards compatible… Gonna be a huge jump That I’m about to notice, but more to come when it’s the current generation)
Although working with a microform factor is kind of a small annoyance. We’ll see how deep I get because it’s definitely limiting, and if I really keep expanding, I’m gonna just do a custom build.
In the meantime, next purchase is coral TPU and some nice deep video analytic processes, which I would not bother doing without this capability as I would not want to bog down the processor.
This is about to get quite interesting one implemented!
And I have so much GD things to learn but This community keeps me absolutely motivated and it really is all of your faults that I knew to switch to the faster SSD protocol… To grab coral TPU… Damn you, I love you! 🤣🤣🤣
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u/ScaredyCatUK 1d ago
I'm building devices using the ESP32-C6 on those, the truth is, Wifi is less power hungry than Zigbee. Particularly for sensors reporting in every so often and then deep sleeping.
Battery life for both is affected by signal strength.
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u/Gowithflowwild 1d ago
Looks like my post went through twice. Apologies for that!!
Talk about making it look even more of that insanely in-depth piece! Yikes !!😱
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u/beanmosheen 15h ago
With a proper network setup wifi on hardwired devices is rock solid. People bitch all the time about it but don't understand they're using a bad setup. We run a gigantic chunk of industry off of wifi and it has no issues. MQTT or ESPhome just run if you have the right WAPs and a healthy device count on each. If you have an ISP router with 34 devices on one AP of course it's going to suck. Nothing I run is cloud based at all. 100% local. I have 43 wifi devices spread over 3 WAPs and they never fail. That with Zigbee for my battery devices and I just don't have to futz with anything. Wifi on battery is dumb I agree, but there are a small number of ultra-efficient devices you can use if you're DIY. They can sit on battery for months and wake up and transmit is about 150ms.
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u/PacoTaco321 1d ago
To be fair, I have the same shit happen with Zigbee lights and switches, and sometimes it doesn't even require a power outage. But yeah, I did swap out my matter light bulbs because they were more inconsistent.
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u/spaceman3000 1d ago
Agree. Matter are the only lights that causing problems for me. I never had issue with Tuya one lol.
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u/scstraus 1d ago
It's gonna take a lot to switch me away from zwave. IMHO it does everything better than Matter. I don't see the point.
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u/ComprehensiveProfit5 1d ago
That's what we think after testing it for deployment in professional building settings. Some places still don't have proper wifi so matter/thread looked like a nice alternative. But we lost some equipment and were never able to recover them. That sealed the deal for the moment, back to wifi, zigbee and maybe lorawan for those who need it.
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u/Gamester17 1d ago
Yeah I think you gonna need to give the Matter standard another 5-years to mature. Just keep using Z-Wave or Zigbee devices instead for now (and even there you should be aware that you usually get what you paid for).
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u/LMRTech 20h ago
I deal with open protocols in highly competitive and proprietary systems as part of my day job. What I have learned from that is that proprietary implementations and integrations will almost always be more stable and feature rich than open standard implementation.
Open standards take a long time to develop. They will always be behind the function and feature curve of proprietary implementations. After they are released, vendors take time to figure out how to implement them, roll them into product cycles, and then release them.
I’m a HUGE fan of open standards but when using them you need to understand the trade-offs Vs benefits.
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u/MisterBazz 20h ago
Matter works fine for me even after a power outage. Don't know what you're on about.
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u/beanmosheen 16h ago
I accidentally bought a really expensive roller blind with thread/matter and "%$#" came out of my mouth immediately when I realized it. Zigbee just works. Now I need to either swap the motor, swap the firmware in it, or buy a damn bridge.
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u/Gullible_Eagle4280 1d ago
I’ve learned that when it comes to lights it’s worth paying extra for Lutron. Worth every penny if you ask me.
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u/Pretagonist 23h ago
IMHO this isn't a matter problem, it's a "all other smart lights that aren philips hue are kinda shit" problem. I have tried a lot of different smart lights over the years using every protocol imaginable and hues are the only ones I've found that aren't a complete PITA
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 19h ago
To be fair I can’t totally rule that out, have only ever had matter (albeit multiple manufacturers) or (hue) zigbee. I would have to try a third party zigbee bulb to see how it goes.
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u/TonyDRFT 1d ago
I thought Home Assistant keeps track of the states of devices and tries to restore these after powering back up...or is that not true? (for all protocols)
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u/marius_siuram 1d ago
Generally, that is the duty and decision of the device itself.
I have seen smart bulbs that are capable of restoring to last state, and that is a configuration of the smart bulb itself. Home Assistant will reflect whatever the state of the light is. Default for smart bulbs seem to be restore to power on so you can at least turn on the lights by turning off and on mains.
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u/TonyDRFT 1d ago
Really? So HA does not handle this at all? (If that is the case then it does not make any sense, because if HA would try to restore the last situation and so does the device, then they would not 'harm' eachother's interaction?!). Even when the power comes back up and HA is not active yet then it would fall back to the same device logic...
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u/Mister_Fart_Knocker 1d ago
I started with everything Insteon, but have phased in Hue, Casetta, and ZWave. I don't care if they match or not, so long as they just work. Though I will say Hue is kinda annoying with its default to on after a power cut, but I don't have them in places where that's an issue.
