r/judo • u/MasterofLinking shodan • Dec 17 '24

Competing and Tournaments Kouchi while grabbing your own leg.

At a recent local tournament we had this situation, that was a little bit of a controversy. While Tori is not grabbing Ukes leg, in my opinion preventing the possibility of stepping back and thus defending the throw would still fall under blocking the leg. What's your opinion? Would you have given the score or shido?

>! decision was score !<

412 Upvotes

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148

u/MarsupialFormer Dec 18 '24

The fact that we have to question whether this is legal, or not, shows how absurd it is to pile on so many rules....to a point where, then, you have to interpret whether such a wonderful technique is.....LEGAL!!!!

35

u/averageharaienjoyer Dec 18 '24

What are you talking about, all sports have rule controversies, judo is hardly special here

13

u/jephthai Dec 18 '24

Haha, judo makes substantial, strategy changing rule changes at a shocking pace compared to other sports. It's bizarre how the proper look of judo has to change so often. I wonder if people who pretend the judo isn't special in this way just don't really keep up with other sports.

2

u/averageharaienjoyer Dec 18 '24

You're kidding right? As an immediate example, here is Aus the Australian Football League rules are altered almost every year. Some of these are just as contentious in judo, like the holding the ball issue in 2024.

Granted, that example doesn't involve 'changing the proper look of the sport'. So here is another example, the rules changes in the early UFCs. The look and feel of the early UFCs changed quite substantially as it evolved due to rule changes. After UFC 5 a change was introduced to allow the ref to stop the action and restart. UFC 12 introduced weight classes. UFC21 introduced rounds. These and other changes produced something quite different from the early UFC.

Anyway, the changes in judo suggested next year are hardly substantial and are not going to 'change the proper look of judo'.

4

u/jephthai Dec 18 '24

All the sports do rule updates; im not disputing that. But the significance of the changes is rarely as high as what judo does every two years.

Your UFC example is irrelevant -- it's a sport that's barely 30 years old. The analogous discussion would be how much judo changed from, say, 1882 to 1902.

For judo to still suffer under constant identity crisis 140 years into its history of having tournaments is just amazing.

2

u/averageharaienjoyer Dec 18 '24

What identity crisis? It is the sport of throwing, controlling or submitting an opponent, always has been, and still is?

15

u/CaptainGeekyPants Dec 18 '24

I mean, this will happen with any ruleset. No matter how finely you slice it, someone will find an an between.

15

u/powerhearse Dec 18 '24

Nah not really. Judo has a specifically complicated problem with this sort of thing compared to most other grappling rulesets

-3

u/mdabek ikkyu Dec 18 '24

Just look at the r/bjj and see all the rants there regarding leg reaping DQs.

5

u/ChickenNuggetSmth gokyu Dec 18 '24

That is very specific to the recent NoGi worlds tournament and a few very bad DQs, or a bit more generally to IBJJF tournaments. But more broadly, while the reaping rules are disliked, they don't lead to a buge amount of DQs. And in many rulesets reaping is legal.

3

u/mistiklest bjj brown Dec 18 '24

or a bit more generally to IBJJF tournaments

Which are still the most attended and prestigious tournaments, especially in the gi.

-1

u/mdabek ikkyu Dec 18 '24

What you've just wrote invalidates the point of only judo has a difficult rules among grappling sports. Another example from BJJ are points for takedowns, this seems crazy that abusing the rule is being taught in academies. Ruleset in any form of grappling is everlasting arms race between competitiors and judges.

5

u/ChickenNuggetSmth gokyu Dec 18 '24

Is the point that the rules are unclear and hard to enforce or is the point that the rules themself are stupid? Because imo in judo there are more controversial reffing decisions. In BJJ there are a fair amount of rules that themself are controversial or unpopular, but generally the judging is at least a bit more straight-forward

-1

u/mdabek ikkyu Dec 18 '24

Hard disagree.

There are refereeing mistakes, since we are humans, but my understanding is that judo referees are being monitored and they will not progress their career if they continuously fail to deliver good performance. What is more, fights are recorded and your coach can disagree with the decision and request for review. You can always ask the general referee for an opinion why something was scored in a way it was and he/she may influence mat referee to change a decision. After a competition you can appeal to a national federation if you disagree with how thigs were handled. There is a clear path and hierarchy in judo.

0

u/powerhearse Dec 19 '24

Reaping isn't a difficult rule, the issues you're talking about are the result of poor refereeing not complicated rulesets. And oh buddy does Judo have a problem with poor refereeing too!

7

u/EchoingUnion Dec 18 '24 edited Dec 18 '24

I wonder why confidently ignorant people within the martial arts sphere always grade Judo on a different curve, unlike any other martial art.

This happens in literally every highly competitive sport in the world. Judo isn't unique in this respect.

1

u/jephthai Dec 18 '24

I'm trying to think of the last time tennis added a new amount of points you can score... judo has flip flopped on ippon/wazari/yuko/koka multiple times in my lifetime.

American football pushed the two point conversion to the pros awhile back... otherwise, can't remember a new or different way to score points. And when was the last time football banned some popular type of play that the refs just didn't like the look of?

The significant rule changes in sumo since the fricking 1600s fit on one page. In sumo when someone does something weird and beats everybody, they glory in it. In judo they say it doesn't look like judo and nerf it. There is no avenue whereby judo can naturally evolve within a coherent framework with competitive innovation.

Yes, other sports have controversial rules. And they have changes on an ongoing basis. But they usually involve the minutia, not core or classic strategy shifts.

IMO, and i love judo, but it's embarrassing.

2

u/Dry_Guest_8961 nidan Apr 14 '25

Tennis changed their scoring system very recently, introducing fifth set tie breakers

1

u/jephthai Apr 14 '25

Oh no, my entire logic is broken ;-). One small rule change that affects a few matches in only four tournaments every year stands in stark contrast against Judo rules that nerf whole gripping strategies, change fundamental scoring criteria that affects all matches everywhere, etc., every two years. Judo has the most unbelievable insecurity about its own rules... it's truly amazing.

2

u/Dry_Guest_8961 nidan Apr 14 '25

I’m no supporter of the rule changes but major sports are continually changing the rules all the time. Look at football (soccer). Introduction of VAR has led to multiple fundamental rule changes and back and forth on things like hand ball and offside over the past number of years to the point many people no longer understand fundamental rules that affect almost every single game played.

I think we shouldn’t change the rules as often as we do but arguing that other sports don’t do it as often, is a poor argument against it because it’s A) irrelevant, B) not true, and C) not a valid comparison because most other major sports are in completely different situations in terms of the sports maturity and the wider public appeal and familiarity with the rules already in existence.

1

u/jephthai Apr 14 '25

I don't keep track of soccer... I did just sit in on an international referee seminar on the koka scoring rule changes. I think trying to pretend that the occasional changes you see in other sports are anywhere close in magnitude to the changes we get frequently in Judo is some kind of stockholm syndrome. We might just have to agree to disagree on your point (B).

On point (A), it's relevant, IMO, because competition is built on shifting sand when the rules change a lot. And relevant to point (C), I think frequently changing rules is an impediment to courting wider public appeal and familiarity. I'll point to the fact that most actively training judokas get confused about how the rule changes are applied, it's hopeless for spectators.

1

u/powerhearse Dec 18 '24

It's far worse than most grappling combat sports though

7

u/calm_down_dearest Dec 18 '24

Big football (soccer) fan here. Do you know how many amazing goals I've seen chalked off because of a marginal offside?

Would it be nice if the goals had stood? Yes. Are the rules there for a reason? Also yes.

4

u/Uchimatty Dec 18 '24

It’s a cool throw, but wonderful is not the word I would use. This variation has no advantage over modern kouchi makikomi. There is little chance of uke’s leg escaping until Tori is already on the ground (at which point this self-leg grab also will not prevent uke from stepping out), and grabbing with the left arm creates the wrong angle for the throw.

4

u/kwan_e yonkyu Dec 18 '24

Maybe no advantage in general, but at least for that specific situation, it looked to be the appropriate adjustment.