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u/Smartguy11233 1d ago
I like my matter devices haven't had any issues with it..... Though it's gonna suck when I eventually upgrade my wifi
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u/Verscreubulator 1d ago
Are you aware that you can set startup behavior for most (all?) Matter devices? This dictates how they behave after a power disruption. This makes set up a pain in the neck, but once the Matter devices are set up just how you like them, you never have to deal with this again.
You may have to use the manufacturer's app to set your startup settings as I believe this is stored in each device's internal memory.
Other types of smart devices also often have these settings too with similarly annoying setup requirements.
I hope this helps!
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u/jamalwilliamsyoung23 1d ago
Yeah I knew you could do it for hue which are the majority of my bulbs now but it unfortunately occurred to me after the power was already out and my bridge offline. so when I tried to go in to edit the settings I could not connect. Fortunately for me the power did come back on until well into in the afternoon so no middle of the night laser shows in my house
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u/Vlinux 1d ago
I have a TP-Link Tapo smart plug that uses Matter over WiFi and while I haven't had a power outage yet since I installed it, it was really easy to pair to HA and use. Have definitely heard mixed results with Matter on other devices, but I wonder if that comes down to faulty implementations in different vendors/devices and differences with Matter over Thread vs WiFi.
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u/Rommyappus 1d ago
I recently had my Internet go out for a day due to construction on my house and when I plugged it back in my matter integration to my hue lights stopped working. I couldn't get it back so I ended up removing the matter integration and re adding it.. that's a stupid problem to have...
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u/jaysprenkle 1d ago
I prefer smart switches. The server can be down but the buttons on the wall still turn the lights on and off. I do have smart bulbs, but I use the ability to set the brightness rather than for remote control. Cutting the power to the LEDs by 10-20% will dramatically increase their lifespan. So far I haven't had to replace any.
I have avoided all the "ecosystems" for many reasons. Poor security, bricked hardware when they decide a product is no longer supported, lack of integration, etc. You can roll your own with open source but it's much more difficult.
YMMV
#NodeRed #Tasmota #OpenMQTTGateway #Mosquitto #Rpi #Sonoff #BLE
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u/throwawayacab283746 1d ago
Am I correct in thinking that with matter it uses ipv6 and therefore devices can potentially talk to the internet? The reason I chose zigbee is because I know a zigbee device cannot access the internet.
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u/njain2686 21h ago
I just was thinkiing about getting some matter Lights to add to my Home.
Will wait a few years.
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u/ianfabs 19h ago
I have never had any issues with matter personally once I figured out the server setup. I can power cycle my HA any time and my four lightbulbs and one button keep on working xD
For real though that does suck. While Matter over Thread is better there are not enough devices supporting it, mostly for us tinkerers to enjoy fixing :p
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u/severanexp 19h ago
Funny. I have a hover t3 lite running with matter and a matter ac dongle and we have a power outage in Portugal that lasted what felt like about 18 hours (my location only saw power again well after 11pm) and when power came back everything came back up fine. What brands are you using so I can stay away?
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u/Disastrous-While-768 18h ago
My experience with matter sucked so badly I gave up on it for the foreseeable future.
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u/DisciplineNo5186 18h ago
Yeah had one matter bulb it was a nightmare. I prefer Z-Wave but its not that common so most of my devices are zigbee
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u/HortonHearedAJew 17h ago
I love my Nanoleaf stuff. I don’t have any problems with matter whatsoever.
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u/Zealousideal_Cup4896 14h ago
I looked into supporting it for an unrelated projects back when it was just Nest trying to make good on their promise for a local connection protocol. I let it slide for a while as I just couldn’t believe what I was reading. Let’s encapsulate one protocol onto another onto another until nobody knows what the heck is going on. I hate them from way back then. So far I find absolutely no reason to get inbolved with it. There may come a time I need a device that only supports it and if so then as long as I don’t have to touch the actual implementation then I might think about it for as long as it takes me to find something else. But then no. A lot would need to happen to make me forgive how much of my time I wasted in years long past trying to figure out why it could not possibly be as stupid as it kept telling me it was. So yea. I will keep speaking truth to protocol!
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u/Southern-Trainer4337 13h ago
Matter is horrible. Requires Google spyware. ZWave, WiFi (especially the IoT ready WiFi 6 and 7) and Zigbee are the only sensible choice.
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u/Rusty_Trigger 13h ago
Z-Wave is the only thing I will use. Rock solid and never affected by power outages. Every mains powered Z-Wave device is a repeater so no devices ever drop off the network.
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u/mythix_dnb 13h ago
yeah I have 2 matter devices and they both were both complicated to setup, drain battery and have bad connection. and its impossible to debug when something goes wrong.
ill keep bluetooth and zigbee thank you very much.
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u/mikeymop 7h ago
I have no issues with Matter. I have http and thread enables matter devices and they're very reliable
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u/Sokomo_Kudyome 1d ago
I started with ZigBee and don't dare use other protocols. For my needs, everything is available with ZigBee. I have no complaints; I've already experienced two or three power outages, one of them prolonged, and there was no need to rebind.